Your aiming technique

Interesting conversation yesterday

As you might already know, Moke Sigel is from Rochester, NY. Yesterday I was talking with some of the older and very strong players about Mike. What they said is that when Mike was in his teens he could run 30 or so balls until one day when he asked about aiming.

Mike thought everyone always looked at the CB, they corrected him and told him he should be looking at the OB. Amazed, Mike then changed his aiming to OB focus and the next day started running over 100.
 
You ABSOLUTELY must be looking at the object ball when you stroke your shot. My suggestion to watch the cue ball was (as you may notice ) listed as "post object ball contact". What I'm trying to say is, rather than jump up after you stroke your shot, stay down and follow the cue ball path.
 
RunoutalloverU said:
why guys thanks for the responses ive enjoyed reading them. A few observations....its not your stroke. I mean up to a certain point it isnt. And I think a simple illustration shows this. I see a lot of ok players with beautiful strokes, but of course they miss a lot. And when they miss they inevitably look back at their arm and do the whole obligatory practice stroke after I miss thing. But I hate to tell them it isnt their stroke, its the fact that they have no consistent aiming technique therefore no real true consistent play. And after you have an aiming technique that makes pocketing balls easy, and yes all shots easy, you then can work on cue ball control. How many times have you got perfect shape on your next shot, but missed. Or you make a good shot, only to not get good position. You need both and you need both consistently. I know it isnt easy, but I play on a west coast tour, and believe me if you can break and run out (not just play some silly "ghost" game in your garage) against an opponent your well on your way to beating a lot of decent to good players.
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Every single word of this post is the exact extreme opposite of how I see things. It's the stroke, not the aiming, and if you want to progress you should lose the systems. Just figured I'd throw it out there...
 
RunoutalloverU said:
Hey its my first post on AZ, but I am an A player. And I think the only way to get to A status and above to lets say world class, is to have a consistent and highly accurate aiming technique. I mean where you can play on triple shimmed GC pockets as well as WPBA pockets. Now I have tried to explain with some fervor my aiming technique to decent players who were inconsistent. But the problem I find is when I get to the part where I can just "see" it, that's where the oh I get it stops. So the question is to other semi-professional to professional players is... Do you have an aiming technique in which part of it you can teach, but then some of it becomes intangible. Because believe me I wish I could teach it, it would make me some sweet bucks. Thanks guys.
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I may be wrong, but I smell a sales pitch coming soon to a forum near you.
 
Rich93 posted:

"As for me, I'm firmly in the 'you just see it' camp. If you can't just 'see it', you haven't played enough or maybe haven't been paying close enough attention."
Every time you hit a ball, you have another demonstration of what hit produces what path. Pay attention to these demonstrations! After a while they will become second nature. You can accelerate the process by hitting the same shot many times in a row. Pay attention to the collision. Pretty soon you will be mentally saying "That looks a little too thick .... now maybe it's a little thin .... now it looks about right", and fire. The more exprienced you become, the faster this mental calculation will take place."

How is this not an aiming system??
Shot #1: A very slight cut almost the full length of the table.

Player standing over shot and analyzing what he sees: "Hmmm, this shot is just a little off from being straight in. I'm going to have to contact it a hair from center. If I hit it straight dead center, it misses. If I go too far over from center, I overcut and it misses.

Player now down over shot either lining up tip of cue to spot on OB or lining up CB just a hair off center. (going back and forth from dead center hit to overcut and then back to somewhere in between) and silently confirms to himself...'That's it, dead on.'

You're using experience to tell you that it's a thick or thin cut and how thin you have to hit it. You then line up the CB and or Cue to accomodate the angle and strike the OB where it needs to be hit. That's an aiming system. (you could call it the "experience tells me", or the "thin or thick cut" or the "I gotta hit the OB about an 1/8" off from center, which is contact point aiming", or "lininig up my cue to the spot just off center, which is cue stick aiming", or "CB center ball just a hair off from OB center ball, which is ball retationship aiming". These are ALL ways to aim and see a shot. They're ALL aiming systems done in a split second.

Shot #2: You have an almost 90 degree cut into the side pocket.

Experienced player analyzing shot: "Damn, I gotta hit this ball sooo thin that only the skin comes off of the CB and OB".

Player now lining up shot: "I gotta get EDGE to EDGE. (liniing up CB to OB) Nope, that's too thick...(moves over some) Nope that's outside the OB too far and I'll miss it entirely...(moves back over) There we go, right on.
This is the EDGE to EDGE aiming method that randyg mentioned in S.A.M. What is different here between what randy teaches and what EVERBODY has to do?? NOTHING! They re an aiming systems. You must align and hit it EDGE to EDGE.

acedotcom posted:

"As someone who, once upon a time, could 'just see it,' but who now can't, I know exactly what you're talking about. Not only could I instantly see the contact point on the ob, but I could just as quickly see the corresponding point on the cb that would line up with it and the target line. When you can see like that, you can't help wondering about all the talk about aiming systems - it's like someone writing a 3 volume treatise on taking a sip of water. "
All the talk about aiming systems is that you use one. Seeing the contact point on the OB and the corresponding point on the OB is either the "Contact point aiming system", "Equal and Opposite aiming system", or "Joe Tucker's aiming system".

The Kiss posted:

"One old timer who has long sinced passed told me a bit of rather unique advice...If a room is dark and has over head lighting OLD SCHOOL..the reflection on the object ball will show you the path to the pocket...It is not exact and you have to adjust a bit...But it works pretty damn well"

This is called "The Lights Aiming System" and has been well documented for years. Hal showed it to me and the old timer was right, it does work.

It's funny how all of you guys that say you don't use aiming systems, ALL USE AIMING SYSTEMS. (I think you just hate the dirtiest word in pool, "SYSTEMS")
 
Rifle site

Several years ago I wrote an article for Cues and News here in Youngstown Ohio about aiming and I learned a few things. First I considered rifle site (one eyed shooter) versus two eyed shooter stance. At a pro tournament I studied the likes of Strickland, Varner, Hopkins, and some local A - B shooters.

It turns out (meaning I won’t tell the whole story) that pros site with both eyes on short shots but tend to use one eye on length of table shots. I thought that was strange until this year when I too found that on long shots where a thin cut is needed a rifle site is needed for consistency.

If you think it is not true try this, place an object ball one ball width off the center of the foot rail. Place the cue ball a half diamond (or less) off the center of the head string and cut the object ball into either pocket (first the left then the right pocket). If your aim is accurate you should be able to alternate sides and make it three times in a row alternating sides. Seems that you need to rifle site to hit that spot exactly, every time.

I conclude that a rifle site is a must have for any player. We use two eyes on short shots to assist with estimating the cue ball return. We use rifle sites for extreme accuracy. I decided to change my game and go to a rifle site on every shot for consistency and concentration. Now I have to think through position much more thoroughly and it improves my game.

While I agree with most of the teachers that nearly all useful aiming systems use some version of the ghost ball system, I think that it is not often emphasized that all systems require the player to line up the centers of the balls. When stroke is not a factor, aim fails because the shooter is often playing above or below center with the cue stick and stops aiming the centers of the balls. Therefore, in my thinking all shots begin with center on the cue stick, cue ball and object ball. Changes are made after the line of site has been established.

Finally, it is also seldom mentioned that a good player has to learn to shoot flat footed like a pistol shooter. Standing on the balls on one’s feet ruins many a good shot.

So for me aiming is:
1. Stand behind the shot and think.
2. Pre-aim from the standing position.
3. Get down and line up the centers with a rifle site.
4. Use the ghost ball and then adjust for English as need be.
5. Stand flat footed and stroke.
6. See the cue ball hit the object ball before moving any other part of the body.

I agree there are different strokes for different folks. None-the-less the centers of the balls must be lined up in any system.

Pros can often show us what they do but it is difficult to tell others what they do.
Explain to me how you can ride a bike! There is a specific good technique that can be learned.
We tell others to "relax" but what does that mean? Yet it too can be learned. I think a pro who has played for many years uses a system such as two eyes for short shots and one eye for long shots but I doubt that many of them know that they use this technique. It is not a secret, it is just that most people cannot verbalize these ideas they have discovered.

Playing pool is like any other sport, there are fundamentals that are difficult to articulate, but they can be learned and moved to a semi-automatic process. It is not necessary to make every mistake that every other player made to become a good player. That is why we send our kids to school.

First you should be able to state what you do as well as you can verbalize it. The you can concentrate on making this technique automatic. Good play requires "flow" but one must learn to shoot first. The more you know what you want to do the easier it is to do it. This requires study of yur own and others' behavior. Next one needs a goal and practice.

Sure some people are natural musicians and we can learn from them by observing and then stating what needs to be done.
 
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Koop said:
Rich93 posted:

"As for me, I'm firmly in the 'you just see it' camp. If you can't just 'see it', you haven't played enough
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I'd stop it right there. If you have played enough you should be able to see the spot on the OB almost without looking at the pocket. Finding the spot is were I think most beginners need to start.

As I mentioned here before; when my son started playing I took the CB out of the game for his shot until he could run a rack without missing a shot. Made sure he followed through on each shot and noticed were he was hitting the OB. Once he could do this flawlessly, I then introduced the CB.

This made some fun games for us while he was learning.
 
pete lafond said:
I'd stop it right there. If you have played enough you should be able to see the spot on the OB almost without looking at the pocket. Finding the spot is were I think most beginners need to start.
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rep for you, that's the only way to do it.
 
wow good discussion, but no i wont be trying to sell anything, although my real job is in sales so I may have just come off like that. Let me just try to explain how I do as well as I can and see what you guys think. When I am standing up over a shot, I make an imaginary dot on top the cue ball. I then can see where the cue ball needs to go in a straight path into the object ball. So I take that dot that is on top of the cue ball, make a straight line ( in my head) to another dot directly in front of it that stops where the object ball stops. As I bend down over the shot I keep those two point aligned and then stroke it, the balls always go in everytime, it doesnt matter how hard i hit, how small the pockets are, or how tough the shot looks, to me it is easy, because Ive made it a straight in shot in my mind. Now how do I know where the cue ball needs to go in a straight line toward the object ball I have no idea. lol. Oh and if the point is not directly somewhere on the object ball, like if its more cut, i just move it to where it needs to be on the table next to the object ball.
 
I once asked a snooker pro the same question, what is his aiming system, how does he align the balls where is he looking at etc. For a long while he couldn't answer. Eventually he gave me that shrugg and told me he wasn't looking anywhere or has any standard alignments, simply look at the angle, bend down and shoot, that's it. It's all about feel and feel is something that must be worked out and not be taught.
 
Koop said:
Rich93 posted:

acedotcom posted:

"As someone who, once upon a time, could 'just see it,' but who now can't, I know exactly what you're talking about. Not only could I instantly see the contact point on the ob, but I could just as quickly see the corresponding point on the cb that would line up with it and the target line. When you can see like that, you can't help wondering about all the talk about aiming systems - it's like someone writing a 3 volume treatise on taking a sip of water. "

All the talk about aiming systems is that you use one. Seeing the contact point on the OB and the corresponding point on the OB is either the "Contact point aiming system", "Equal and Opposite aiming system", or "Joe Tucker's aiming system".
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Well, then, I'd rather refer to it as Ace's Aiming System, © Ace 1960. :D
 
i have tried maybe 50 diff aiming techniques. when ever i apply them i find it much harder to make the ball. when i just sight the ball feel the angel and trust myself i pot balls much better. i can sight make minor adjustments and just know its going in. i wish i could aim more 'consciensly'. especialy under high pressure situations. i wonder if anyone else is in the same boat.
 
3andstop said:
You ABSOLUTELY must be looking at the object ball when you stroke your shot. My suggestion to watch the cue ball was (as you may notice ) listed as "post object ball contact". What I'm trying to say is, rather than jump up after you stroke your shot, stay down and follow the cue ball path.
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I concur. I can't imagine how it is possible to aim if one is not looking at one's target while shooting. Like every other player I know, I look back and forth between the OB and cueball while I practice stroke, but when I actually pull the trigger I am deadsighted on that OB all the way through. I have to be, because I have to be aiming when I actually shoot, and I'm not aiming if I'm not looking at my target.

I speak for myself only, but I can't imagine trying to implement some kind of aiming technique. Most of what goes on in the proper execution of a shot is subconscious, relying on muscle memory. I visualize the execution of the shot, and when I get down to shoot I simply see where to aim. I know where to hit the OB to pocket it and I know how to strike the cueball to move it around the table for position.
 
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Now not to confuse an aiming technique with a delivery technique I can offer some thoughts on how to accurately contact the OB where you want on long nearly straight in shots.

Although as I said, at the advanced levels of play it really is all about feeling the shot go in, there are times when our inner demons try to trickle some negative feedback to us while we are stroking a long nearly straight shot (among others) but for me, I concentrate on two things that have proven themselves over time when I am trying to make one of those shots that you would just be happy chinching.

1. I do concentrate on sighting with my dominent eye. I'm cross dominent so that does help some as it is my lead eye.

2. Try applying just the slightest bit of inside english when you stroke those shots. (Every so little). I have found that when confidence is feeling "iffy" I have a tendancy to want to throw the balls in with outside english at the last second. Concentrating on the contact point and stroke using this tickle of inside seems to prevent that unwanted throw and help the shot into the pocket. It's such a little touch of inside that it may not even exist by the time the cue reaches the OB but it seems to point the ball into the pockets for me.
 
It's both

RunoutalloverU said:
why guys thanks for the responses ive enjoyed reading them. A few observations....its not your stroke. I mean up to a certain point it isnt. And I think a simple illustration shows this. I see a lot of ok players with beautiful strokes, but of course they miss a lot. And when they miss they inevitably look back at their arm and do the whole obligatory practice stroke after I miss thing. But I hate to tell them it isnt their stroke, its the fact that they have no consistent aiming technique therefore no real true consistent play. And after you have an aiming technique that makes pocketing balls easy, and yes all shots easy, you then can work on cue ball control. How many times have you got perfect shape on your next shot, but missed. Or you make a good shot, only to not get good position. You need both and you need both consistently. I know it isnt easy, but I play on a west coast tour, and believe me if you can break and run out (not just play some silly "ghost" game in your garage) against an opponent your well on your way to beating a lot of decent to good players.
Click to expand...


Yes on a given shot, a person may have perfect stroke but imoerfect alignment. What it is due to is a combination of not being sure about the aim and not trusting their stroke.

If you have an aiming system that is accurate and not just BS used to sell books, it helps. It gives you the confidence to know that you can trust your aim and not adjust at the last minute. To be truly consistent, you have to have a straight stroke and a good aim. Eventually, you won;t need an aiming system becuase you will automatically see the lines, but just practicing over and over again is not the quickest way or the best way to get good because you get reinforcement for bad stroking and aiming when you just happen to make it and you've been off on both.


Let me explain that a little further. If you're practicing without a specific technique, I.E aiming system and you're aiming incorrectly, but out of feel you mistroke the ball just right so that you make it. You've trained yourself to not stroke right and to not aim right. But if you work on stroking correctly first and get that out of the way and then aiming with or without an aiming system, you get positive reinforcement for correct form and correct aim and you get negative reinforcement for either incorrect aim and incorrect stroke and form.

That being said, The best aiming system for beginners would be the ghost ball. It's the easiest to understand, but the most difficult to visualise, this is especially true for people who have bad visual spatial intelligence. For advanced players it would be the parallel aiming system. I would have to show it to you as it's a little more complex, but much easier to visualise and 100 % accurate. It's the system that johnny Archer claims to use. "I don't want this to start into an argument Hal" and that's why I said claims to use instead of uses.

If you PM me. I send you a diagram about what I'm talking about.
 
3andstop said:
You ABSOLUTELY must be looking at the object ball when you stroke your shot. My suggestion to watch the cue ball was (as you may notice ) listed as "post object ball contact". What I'm trying to say is, rather than jump up after you stroke your shot, stay down and follow the cue ball path.
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That's the biggest load of crap that I've ever heard. Once you have proper alignment you can look at the friggin rafters as long as you stroke it straight.

That's how back hand english works. Get proper straight in alignment and rotate from the cue's pivot point.

Many people like to look at the CB last so that they can be sure that they are putting the type of english they want.
 
Well, if you think looking at the object ball last is a load of crap thats fine for you. Take a poll, I think you may learn something different.
 
3andstop said:
Well, if you think looking at the object ball last is a load of crap thats fine for you. Take a poll, I think you may learn something different.
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When I first started playing I looked at the object ball on delivery, as my game Progressed (SP?) I noticed one day on delivery I was focused on the object ball, now I cant magine doing it anyother way. As far as aiming systems go, I'll give you something simple and very acurate.



http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AHvU4PLsl4RLkl2TIUb3phtp2UHvU2Uchs4kLsl2kFrI4mLkl4mdXP@


you can use your cue to find the contact point to pocket the object ball, you can the Pivot your cue to find the line back to the cue ball, then all you need to do is extend that line to the floor, if your right handed, you place your right foot on this line, the best way to extend the line is to leave your cue on line, and place your right foot under it. when you go down into your stance dont move the cue, adjust your body so the cue is away from your torso and stroke the line. once youve done this for awhile you can visualize the whole thing and pocketing is effortless.

Ofcourse throw and english effect everything and there is a long learning curve but basicaly you line up the same, but compensate for side. This is primarily how I aim, not completly all of it, but anyone who can stroke straight using this will pocket balls.


Confused? GOOD. :D


SPINDOKTOR
 
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