Yet Another CTE Review

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Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
PART I – WHAT’S MISSING

I've watched the DVD a couple of times, but have only spent a little time "trying CTE out" at a table. Why haven't I tried it out more at a table? Because the DVD doesn't clearly explain how to use the system - it's vague and non-specific in some key ways that I'll explain. Individually and collectively, these key areas of vagueness are where "aiming by feel" comes into CTE.

As you can probably already tell, my answer to the most popular question is: no, CTE is not "exact". In fact, it doesn’t even really pretend to be, although Stan and his students might not realize that.

The key areas in which CTE is vague are:

1. Selecting the correct “aim point”
2. Selecting the correct pivot direction
3. Placing the cue stick on the correct pre-pivot line

The first two of these (selecting the aim point and pivot direction) are admitted openly by Stan. He says “experience and recognition skills are KEY in determining correct OB aim points” and “experience shows which pivot is correct”. No specific instructions are ever given for how to select these two key elements of the system; they simply must be learned by experience - in other words, “by feel”.

The third key area of vagueness, how to place the cue stick on the correct pre-pivot line, is never admitted to be vague. In fact, instructions that sound like they might be specific (but aren’t really) are presented, making it appear that Stan either sincerely believes he is being specific or wants us to believe he is.

The main ingredients in the “equation” for where to place the cue stick are the two “vision lines” - the center-to-edge line and the edge-to-aimpoint line. We’re told to “establish the visual” using these two lines, and that this visual “locks in the two CB edges” and tells us where the CB’s “aiming center” is. But we’re never told two things that are essential to make sense of that:

1. What does “establish the visual” mean? Where should our eyes be? Looking straight down one line or the other, or somewhere in between? (Except on rare shots there’s no way to sight down both lines from the same eye position.) Our eye position is what “locks in the CB edges” and shows us where the CB’s “aiming center” is, but there’s no specific instruction for locating our eyes for that purpose.

2. Once we (somehow) “establish our visual” and find the CB "aiming center", where do we place our cue stick? Beside the line from our eyes to the CB center? Parallel to it? This seems most likely, but again it’s never spelled out. We're advised to "slide the bridge hand into place", but are never told where the slide should start or end.

Either one of these missing instructions is a wide-open door for more “feel” to enter the aiming picture, and remember, we’ve already identified two more areas, selecting the aim point and pivot direction, where “feel” is explicitly used. (Note: I'm assuming that the pivot length is well defined for specific CB/OB distances.)

So again, CTE is not an “exact” system. But so what? Does relying on “feel” make CTE a “bad” system? I think the answer to that is probably different for every player, and I think it might depend on what positive benefits other than an inexact aiming “formula” might come from using CTE. That’s the topic of PART II - coming soon to a thread near you.

pj
chgo
 
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While you guys are reviewing CTE, I'm putting out dozens of students who are ready to use CTE against you. Go figure.
randyg
 
PJ-

The questions posed seem valid requests for further clarification.

Whereas, the system approach seems predicated on the coordination of two simultaneous visual benchmarks to attain and confirm the initial pre-pivot body, bridge and cue alignment to the cb-as much clarification of this 'visual' as possible, is welcome.

Maybe that clarification has been offered and presented by Spidey and others(Mikjary), but may have been lost or confused in the passionate back and forth that has already taken place.

I appreciate the questions asked.

Now, lets hope they can be addressed with a spirit of aid and helpfulness. If that means creating a 'closed' discussion thread here or elsewhere where Dvd owners can kick this around-great. Or maybe, since the visualizations are so critical-maybe accomplished practioners in a given area can show us at the table in a group session(bring your dvd-admission ticket).

Just my take.

Patrick-thanks for furthering a civil discussion.

Take care
 
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Feel means many things to many people, lets leave that alone and take that out of this cte since everything in the learning process needs "feel" and that is one of your "fall back on" opinions.

Exact , how are people using this word in relation to stans system anyway and what does this mean?

Stan pretty much tells and shows you a number of times where to place the cue stick in the manual chapters and even draws a line << that line is the CTEL) across the table and shows you where!


quote from the review:
1. What does “establish the visual” mean? Where should our eyes be? Looking straight down one line or the other, or somewhere in between? (Except on rare shots there’s no way to sight down both lines from the same eye position.) Our eye position is what “locks in the CB edges” and shows us where the CB’s “aiming center” is, but there’s no specific instruction for locating our eyes for that purpose.
?????????? you have trouble figuring this out? no way to sight down both lines on rare shots, why cant you?

2. Once we (somehow) “establish our visual” and find the CB "aiming center", where do we place our cue stick? Beside the line from our eyes to the CB center? Parallel to it? This seems most likely, but again it’s never spelled out. We're advised to "slide the bridge hand into place", but are never told where the slide should start or end.

I already answered this above in the 3rd answer.

Either one of these missing instructions is a wide-open door for more “feel” to enter the aiming picture, and remember, we’ve already identified two more areas, selecting the aim point and pivot direction, where “feel” is explicitly used. (Note: I'm assuming that the pivot length is well defined for specific CB/OB distances.)
I already answered this above in the 1st answer.


Hey Pj if no trolls come into the thread and flame it up, you will get the answer to your questions!!!!!!
 
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Perhaps when you get things figured out and you put in more time on the table you will become proficient with CTE/Pro One.

Until you become proficient with CTE/Pro One, I don't think you are qualified to tell me why it works so well for so many people.

I'm serious and I'm still betting on you PJ. U can do it.

JoeyA
 
Regarding eye position. Dr. Dave asked for clearer information as to where the vision center should be located when one is sighting down the CTEL and simultaneously(?) down the SL. Patrick is similarly unclear about eye position. I also asked about this.

When I sight down the CTEL line, my vision center is in a particular place . When I then try to follow Stan's instructions to "shift" my eyes to the SL, without losing my "visual" of the CTEL, what does that mean? To me, it means I must move my head, so my vision center alligns with the SL, and is no longer aligned with the CTEL? It can't be in both places at the same time. So if my vision center is no longer in the proper place to accurately perceive the CTEL, how am I supposed to continue referencing the CTEL? This is the fourth time I'm aware of that this information has been asked for. Please someone just answer this single question, then we can go on to another one.
 
You get behind the ball then pick up the ctel and then you adjust your body until you can pick up the ctel and the aim line together, you now have made the proper body adjustments behind the ball, now move forward like Stan says and slide your cue into position just like he shows where he has drawn the line across the table.

Ctel line is the main line.
aim line positions your body behind the ball where you need to be for the cut shots. This is why there are ABC reference points, they move your body around slightly, but you need to hold the ctel while doing this or you will throw off everything and you will be lost in space.

This is really simple stuff, honestly and how i do it.
 
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Champ, you make it sound as if you've got two vision centers. I've only got one and I'm asking where it should be located. For example: first it should be located along the CTEL, then it should be moved to allign with the SL. Is that correct?
 
Champ, you make it sound as if you've got two vision centers. I've only got one and I'm asking where it should be located. For example: first it should be located along the CTEL, then it should be moved to allign with the SL. Is that correct?

I explained what the aim line does is all, do the first part i have written, do you have the dvd?
 
Champ, you say get behind the ball then pick up the CTEL. Does that mean my vision center is alligned with the CTEL, yes or no? Then you say to adjust my body until I can pick up the CTEL and the aim line together, but you have not said to move my eyes. Does that mean that my vision center is still alligned with the CTEL - yes or no?

Yes, I purchased the DVD.

Let me explain why eye position is important. At about 33:22 of the video, Stan presents a single ball position for three different shots. He stands back from the cue ball the same distance each time when "establishing his visuals", but in shot one he sees the left edge of the cueball at A and in shot three he sees the left edge of the cueball at B. How in the hell can that be. Some one is crazy here, but I don't think it is me I'll be happy to apologize if it is me.

Let's go thru this one more time: The cue ball and object ball are in the same position for each shot. Stan's head is the same distance from the cueball for each shot. In shots one and three he alligns the center of the cueball with the right edge of the object ball, but in shot one he sees A lined up with the left edge of the cueball, and in shot three he sees B lined up with the left edge of the cueball. That is not possible unless he is relocating his vision center.
 
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Champ, you say get behind the ball then pick up the CTEL. Does that mean my vision center is alligned with the CTEL, yes or no? Then you say to adjust my body until I can pick up the CTEL and the aim line together, but you have not said to move my eyes. Does that mean that my vision center is still alligned with the CTEL - yes or no?

Yes, I purchased the DVD.

Let me explain why eye position is important. At about 33:22 of the video, Stan presents a single ball position for three different shots. He stands back from the cue ball the same distance each time when "establishing his visuals", but in shot one he sees the left edge of the cueball at A and in shot three he sees the left edge of the cueball at B. How in the hell can that be. Some one is crazy here, but I don't think it is me I'll be happy to apologize if it is me.

Let's go thru this one more time: The cue ball and object ball are in the same position for each shot. Stan's head is the same distance from the cueball for each shot. In shots one and three he alligns the center of the cueball with the right edge of the object ball, but in shot one he sees A lined up with the left edge of the cueball, and in shot three he sees B lined up with the left edge of the cueball. That is not possible unless he is relocating his vision center.

I new u had the wrong time :) he is relocating his vision and his body for all three shots, slightly, 100%. i know this because i can make/have all 3 shots. Anytime you have to use a different reference point you must relocate your vision center/body, as you call it slightly.

Look at the 2 shot option that stan shoots at around 24:30 ok, now place your mouse courser on stans sons nose for the first shot when u notice he is locked in and about to drop and hold it there, now when he shoots the second shot you can see he has adjusted to make the second shot, now you will understand what im saying.
 
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Champ, you say get behind the ball then pick up the CTEL. Does that mean my vision center is alligned with the CTEL, yes or no? Then you say to adjust my body until I can pick up the CTEL and the aim line together, but you have not said to move my eyes. Does that mean that my vision center is still alligned with the CTEL - yes or no?

Yes, I purchased the DVD.

Let me explain why eye position is important. At about 33:22 of the video, Stan presents a single ball position for three different shots. He stands back from the cue ball the same distance each time when "establishing his visuals", but in shot one he sees the left edge of the cueball at A and in shot three he sees the left edge of the cueball at B. How in the hell can that be. Some one is crazy here, but I don't think it is me I'll be happy to apologize if it is me.

Let's go thru this one more time: The cue ball and object ball are in the same position for each shot. Stan's head is the same distance from the cueball for each shot. In shots one and three he alligns the center of the cueball with the right edge of the object ball, but in shot one he sees A lined up with the left edge of the cueball, and in shot three he sees B lined up with the left edge of the cueball. That is not possible unless he is relocating his vision center.

Shank,
Go take another look at that shot you think is the same shot. Look at the position of the cue ball relationship to the side pocket nearest Stan.

You may be mistaken about it being the same shot.
 
Shank,
Go take another look at that shot you think is the same shot. Look at the position of the cue ball relationship to the side pocket nearest Stan.

You may be mistaken about it being the same shot.

JoeyA, my point is this. Stan's head and the balls are in the same position but one time he sees A and another time he sees B. Nothing has moved, his visuals should be the same.
 
Feel means many things to many people, lets leave that alone and take that out of this cte since everything in the learning process needs "feel" and that is one of your "fall back on" opinions.

Exact , how are people using this word in relation to stans system anyway and what does this mean?
These words have specific meanings in this discussion, whether you understand them or not. CTE involves feel and is not exact.

Stan pretty much tells and shows you a number of times where to place the cue stick in the manual chapters
No, in fact he doesn't. If it's so simple and obvious where the stick goes, why don't you just describe it?

and even draws a line << that line is the CTEL) across the table and shows you where!
If the cue stick always goes next to the CTE line, then there are only two cut angles (CTE + left pivot and CTE + right pivot). If it doesn't always go next to the CTE line, where does it go?

no way to sight down both lines... why cant you?
Because the lines have to cross at the eye position in order to do that (this isn't obvious to you?), and that only happens when using the A or C aim line and the CB/OB are a certain distance apart (1/2 the distance from the CB to the eyes). It never happens when using the B aim line (which is parallel with the CTE line).

Once we (somehow) “establish our visual” and find the CB "aiming center", where do we place our cue stick? Beside the line from our eyes to the CB center? Parallel to it? This seems most likely, but again it’s never spelled out. We're advised to "slide the bridge hand into place", but are never told where the slide should start or end.
I already answered this above in the 3rd answer.
No, you didn't. You don't understand the questions.

Either one of these missing instructions is a wide-open door for more “feel” to enter the aiming picture, and remember, we’ve already identified two more areas, selecting the aim point and pivot direction, where “feel” is explicitly used. (Note: I'm assuming that the pivot length is well defined for specific CB/OB distances.)
I already answered this above in the 1st answer.
This isn't a question.

pj
chgo
 
JoeyA, my point is this. Stan's head and the balls are in the same position but one time he sees A and another time he sees B. Nothing has moved, his visuals should be the same.

I think I know the shots you are looking at but my point is that the cue ball MOVES in each of these shots. Maybe you should share the timeline for each shot you are speaking of. I will look at each shot you are speaking of and give it a hard look, but I think if you look hard you will see that the cue ball has been placed in a different position on the table for each shot. If this is not the case, post the timeline and I will look at each shot you reference.
JoeyA
 
Joey:
Until you become proficient with CTE/Pro One, I don't think you are qualified to tell me why it works so well for so many people.
I'm bound to come closer than anybody who uses it - you guys can't explain anything about it at all.

pj
chgo
 
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