You Think Pool in The States is in Bad Shape....

T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Apparently our national organizing body (Canadian Billiard and Snooker Association) can't find a location to host either a 9 or 10 ball National Championship this year...lol

Not sure how that works though. Maybe they print some fliers and hand them out to people on the street, or I guess in this day and age it's more akin to a post on your own FB page. Either way, I'm in awe of how pathetic that is.

So, if you think organized pool is in the dumper where you live. It could be worse. You could live in Canada 🇨🇦
 
That's not good at all JV ! Granted the last time I was in Canada it was for union meetings in Toronto where after the meetings a friend of mine and I found the colored stone a nice pool hall not to far from the Sheraton Center or the CN Tower .

I'd think there could be something in Calgary or Edmonton or in the middle so to speak .

Facebook may be the ticket for younger people as a form of communication and I'm sure some of us older folks also but many of us and myself included don't use Facebook , tic tac or whatever is the new next best thing .

I've been a convention coordinator for a trapping association and posters , radio and newspaper adds get to the majority of people , word of mouth is good to its difficult at best on a large scale .
What if any is the Canadian version of Billiards Digest maybe a good place to start and sending posters out to the difference pool halls but finding a place to have a tournament first I can't help you with sadly .
 
There is an origin story that cue games were popularized during military deployments.

Several posters here claim West Point or other military installations had billiard programs.

Today the DoD (department of defense, USA) does not endorse billiards as an official sport. Bowling is on the list, not billiards.


My suggestion is if Canada is not organized, maybe the Canadian armed forces would be interested. Interest in military is at all time lows, sports programs are helpful at recruiting.

Based on other posts billiards attracts more engineers and science tech people that other sports.
 
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Rusty in Montana said:
That's not good at all JV ! Granted the last time I was in Canada it was for union meetings in Toronto where after the meetings a friend of mine and I found the colored stone a nice pool hall not to far from the Sheraton Center or the CN Tower .

I'd think there could be something in Calgary or Edmonton or in the middle so to speak .

Facebook may be the ticket for younger people as a form of communication and I'm sure some of us older folks also but many of us and myself included don't use Facebook , tic tac or whatever is the new next best thing .

I've been a convention coordinator for a trapping association and posters , radio and newspaper adds get to the majority of people , word of mouth is good to its difficult at best on a large scale .
What if any is the Canadian version of Billiards Digest maybe a good place to start and sending posters out to the difference pool halls but finding a place to have a tournament first I can't help you with sadly .
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Well the reality with player attendance is that it's costly for anyone not vaguely local to the host location. When you're dealing with such a large geographical area as Canada, the CBSA can't win in that regard. That's not the problem though. It rooms not wanting to host. ...or maybe not even knowing that they have the opportunity.

Last year one room in Toronto hosted all three events back to back. It made for a long week of pool, but it did represent a one trip adventure for those around the country wanting to play. I'm sure those travelling from either coast for the 8ball (went off first and started in the middle of the week), stuck around for the 9 ball (last event/weekend) and probably threw their hats in for the 10b which was sandwiched in between. This year there was a "RSVP" of sorts for only 8ball to gauge interest prior to the announcement of the event. With the benefit of hindsight, I'm guessing that was to weigh the potential attendance and subsequent revenue that same room would expect. I can only assume they saw such little value (revenue) in the 9/10 events that a similar "RSVP" didn't even happen.

I fully understand that business is business and rooms are/should be doing what's best for them. However, it speaks volumes to how little rooms in Canada actually care about the game. Not even willing to sacrifice 2/3 days (max) for sake of having a 2023 Canadian 9ball champ. ...and when I say sacrifice that's under the assumption that their sales on those days would be less than the norm.

The players on the West coast continually complain about it typically being hosted in Ontario, (and I don't blame them). However here's the chance for one of their rooms to step up and prove why it should be in their neck of the woods, but there's apparently no takers either.

Brutal...
 
I have no background or knowledge about organizing pool events, so take this as a genuine question. Why is it that Turning Stone is able to host two big tournaments a year at the Turning Stone casino but the CBSA can’t even get a pool room? Obviously part of the answer will have to do with revenue streams from the Joss Tour and not needing to pay travel fees to players qualifying for world championships (I’m assuming that’s a thing?)

But is the CBSA looking into methods of boosting revenue to reinvest into the game? If so, the first goal should be generating a budget to stage the event outside of a pool room.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I have no background or knowledge about organizing pool events, so take this as a genuine question. Why is it that Turning Stone is able to host two big tournaments a year at the Turning Stone casino but the CBSA can’t even get a pool room? Obviously part of the answer will have to do with revenue streams from the Joss Tour and not needing to pay travel fees to players qualifying for world championships (I’m assuming that’s a thing?)

But is the CBSA looking into methods of boosting revenue to reinvest into the game? If so, the first goal should be generating a budget to stage the event outside of a pool room.
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None of the events last year (8, 9, 10) managed a field of 64. 8 and 10 were in the range of 40, but of course they were during the work week.

Entry was/is staggered into three categories based on Fargo. Lets call the average $250 a player, plus some admin fee of about 20. The bulk of that money did not come directly back to the players. Whether or not they assisted players with travel, I cannot say. I do know there this a very strong contingent a of players a handful of hours away in Quebec that didn't bother playing. Why...?..., who knows.

It's my understanding that the small group that work the CBSA do so pro-bono, so it's not like they're union fat cats collecting dues and sitting on their hands. Hard to expect them to take time away from what pays their bills to source sponsorships and venues that require set up like TurningStone.

Not sure what will bring along change. If anything ever will. I just know the current state of affairs is pretty damn bad.
 
Donating a pool table to a youth center and sending a pro to do talks would benefit Canadians.

It is a longer term approach to solving your Canadian issues. Its called grow the solutions.

Start a newsletter for Canadians. Be proactive. There are lots of people with free time and money that don't know about pool.

Network and find those people. Its about finding someone that wants to represent Canada in an international field of the elite pool players of the world from established systems and instructors.

Then there is Canada. Maybe a handful of choices with the newest and youngest Hall of Fame instructors. Usually the parents have the idea for their children.
 
One solution is to have local qualifiers that partly fund the winner's travel. That requires local volunteers to organize them and local players who will enter even though Willie is playing. This can reduce the number of players at the main event which makes it easier to run.
 
The_JV said:
Apparently our national organizing body (Canadian Billiard and Snooker Association) can't find a location to host either a 9 or 10 ball National Championship this year...lol

Not sure how that works though. Maybe they print some fliers and hand them out to people on the street, or I guess in this day and age it's more akin to a post on your own FB page. Either way, I'm in awe of how pathetic that is.

So, if you think organized pool is in the dumper where you live. It could be worse. You could live in Canada 🇨🇦
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Perhaps, just maybe it my be due to the fact the Canada is on fire :unsure:??? Perhaps some of the folks that
manage or oversee the CBSA might be otherwise occupied?

hank
 
The CBSA has been beyond awful forever. I recall a Canadian Championship held in Toronto not long ago that ended up with something like 4 women in the field and an equally abysmal number in the men's events. The old boys club that runs the CBSA still act like it's 1980 and refuses to do anything to further the sport or increase participation. When you pair their large entry fees with payouts that are laughably low, there is simply no motivation for anyone from anywhere other than Toronto to attend.

When was the last time that you saw any of their events streamed? If they do manage to stream something, the video quality is terrible and borders on unwatchable. For comparison, western Canadian events at local halls regularly fill large fields with VERY strong players and offer exceptional quality streams with very good commentary.

The truth of the matter is that the CBSA has thumbed their noses at the west for so long that we simply don't care what they do anymore. No local room owners in this area are going to bend over backwards to run an event that ties up their room for an extended period and is overseen by the CBSA.
 
Malaysians are also split on whether having a national sports program is in the interest of the sports or more for the benefit of the government.

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The_JV said:
None of the events last year (8, 9, 10) managed a field of 64. 8 and 10 were in the range of 40, but of course they were during the work week.

Entry was/is staggered into three categories based on Fargo. Lets call the average $250 a player, plus some admin fee of about 20. The bulk of that money did not come directly back to the players. Whether or not they assisted players with travel, I cannot say. I do know there this a very strong contingent a of players a handful of hours away in Quebec that didn't bother playing. Why...?..., who knows.

It's my understanding that the small group that work the CBSA do so pro-bono, so it's not like they're union fat cats collecting dues and sitting on their hands. Hard to expect them to take time away from what pays their bills to source sponsorships and venues that require set up like TurningStone.

Not sure what will bring along change. If anything ever will. I just know the current state of affairs is pretty damn bad.
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I certainly recognize they are all volunteers. But volunteer led and operated organizations can achieve a lot if it is well organized with a sufficient number of people. This is from experience as a (unpaid) senior leader in a volunteer org. I did around 5-10 hours a week on top of my full time job and led a few different functions with a local partner who also did a similar amount of hours.

I don’t know how they are structured or how many people the CBSA has working with them, but I always get the feeling it is a small group. If that’s the case, I would look into recruiting volunteers to focus on more specific roles and advertise outside the pool community on something like Charity Village to increase the potential pool of applicant. Most of our staff were college/university students or recent grads looking to get some practical experience on their CV. It’s doable if you have good and passionate leaders. But one thing is for certain, the pool world in general needs to step away from thinking ex-pros make good executives.
 
The_JV said:
Apparently our national organizing body (Canadian Billiard and Snooker Association) can't find a location to host either a 9 or 10 ball National Championship this year...lol

Not sure how that works though. Maybe they print some fliers and hand them out to people on the street, or I guess in this day and age it's more akin to a post on your own FB page. Either way, I'm in awe of how pathetic that is.

So, if you think organized pool is in the dumper where you live. It could be worse. You could live in Canada 🇨🇦S
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I feel your pain. It's very similar situation with finding a venue for the USBA Nationals.
Re: 3-Cushion National Championships.

It seems only one room in the Nation is interested. Carom Cafe.

I have no problems with Carom Cafe but what's wrong with this picture, where no room believes its in their best interest to support the game at that level?
 
SpinDoctor said:
The CBSA has been beyond awful forever. I recall a Canadian Championship held in Toronto not long ago that ended up with something like 4 women in the field and an equally abysmal number in the men's events. The old boys club that runs the CBSA still act like it's 1980 and refuses to do anything to further the sport or increase participation. When you pair their large entry fees with payouts that are laughably low, there is simply no motivation for anyone from anywhere other than Toronto to attend.

When was the last time that you saw any of their events streamed? If they do manage to stream something, the video quality is terrible and borders on unwatchable. For comparison, western Canadian events at local halls regularly fill large fields with VERY strong players and offer exceptional quality streams with very good commentary.

The truth of the matter is that the CBSA has thumbed their noses at the west for so long that we simply don't care what they do anymore. No local room owners in this area are going to bend over backwards to run an event that ties up their room for an extended period and is overseen by the CBSA.
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Can't argue against any of that...

Entry isn't cheap, but not second mortgage level considering it's supposed to be a "national championship". The entry is lightly staggered based on fargo. Presumably because they're trying to pull in "more dead" money to fund the event. I can say that my 5/6th finish in 8ball last year awarded me enough to cover the entry expenses for the week. I certainly wasn't complaining....

I struggle with faulting person(s) that are managing on their free time. I do know there was a call out for volunteers to join the CBSA to help out. Other than I think one of the Ashton twins, I don't know if anyone else stepped up to the plate. Should be said that the ladies championships are being held out West this year, (where Ms. Ashton is located).

This is definitely one of those situations that requires someone(s) to bite the bullet first, if they want change. I don't necessary fault the West coast for their feelings toward the CBSA. What I hope is that some see the efforts of Ms. Ashton and follow her lead.
 
With the fires going their running out of wood for cues , we have pool leagues but 3/4 of the people are hammered nobody gives a s--t.
 
The_JV said:
Apparently our national organizing body (Canadian Billiard and Snooker Association) can't find a location to host either a 9 or 10 ball National Championship this year...lol

Not sure how that works though. Maybe they print some fliers and hand them out to people on the street, or I guess in this day and age it's more akin to a post on your own FB page. Either way, I'm in awe of how pathetic that is.

So, if you think organized pool is in the dumper where you live. It could be worse. You could live in Canada 🇨🇦
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Finding a location is pretty easy. It's just that the CBSA doesn't have the money or wants to spend that kind of money on a place to host the national championship. Any casino or convention center would love to host an event you just need to put out the $$

If you build it they will come.
 
Zerksies said:
Finding a location is pretty easy. It's just that the CBSA doesn't have the money or wants to spend that kind of money on a place to host the national championship. Any casino or convention center would love to host an event you just need to put out the $$

If you build it they will come.
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No typing on a keyboard saying how easy it is, is easy...lol. ;)

I'm going to guess that the CBSA doesn't have the money to rent a location and quality tables well in advance of the event, in the hopes that people decide they want to come to said event. I know pool leagues do it all the time. However I think there's a massive difference between investment/expectation for those events.

I'm totally unaware if there are CBSA fund raising events. That probably gives us our answer...lol

Using myself as an example. I invested somewhere between $700-800 in just entries last year. That's well North of what a team of 5 would pay to enter a national league event. I'm investing to compete against some of the strongest the country has to offer. Well at least the ones that saw fit to play. I'm over my head and have to consider the investment straight up dead money. Now if I had to factor in cross country travel costs... well, my pockets are only so deep. Actually, during last year's event I even heard the organizers talk about having the tourneys out West. I told them that I definitely wouldn't play. That shouldn't be shocking as I'm sure 80% of the field in such events are no different than myself, and see it as a bucket list item, as long as it's local. So, it's a tough go to rent a space, tables/mechanics and staff, hoping to have a field that covers cost. ...especially when history shows that you can't fill a 64 player bracket.

Canadian league team national events are again 90% dead money and 80% local talent. Regardless of where it is in the country. However it's at the most a $500 entry split up amongst the team. Teams usually share rooms, etc... Most teams measure success on standing upright on the second day. League events are about the party for the majority, not the competition. Singles national, (used to be gateway to the worlds) isn't about drinking. It's about winning. When the players know they aren't going to party and don't stand a hope in hell of winning. It's a hard sell..

Building requires investment. I'm not defending the CBSA. Just saying it's easy to blame them because they're the ones holding the flag. No one else wants to take any blame but everyone that has an axe to grind could probably make a difference on some level. Imagine the potential traction the CBSA could gain in the West coast if the nationals were mentioned on some of the great streams coming out of the Calgary area... Not saying they have to, just saying they could if they wanted to.
 
The_JV said:
No typing on a keyboard saying how easy it is, is easy...lol. ;)

I'm going to guess that the CBSA doesn't have the money to rent a location and quality tables well in advance of the event, in the hopes that people decide they want to come to said event. I know pool leagues do it all the time. However I think there's a massive difference between investment/expectation for those events.

I'm totally unaware if there are CBSA fund raising events. That probably gives us our answer...lol

Using myself as an example. I invested somewhere between $700-800 in just entries last year. That's well North of what a team of 5 would pay to enter a national league event. I'm investing to compete against some of the strongest the country has to offer. Well at least the ones that saw fit to play. I'm over my head and have to consider the investment straight up dead money. Now if I had to factor in cross country travel costs... well, my pockets are only so deep. Actually, during last year's event I even heard the organizers talk about having the tourneys out West. I told them that I definitely wouldn't play. That shouldn't be shocking as I'm sure 80% of the field in such events are no different than myself, and see it as a bucket list item, as long as it's local. So, it's a tough go to rent a space, tables/mechanics and staff, hoping to have a field that covers cost. ...especially when history shows that you can't fill a 64 player bracket.

Canadian league team national events are again 90% dead money and 80% local talent. Regardless of where it is in the country. However it's at the most a $500 entry split up amongst the team. Teams usually share rooms, etc... Most teams measure success on standing upright on the second day. League events are about the party for the majority, not the competition. Singles national, (used to be gateway to the worlds) isn't about drinking. It's about winning. When the players know they aren't going to party and don't stand a hope in hell of winning. It's a hard sell..

Building requires investment. I'm not defending the CBSA. Just saying it's easy to blame them because they're the ones holding the flag. No one else wants to take any blame but everyone that has an axe to grind could probably make a difference on some level. Imagine the potential traction the CBSA could gain in the West coast if the nationals were mentioned on some of the great streams coming out of the Calgary area... Not saying they have to, just saying they could if they wanted to.
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You either have the money to rent a place or you don't it's that simple
 
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