Your thoughts on outrageous cue prices

billiards_watch said:
Well you are wrong too. As an admitted engineer by trade and training then you should be more open minded. It's disrespectful to your peers and colleagues to state your above post and the other statements you made on here.
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I'm absolutely open minded. If someone shows me a valid scientific test that even comes close to showing that a wavy pin is better at holding two pieces together than a 60degree v-thread, I'll read through it, and study it.

Then I will likely show them where they failed.

The truth, the absolute truth is that I have never been able to find any tests published by any of the manufacturers to back up any claims they make about their non-standard thread profiles.
 
straightline said:
What the user can discern in a blind test is always debatable.
The joint itself however, usually occurs at the halfway point. This is _the_ primary node in a vibrating length of anything that vibrates. Stands to reason the pin making the connection makes a difference. Determining the pin's impact on the user/shot system would would require meticulous sampling of all the shots and outcomes over a very long period.
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The primary node is not usually midway, unless you have symmetry, uniformity, or random happenstance (or great design). The rest I agree on.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
You have no way of knowing whether the joint is what causes the cue to feel solid or some other part of the construction. You also have no proof that the cues were more solid, you just, 'feel' that they are. Unless you actually do scientific testing on the same cue with different joints, I call BS on the joint having much to do with the feel of the cue. You are buying into the mezz/predator/etc. marketing. You see the big shiny part in the middle and think, 'well obviously this is the reason I can make a ball...'. I'm an engineer by trade and training. I have never heard a scientifically sound argument as to why a effed-up thread like the wavy would help the cue hit.

I can tell you why a big pin might have a different feel than a small pin, but I don't buy that too many people can feel the difference.

But if the kool-aid tastes good to you, guzzle away, sir.
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What the user can discern in a blind test is always debatable.
The joint itself however, usually occurs at the halfway point. This is _the_ primary node in a vibrating length of anything that vibrates. Stands to reason the pin making the connection makes a difference. Determining the pin's impact on the user/shot system would would require meticulous sampling of all the shots and outcomes over a very long period. Maybe you just said that. I can't tell.
 
vintagecollectibles831 said:
I highly disagree with your opinion. They are by far the most solid joints I have personally ever felt on a pool cue. And, by the way, the Mezz United Joint shafts will fit on a Schon cue butt for example. It is a 5/16x14 joint.
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By "solid joint", are you referring to the fact that the shaft threads on tightly?
 
DeeDeeCues said:
You're killing me....
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Not sure why I'm killing you, I'm simply trying to understand what he's referring to specifically. Everyone has their own interpretation of feeling versus value, and it's information like this that can influence my own construction.

I agree with your statements 99% of the time 😉.
 
Ģüśţāṿ said:
Not sure why I'm killing you, I'm simply trying to understand what he's referring to specifically. Everyone has their own interpretation of feeling versus value, and it's information like this that can influence my own construction.

I agree with your statements 99% of the time 😉.
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I simply meant that it made me laugh, I'm sure you've read my rants about shafts taking a lot of effort on the pin.

99% is an awful high number, I appreciate it. Have a great evening!
 
DeeDeeCues said:
You have no way of knowing whether the joint is what causes the cue to feel solid or some other part of the construction. You also have no proof that the cues were more solid, you just, 'feel' that they are. Unless you actually do scientific testing on the same cue with different joints, I call BS on the joint having much to do with the feel of the cue. You are buying into the mezz/predator/etc. marketing. You see the big shiny part in the middle and think, 'well obviously this is the reason I can make a ball...'. I'm an engineer by trade and training. I have never heard a scientifically sound argument as to why a effed-up thread like the wavy would help the cue hit.

I can tell you why a big pin might have a different feel than a small pin, but I don't buy that too many people can feel the difference.

But if the kool-aid tastes good to you, guzzle away, sir.
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I am only talking about Mezz cues. Not Predator or any other cues. Have you ever personally put together a Mezz, and hit with one? The Wavy joint Mezz cues have the stiffest hit that I have ever experienced. When you connect a Wavy joint Mezz, you can really feel each turn, and it becomes more tight with each turn. With the Mezz United Joint, the last few turns are super tight. I feel that these joints give the cue that One Piece hit that is more solid then anything else.
 
vintagecollectibles831 said:
I am only talking about Mezz cues. Not Predator or any other cues. Have you ever personally put together a Mezz, and hit with one? The Wavy joint Mezz cues have the stiffest hit that I have ever experienced. When you connect a Wavy joint Mezz, you can really feel each turn, and it becomes more tight with each turn. With the Mezz United Joint, the last few turns are super tight. I feel that these joints give the cue that One Piece hit that is more solid then anything else.
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Gets tighter with every turn...that is actually reducing the effectiveness of the purpose of a screw, which is to provide a clamping force at the joint.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Gets tighter with every turn...that is actually reducing the effectiveness of the purpose of a screw, which is to provide a clamping force at the joint.
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What part of the joint though? Just the face or worse the collar? Any models of what the stress on the shaft looks like - where it goes? I will assume it's not that relevant. Just curious - distortion wise.
 
straightline said:
What part of the joint though? Just the face or worse the collar? Any models of what the stress on the shaft looks like - where it goes? I will assume it's not that relevant. Just curious - distortion wise.
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Ideally, it would be across the entire face. The effectiveness of the ability of the joint faces to resolve bending forces is greater further out on the diameter of the faces. It can be approximated by a simple lever calculation. So, I would say that the joint collars are doing a lot of the work to avoid bending, but the whole face should be working on the clamp load. I believe this is why the piloted joints are less common now, the pilot was so big that a significant amount of the faces weren't doing anything to resolve the clamp force (this is based on my observations that no pilots were really ever fully seating on the faces--that would create an over-constrained condition which would rely on compression of material for the pilot and the joint faces to all be seated.

Sorry, that is a lot of thoughts crammed into a few sentences.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Ideally, it would be across the entire face. The effectiveness of the ability of the joint faces to resolve bending forces is greater further out on the diameter of the faces. It can be approximated by a simple lever calculation. So, I would say that the joint collars are doing a lot of the work to avoid bending, but the whole face should be working on the clamp load. I believe this is why the piloted joints are less common now, the pilot was so big that a significant amount of the faces weren't doing anything to resolve the clamp force (this is based on my observations that no pilots were really ever fully seating on the faces--that would create an over-constrained condition which would rely on compression of material for the pilot and the joint faces to all be seated.

Sorry, that is a lot of thoughts crammed into a few sentences.
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Not at all. good info-od
 
Ascue said:
Even a year ago a simple merry widow was 500 to 750 from many cuemakers. Now it's 1000 to 2000. Thats not inflation, it's gouging. People put up a 10 year joss on facebook for what a new one costs. I wanted to get a scruggs. I backed off. Not gonna pay those prices. Just saw a titleist conversion by tascarella for 4500. Not me. Not ever. What you think?
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Another thing to think about, I just purchased a Schmelke break cue. I wanted to try a 24 oz and thought about a rage. Instead, I ordered the Schmelke exactly as I wanted. Bocote into purpleheart sneaky with purpleheart shaft. 212 shipped. Shmelke mad a profit and I'm tickled with it. If Schmelke can make a profit, that blows a big hole in the theory that everything doubled in the last 2 years. These guys don't buy new lathes every 2 years. Lathes seldom break down. In fact, usually they buy used from the guy they learned their craft from. The wood they used was prolly purchased a decade ago and has "aged" since. The only thing going up is the gouging. I'm all for buying custom cuemakers stuff. I'm just choosy about what I buy. Another example of gouging , i could buy a mcworter for 2200 A year ago . Thought it was high. Mcworter won cuemaker of year and Brian raised the price by 400 to 500. I dont need a Mcworter and more than likely will never buy anything from Brian at jj cues again. My choice. I don't reward bad behavior. There are many many cuemakers out there if something strikes me at a fair price.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Ideally, it would be across the entire face. The effectiveness of the ability of the joint faces to resolve bending forces is greater further out on the diameter of the faces. It can be approximated by a simple lever calculation. So, I would say that the joint collars are doing a lot of the work to avoid bending, but the whole face should be working on the clamp load. I believe this is why the piloted joints are less common now, the pilot was so big that a significant amount of the faces weren't doing anything to resolve the clamp force (this is based on my observations that no pilots were really ever fully seating on the faces--that would create an over-constrained condition which would rely on compression of material for the pilot and the joint faces to all be seated.

Sorry, that is a lot of thoughts crammed into a few sentences.
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You probably think Lambros cues are garbage too. He patented a very unique Pilot for his cues. The Ultra Joint.

I did not understand anything you said though.
 
vintagecollectibles831 said:
You probably think Lambros cues are garbage too. He patented a very unique Pilot for his cues. The Ultra Joint.

I did not understand anything you said though.
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Lambros pins appear to be a 60deg thread form, why would I have a problem with that? The bevel seat is a great idea, with the caveat that it appears to leave a sharp edge on the butt joint collar, which may be prone to damage. What I have a problem with is that his website claims more cueball control because of the joint. I'd love to see that proven.

I don't think mezz cues are junk. I think they are a fine cue with an effing stupid pin design. I think any cue that takes a lot of effort to simply screw the shaft onto the butt suffers from a design flaw. I believe that screw threads should be utilized only in tension and that alignment should either be an effect of that tension, or provided by another feature like the Lambros bevel or a pilot (though using both is over-constraining. Not the end of the world, but having two concentric locating features means that one is not doing what the designer thinks it is).

I'll relate all of this to cell phones. Apple used to use a proprietary cable. This cable worked, but they wouldn't work with any non-apple devices. Every other device used an industry standard USB. Apple recently changed because of European mandate. The 60degree vee thread profile has been industry (actual industry, not specifically the cue industry) standard for around 150yrs. The vee thread profile was chosen for a reason, there are actual calculations, experiments, and engineering behind that thread. Wavy joints and radial are the result of hucksters making something that looks cool and selling it as a better solution. They are then able to sell taps for $300 because cue repair people will buy them to work on the cues that many times the factory won't work on. How is any of that good for the cue industry as a whole? How is that good for a customer?
 
Ascue said:
Another thing to think about, I just purchased a Schmelke break cue. I wanted to try a 24 oz and thought about a rage. Instead, I ordered the Schmelke exactly as I wanted. Bocote into purpleheart sneaky with purpleheart shaft. 212 shipped. Shmelke mad a profit and I'm tickled with it. If Schmelke can make a profit, that blows a big hole in the theory that everything doubled in the last 2 years. These guys don't buy new lathes every 2 years. Lathes seldom break down. In fact, usually they buy used from the guy they learned their craft from. The wood they used was prolly purchased a decade ago and has "aged" since. The only thing going up is the gouging. I'm all for buying custom cuemakers stuff. I'm just choosy about what I buy. Another example of gouging , i could buy a mcworter for 2200 A year ago . Thought it was high. Mcworter won cuemaker of year and Brian raised the price by 400 to 500. I dont need a Mcworter and more than likely will never buy anything from Brian at jj cues again. My choice. I don't reward bad behavior. There are many many cuemakers out there if something strikes me at a fair price.
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You’re looking at it very one sided. Everyone’s expenses are different, Schmelke offers more than just cues so maybe they don’t need to make as much on cues. Think about how much $$ you need to make in a year, then what the expenses are. How many cues at what price to make a living? I can build a cue very cheaply if I want to make 5$ an hour but it won’t pay the bills.
 
Rodney said:
You’re looking at it very one sided. Everyone’s expenses are different, Schmelke offers more than just cues so maybe they don’t need to make as much on cues. Think about how much $$ you need to make in a year, then what the expenses are. How many cues at what price to make a living? I can build a cue very cheaply if I want to make 5$ an hour but it won’t pay the bills.
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The guy has the world view of a twelve year old. I read his posts for the amusement factor. As he is so proud of stating (like a petulant tweener), he flicked an iggy on me and can't see my posts.
 
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