Your opinion about Z-Z2?

juan hdez.

juan hdez.

Registered
Hi,

I would like to know who have this shafts and can make a comparison about both shafts, it´s more difficult Z2 with side spin?, it´s true that you must to shoot precisely in the center of the CB because if you move a little the shaft the spin increase a lot?


thanks.
 
It's a simple situation: instead of compensating for squirt, you compensate for english-induced throw.

Side spin is difficult with any shaft. If it weren't, people wouldn't struggle for decades on their game. The difficulty with the Z2 is adjusting to the throw, especially on soft shots.

juan hdez. said:
Hi,

I would like to know who have this shafts and can make a comparison about both shafts, it´s more difficult Z2 with side spin?, it´s true that you must to shoot precisely in the center of the CB because if you move a little the shaft the spin increase a lot?


thanks.
Click to expand...
 
juan hdez. said:
Hi,

I would like to know who have this shafts and can make a comparison about both shafts, it´s more difficult Z2 with side spin?, it´s true that you must to shoot precisely in the center of the CB because if you move a little the shaft the spin increase a lot?


thanks.
Click to expand...

I have both of these shafts, but it's clearly not for everyone, as you can see by the results from my survey thread here: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=66887. The 11.75 mm responses are most likely Z shafts. So only about 5% of the respondants reported using this shaft (as of the results today).

I have played with these shafts for a couple of years now and am pretty comfortable with them. I would say the strength of these shafts is that you can shoot a long shot with outside or inside english and aim almost exactly at the ghost ball target next to the object ball (in other words you don't need to adjust over an aditional amount to allow for squirt/deflection).

Yes, placement of the tip on the CB is very critical, and you will see the effect of subtle differences in tip placement magnified on your shot. If I'm in stroke, this is good, and I feel that I can really control where the CB is going in order to get shape for my next shot. However, on the nights where I am off my game, this can be a nitemare. Also, if you elevate your cue at all the effect is magnified. Again, you can use this to your advantage for masse and swerve shots.

I'm not sure I agree with Steve about compensating for english induced throw. Yes, you can cause this effect on purpose if you wanted, but I usually don't find myself making it happen that much (if at all) in my game. In fact, I could take off all the throw on a shot (whether collision or english induced) by using the appropriate english (e.g. outside english on a cut shot). I find myself doing that alot, but you can do that with any cue.

Now you might want to leverage this capability (using sidespin to throw a ball) but that's to be decided by you on a shot by shot basis. I can use side spin to throw a ball in a pocket using minimal forward roll, to keep the CB from traveling very far after contact. Or, I can make some long thin cuts go for a walk along the rail (both with inside and outside english). I think without the Z shaft, I would have to completely learn these shots (especially the outside english one). All of this you can do with any cue, but I have learned how to do it easily with the Z shaft(s).

I don't notice much of a difference between the two Z shafts, but there is a measurable difference in deflection. I did look to see which one I had on the other day after I had barely missed a couple of long thin cuts in a game. It turned out I was using the Z and not the Z^2 (I had been at the billiard shop earlier in the day measuring the tip diameters and I put the shafts in the opposite slots in my case; so I grabbed the wrong one when I was playing). Of course, that may not be why I missed the shots ;)

I also have a 314^2 shaft (12.75 mm) and two 13 mm Tim Scruggs shafts (originals that came with my cue). I can play decent with all of them. I would say that the larger diameter shafts are a bit more forgiving on miniscule aiming errors. However, I feel that I have learned a few "tricks" with the Z shafts that I can't do with the others. Right now, I am practicing a lot with the 314 and TS shafts to see if I can get to the same comfort level that I have with the Z's. I may be working my game back towards using the more convential shafts.

Of course all of this is MHO, YMMV.
 
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juan hdez. said:
thanks, what about close bridge with the z-z2?
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There is nothing particular about the Z shafts that require special use of the closed bridge. Your closed bridge will have to be tighter/smaller, because the shaft is thinner.
I use a closed bridge on most of my shots. But my rule of thumb (with any cue) is; a closed bridge is required for anything lower than a center ball hit (thanks to Randy G pool school for that one). Also, you should use a closed bridge for shots that you stroke very hard.
 
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i use an open bridge for almost everything. if you look at the pro snooker players they also play everything, even extreme power shots and draw shots, with an open bridge and they have to be precise than pool players. so go with whatever feels best, closed or open, as long as it is stable, it should be fine.
 
McChen, it´s perfect if you used an open bridge, but you can not compare with pro snooker players, the first one it´s because the game it´s totally different and the second one it´s that these guys are from other galaxy, what they do with a 12´table, with smaller balls are incredible.

that´s my opinion.

I think the best is used both.
 
i think either way is fine, i just use it because i am comfortable with it and i never felt that it was ever holding me back
 
juan hdez. said:
thanks, what about close bridge with the z-z2?
Click to expand...

I use a 3 cushion carom shaft (71cm) for pool. Most of the 3 cushion shaft looks like a z-shaft, but mine isn't as conical as the z-shaft, it has a little pro tapper, with a 12mm tip, it looks definitely more like a conical shaft than a pro tapper. So, its quite comparable with the z-shaft.

The last few games I'm using a closed bridge, because it suits me more when I play with english. It miscue less often. For long pots, I'm still using a closed bridge, but that didn't work very well. I think I'm losing some accuracy. It might be better using an open bridge on long pots and using a closed bridge when using english. For normal (short) pots, I dont think it does matter if you use an open or closed bridge. But training accurancy with a closed bridge surely improves playing with english.

If you can't control the z-shaft, you can try to move your bridge forward. It will give you more accuracy.

The funniest thing when you use a shaft like a z-shaft is you can see more precise where you shoot at, so you can also shoot more accurat, but like said before, when your stroke isn't perfect, it will be unforgivable. I've missed many shot, because it spin when it shouldn't have to spin. Sometimes it causes the throw that missed the shot. Other than that, I still loves my shaft.
 
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juan hdez. said:
McChen, how do you draw long shot.... with open bridge?


http://www.cuetable.com/WeiTable/

START(%AH8Y4%Pg6U3)END

Can you make this draw shot with an open bridge and and leave the CB at the end of the short rail?
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I have seen some great draw shots with open bridge, so it's really possible. But why do you still keep asking open or closed bridge? You should always use the one that suits you. Some experience players I know, changes there bridge depending the shot. So it's quite hard to tell what's better.

Someone told me, if you want a stable shot, you should go for the closed bridge. When you miscue, your shaft will go to the opposite way of the cue ball. With a closed bridge you have more control of the shaft, so you can force it to a legal shot. With an open bridge you can see more where you shoot, so the advantage is a more precise shot.
 
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yes i would shoot that draw shot with an open bridge, i don't find using a closed bridge makes it any easier for me. it's a hard shot by any means. like i mentioned before, watch some snooker players, they will show you that you can do all the shots with an open bridge that you can do with a closed bridge. the bridge is not the issue, it's the cue action that's important
 
WesleyW,

you said:

I've missed many shot, because it spin when it shouldn't have to spin.


I know that with a carom - Z shafts, you must to hit the CB more precise than a 13mm shafts, because the spin..., but on the other hand I´m sure that you can correct it with practice, practice and practice until you know perfectly how your shaft is and how it´s works.
 
I use the Z2 and I have not found there is any compensation required, as opposed to the 314 or 314-2, for any spin. I have never heard of that. I love my inside siding and only have a problem with it when I stroke it bad and miscue. Miscues are no more an issue that with any other shaft as long as you stroke smooth and chalk often.

As far as open or close bridge, I use both. I can hit a full table draw with both bridges although given the choice I would shoot it with a close bridge.

Yes with a close bridge you need to tighten us the front a bit but it is not any different that what I used to do for certain shots playing snooker.

In response to the comparison to snooker players, the difference between hitting a power draw shot in snooker as opposed to pool is the balls are lighter so there would be less stress on your cue stroke therefore allowing an easier time to keep the tip driving forward and finishing low on the table.

JMHO
 
I have both Z and Z2. The only difference is that original Z has just slightly more of a cone taper than Z2. But you will only notice it if you look really carefully.
Having said that, both shafts play identical. Robot says that Z2 deflects even less, but in human hands...no difference at all.
Be careful with spin shots if your cue is even slightly elevated...the ball masse's easily.

As far as open bridge draw shot goes...it is nothing special and you don't need to look at only snooker players, because plently of pool players do it nowdays also. Top pool stars such as Yang, Manalo and Wu use open bridge on long draws. Majority of pro's still do long draws with a closed bridge, but you know what...they do it that way because it's a part of their shooting routine, not because they are troubled shooting power shots with an open bridge.
 
IMO the only reason to consider the Z shaft is if you like the taper better. it's not gonna put any more spin on the ball than an ob-1 or a 314 and the deflection is minimal as are the other named shafts.

the taper is the main difference. personally i hate a conical taper it feels dodgy to me.
 
I have been playing for a long time (40 years) with everything from mop handles to my current favorite Predator P2 with Z2 shaft. 5 years ago I decided to look for a really good cue. I started reading the different manufactures web sites and comparing what they had to say and who was using their cues. I went with what I thought then and think even more so today was the best for me.
Also trying looking at the spin demo at this site.

http://www.predatorcues.com/predator...#generationdif
 
juan hdez. said:
WesleyW,

you said:

I've missed many shot, because it spin when it shouldn't have to spin.


I know that with a carom - Z shafts, you must to hit the CB more precise than a 13mm shafts, because the spin..., but on the other hand I´m sure that you can correct it with practice, practice and practice until you know perfectly how your shaft is and how it´s works.
Click to expand...

It's not really because of the spin, like you mention. It's just harder to hit with a 12mm tip dead centre than with a 13mm tip. When you don't hit it dead centre, the cb will spin, and in the worse situation, it also deflects a little. And ofcourse, it's not the tips fault, it's because my stroke isn't perfect enough. Like you said, the only way to correct is, is practice.

PoolSponge said:
...In response to the comparison to snooker players, the difference between hitting a power draw shot in snooker as opposed to pool is the balls are lighter so there would be less stress on your cue stroke therefore allowing an easier time to keep the tip driving forward and finishing low on the table.

JMHO
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I'm totally agree with that. I have never miscue playing snooker. It's just easier to draw with snooker. And like you mention, I also draw pretty good with an open bridge, but also likes to draw with a closed bridge, just personal preference.
 
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