We're talking about two different feels.
You're talking about how the pin effects the feel of the cue when hitting the cue ball.
I'm talking about how the pin effects the feel of the cue balanced in my hand. Not the hit.
Your favorite pin & why?
- Thread starter Texas3cushion
- Start date
You're talking about how the pin effects the feel of the cue when hitting the cue ball.
I'm talking about how the pin effects the feel of the cue balanced in my hand. Not the hit.
As I recall, there were many cues involved in that test and the players (pro or near pro level) were not blindfolded, the joints were just all masked up and players could not tell what kind of a joint the cues had.
If we wait long enough someone will repost the original post. I think John McChesney was involved. It kinda killed all the ivory, SS, implex arguments. The pin thing is on a whole new level of supposed sensitivity and honestly... you just cannot tell.
Lou Figueroa
trust me
The OP seems to be saying that the type of pin used restricts where the balance point can be set by the cue maker and it is the balance point he is interested in. Since the OP removes the weight bolt, it seems he likes a very light, forward-balanced cue, but maybe he can tell us explicitly.
That's accurate Bob.
I started the thread thinking others might have good answer to preferences of pin based on weight distribution. Not feel of hit.
There are several factors that can change weight distribution/balance of a cue.
The pin is almost insignificant in that equation.
Lou Figueroa
That seems to be case
These specs were posted earlier on page 1.
3/8 brass is about 1.4 oz.
Same SS is about 1.3 oz.
Titanium about .75 oz.
G-10, .33 oz.
1-2 oz isn't much
But definitely know the difference between a 16 oz cue vs 18 oz.
Of course they couldn't tell, even the masking tape wrapped around the joint would greatly affect the acoustics felt in in the handle, let alone any difference in shaft diameter, rings per shaft, different woods in the butts, different rings on the butt, etc. Did all these sticks utilized the same butts (not just "similar" butts, but (pun intended) the ACTUAL butts - as in, take off shaft 1 and install shaft 2 on the same butt, etc.). Clearly, that's not possible given the different pins involved.
That test is a farce.
Chili Palmer
trust nobody and maybe someone should do some actual acoustic tests utilizing different joints.
purple4
New member
I think you should be very skeptical. Because one cue is production radial with 12.9 revo and one cue is custom with 3/8-10 12.9 revo. Both cues are similar in weight. If I take ten shots with each in a row then 3/8-10 hit is different in my head. But if you handed me one blind folded it would be blind luck if I guessed right.
Shirley you jest, lol -- couple of inches of masking tape would be acoustically transparent and is not going to change anything "greatly".
BTW, here's the post in question, originally from RSB back in the late 90's (yes, I know it's addresses a different set of issues but that's not the point):
#####
Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered
with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a
steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of
ferrule. We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the
weekend.
The results:
Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about
what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro
(Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue
he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci,
plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel
joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a
steel joint. Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may
sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't
"hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc.
What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not
the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in
the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft
hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary
criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with: The tip
(soft, med or hard) The shaft diameter and density of the wood The taper (or
stiffness of the shaft) To this day, I still don't believe the joint has
much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the
3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue plays than anything
else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is
located at the tip, inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not
the joint or butt. In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players
liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with
different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes,
wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19
oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By
the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought
they would be steel jointed.
John McChesney
Texas Express
National Nine Ball Tour
PO Box 700814
Dallas Tx 75370
Voice 214 495 tour (8687)
Fax 214 495 7616
j...@texasexpress.com
http://www.texasexpress.com
#####
Lou Figueroa
Getting a steel-joint ADAM and a Implex-joint Meucci confused is pretty telling. Joint type/pin basically means nada as to a cues' 'hit'.
Coos Cues
Coos Cues
It's not the pin you are feeling the difference in I can guarantee that.
Nope, I don't jest, and don't call me Shirley
The point is - if you are trying to determine a joint pin/material then all other things MUST be equal. Period. End of story. The "feel" of a cue is acoustical, it's vibrations, and how those vibrations travel from the tip to your hand. What tip was on each cue? What ferrule? Were the shafts at least all the same taper (we won't get into how old was the shaft wood on cue A, how old on cue B, how many rings in each), any joint rings? What kind of forearm? Was the forearm cored? What type of joining pin connected the handle to the forearm? What type of handle material? What type of wrap - leather, linen, none? What type of butt? Any weight pins? If weight pins, where are they?
ALL of those things affect the hit of a cue by way of vibrations (what I call acoustics of the cue). There is simply no way anyone could accurately tell what joint pin/material is used due to the other variations -that is why all other things must be equal. Hell, you can pick up two of the exact same cue model and they will hit different? But you wouldn't know why, nor would you be able to tell what joint pin/material it has, hence, that "test" was a farce.
Chili Palmer
Needs to watch Airplane again, put it on my list.