Peace proposal

[SpiderWebComm]

The day is complete with the 4 MUSKETEERS all posting!

LOU FIGUEROA
DAN WHITE
BRIAN CRIST
denwhit

Was any of it positive or was it negative?

Here's something I don't understand. Lou and Dan both are 14.1 players and enthusiasts.

Last week the 14.1 World Championships were held and the main forum had SIX (6)
threads on the matches, stats, comments, etc. Here are the threads:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=461359

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=461381

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=461126

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=461232

http://forums.azbilliards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6&order=desc&page=3

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=459449


THERE ISN'T ONE POSITIVE POST OR ANY POST BY EITHER OF THEM!

Yet here they are in the AIMING FORUM as two NON-AIMING SYSTEM USERS
once again BLASTING CTE and CTE USERS.

Incredible!

 

[Koop]

Here's the one from that thread I liked:



Lou Figueroa
how things
have changed
indeed, lol

I stand by that post. You were entitled to your opinion.
The LOL is at you for acting like a little school girl on the forums every time someone disagrees with you. I'm going to go out on a limb here but...any kids there Lou? My guess is no because you would want to at least act more mature than them.

 

[lfigueroa]

I stand by that post. You were entitled to your opinion.
The LOL is at you for acting like a little school girl on the forums every time someone disagrees with you. I'm going to go out on a limb here but...any kids there Lou? My guess is no because you would want to at least act more mature than them.

Are more of these personal insults all you've got? How about engaging in a civil discussion/debate for a change?

Lou Figueroa

 

[Koop]

Are more of these personal insults all you've got? How about engaging in a civil discussion/debate for a change?

Lou Figueroa

LOL...nope, but nice try baiting me. Just trying to figure out what makes a 60 something year old man act like a little girl on the interwebs.

 

[BC21]

Spider, you're right that I was presuming a lot about age of those candy posters. I can't help but laugh out loud just thinking that we are debating a different website's forum about favorite candy bars!.

And as far as 3T5, I remain curiously optimistic about learning its secrets someday. (To skirt a possible ban I will use a secret code)

 

[Straightpool_99]

Honestly, I really feel there should be a separate CTE forum. It could be members only, and anyone had to approved by Stan or Spider. I'd never go there (nor would I be allowed, probably), but if that is what they want, they should have it. Why not, there are so many sub forums as it is? I'm sure some people who were really curious about CTE would enjoy being able to talk directly to the source, without interuptions.

That way you could dispense CTE knowledge as you saw fit, and nobody would ask any questions or start arguments which is the way the prefer to have conversations, apparently. I think the great disconnect is that the CTE people have a different project on here than anybody else. They are not trying to debate with others, they allready know everything, and they want to present what they know without being challenged. The CTE subforum would give them that option as well as an audience who'd give them all the respect they want. People who were not allowed in could view the post, but not post themselves. It's a win-win. Anyone else could discuss aiming any way they pleased, and the CTE folk could all laugh at them inside their own comfy forum where they could never be challenged or inconvenienced. If someone did bring up CTE in the general aiming discussion, it should be allowed to run it's course, but the CTE folk would have a natural advantage by being able to reply in their own forum without anyone being able to answer back.

When you start censoring all aiming discussions, then you kill all the conversation. It's completely pointless to even have a forum the way it is now. If censorship is what you advocate, I think my solution above is the best way to implement it without destroying the forum.

 

[stan shuffett]

Honestly, I really feel there should be a separate CTE forum. It could be members only, and anyone had to approved by Stan or Spider. I'd never go there (nor would I be allowed, probably), but if that is what they want, they should have it. Why not, there are so many sub forums as it is? I'm sure some people who were really curious about CTE would enjoy being able to talk directly to the source, without interuptions.

That way you could dispense CTE knowledge as you saw fit, and nobody would ask any questions or start arguments which is the way the prefer to have conversations, apparently. I think the great disconnect is that the CTE people have a different project on here than anybody else. They are not trying to debate with others, they allready know everything, and they want to present what they know without being challenged. The CTE subforum would give them that option as well as an audience who'd give them all the respect they want. People who were not allowed in could view the post, but not post themselves. It's a win-win. Anyone else could discuss aiming any way they pleased, and the CTE folk could all laugh at them inside their own comfy forum where they could never be challenged or inconvenienced. If someone did bring up CTE in the general aiming discussion, it should be allowed to run it's course, but the CTE folk would have a natural advantage by being able to reply in their own forum without anyone being able to answer back.

When you start censoring all aiming discussions, then you kill all the conversation. It's completely pointless to even have a forum the way it is now. If censorship is what you advocate, I think my solution above is the best way to implement it without destroying the forum.

Every question that really matters was answered for DVD1 and DVD2 multiple times by various forum members. It is simply wrong to portray CTE advocates as a non answering group.
Having said that, since the time that I announced my book project I have purposely shut down concerning any updated info. Any updates will be presently free by online presentations. My shut-down is not a ploy to sell new info via my new CTE book in any way.
According to Dan, my book release is still an IF in his mind and he clearly says that here but be would not even begin to put up $500 to my 50G on his comment of IF.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Dan White]

And as far as 3T5, I remain curiously optimistic about learning its secrets someday. (To skirt a possible ban I will use a secret code)

Might have to call in Alan Turing to crack that code. :grin:

 

[Straightpool_99]

Every question that really matters was answered for DVD1 and DVD2 multiple times by various forum members. It is simply wrong to portray CTE advocates as a non answering group.
Having said that, since the time that I announced my book project I have purposely shut down concerning any updated info. Any updates will be presently free by online presentations. My shut-down is not a ploy to sell new info via my new CTE book in any way.
According to Dan, my book release is still an IF in his mind and he clearly says that here but be would not even begin to put up $500 to my 50G on his comment of IF.

Stan Shuffett

I have no reason to question- or doubt that you will release your book. I don't want to "shut you down", "silence" you or anything like that. The fact is, I don't really care about CTE one way or another. To me, it's an aiming system like any other, and ideally should be treated and discussed as such. Since that is not possible, my previously stated solution is the only one I see that will salvage what is left of the aiming forum. There has been much talk from the CTE side about "muzzling" any opponent. This is your chance to muzzle EVERYONE except those of whom you approve.

All I want is to be able to discuss any aiming system I want in a truthful, honest fashion, without biting my tongue in a forum designated for that exact purpose. That is why I want a different forum created that would better serve "other" purposes. I don't think my request is in any way unreasonable or unfair to you. Remember, I don't want to ban anyone from coming into the regular aiming forum. All I ask is that people there be allowed to actually discuss aiming, with all the NORMAL forum rules in effect. Meaning that one can be critical or positive to any system and actually compare them as one wishes without being banned, just like one could do with cues. I can say Meucci cues suck, without being banned for instance. I normally wouldn't do that without qualifying it in some way, but I could if I wanted. Isn't that a grave injustice to Meucci? Shouldn't I be a pro or have used one for a decade or more before I speak on that matter? Or would you agree that when you have purchased a Meucci and it more or less fell apart in your hand along with watching those of your friends do the same, you earned your say? What about someone knowledgable who observe how their cues are put together, should he not be allowed to speak? I mean, if someone completely new to cues said it, that would be permitted as well. You actually don't need to earn your opinions. You may need to earn respect for your opinions, but it doesn't mean you're not allowed to have them or express them.

 

[stan shuffett]

I have no reason to question- or doubt that you will release your book. I don't want to "shut you down", "silence" you or anything like that. The fact is, I don't really care about CTE one way or another. To me, it's an aiming system like any other, and ideally should be treated and discussed as such. Since that is not possible, my previously stated solution is the only one I see that will salvage what is left of the aiming forum. There has been much talk from the CTE side about "muzzling" any opponent. This is your chance.

All I want is to be able to discuss any aiming system I want in a truthful, honest fashion, without biting my tongue in a forum designated for that exact purpose. That is why I want a different forum created that would better serve "other" purposes.

I know that you don't question the upcoming reality of my book release but Dan does. I did not mention anything about anyone shutting me down. I hit a crossroads where I shut myself down for an defined time.

The only muzzling talk that has been made on this forum was directed toward one major attack dog that has no purpose on this forum for any reason other than to put CTE down, whatever it takes.

Concerning separate forums, that'd only result in dualing banjos. Nether side would lose a beat in keeping up with the other. There'd be two forums, each viewed as instruments for sounding off their message. Personally, I m not one bit interested in dualing forums.

I do appreciate your tone. Very pleasant! No pun intended.

Stan Shuffett

 

[lfigueroa]

LOL...nope, but nice try baiting me. Just trying to figure out what makes a 60 something year old man act like a little girl on the interwebs.

I wasn’t trying to bait you. I was actually hoping you’d drop all the insults and engage in a civil discussion. In particular, since you mention visiting with Hal, it’d be good to hear your thoughts on what you learned from him.

Lou Figueroa

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The fact is, I don't really care about CTE one way or another.

Great! Then why are you in here talking about how it should be handled?

There has been much talk from the CTE side about "muzzling" any opponent. This is your chance to muzzle EVERYONE except those of whom you approve.

It's called Facebook or having your own FORUM. Both of which are being worked on. Anyone or everyone can be eliminated or rejected. I can give you four names immediately who will head the list and never be posting there. It would be redundant because they're already been listed and called out.

All I want is to be able to discuss any aiming system I want in a truthful, honest fashion, without biting my tongue in a forum designated for that exact purpose.

Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you said above "The fact is, I don't really care about CTE one way or another." Nobody has prevented you from discussing any other aiming system. Ask Brian anything you want about his fractional aiming system. Create a thread about your favorite. Who cares! Do you want to discuss Joe Tucker's Contact Point aiming system? I can do that. I've been with Joe personally a few times and have his training balls to learn the system along with the grid layout.


That is why I want a different forum created that would better serve "other" purposes. I don't think my request is in any way unreasonable or unfair to you. Remember, I don't want to ban anyone from coming into the regular aiming forum.

When has anyone been stopped? I'm calling for certain individuals who have long known histories of starting flame wars about CTE to be forbidden from bringing up the subject, engaging in any kind of talk about it because it's a known fact they will take it to extremes and instigate a flame war in each and every thread. They, like you, have no interest in CTE or ever using it. So what is the motive?

All I ask is that people there be allowed to actually discuss aiming, with all the NORMAL forum rules in effect. Meaning that one can be critical or positive to any system and actually compare them as one wishes without being banned,

If somebody is going to be critical of any system, maybe they should be tested on their knowledge of said system before flaming, along with a demonstration on video of how they interpret it to be executed. And therein lies the problem as it's always been. They don't know and then turn into Pit Bulls and Rottweilers calling it a scam or impossible.

just like one could do with cues. I can say Meucci cues suck, without being banned for instance. Isn't that a grave injustice to Meucci? Shouldn't I be a pro or have used one for a decade or more before I speak on that matter? Or would you agree that when you have purchased a Meucci and it more or less fell apart in your hand along with watching those of your friends do the same, you earned your say?

Forum members would be much better off watching Jayson Shaw play with a Meucci and what he has to say instead of some forum wizard who feels he got screwed. Personally I've never seen any cue fall apart in somebody's hand. Even a Walmart cue. What part of the cue falls apart and what happens?

Hal Houle used a Meucci and loved it. Wouldn't use anything else. Now there's a double whammy for you. He created CTE and used a Meucci on top of it. Not your kind of guy and you not being his kind of guy.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Forum members would be much better off watching Jayson Shaw play with a Meucci and what he has to say instead of some forum wizard who feels he got screwed. Personally I've never seen any cue fall apart in somebody's hand. Even a Walmart cue. What part of the cue falls apart and what happens?

I am here talking about CTE, again, because CTE is directly interfering with normal discussions of other aiming systems. The new rules clearly state that you cannot compare systems. Lets not pretend that is not what's happening. I feel that my suggestion was a constructive one, and it was sincerely meant to be.

I used the Meucci cue as an example and I did actually have one come apart in my hands. The finish over the wrap cracked and the joint collar came lose in the same game. I'd never actually categorically state that all Meuccis suck, it was only an example of a general opinion about cues. I could have just as well used any other manufacturer or opinion for that matter. Tons of good players have used them. I know some of them. I've even actually liked a few Meucci cues myself even trying to buy one off an old timer, who refused to sell at what I considered a more than fair price. That was one of the best cues I've ever played with. (don't tell anyone).

Regarding your comments on Facebook, I think that's great, honestly. I hope you have lots of productive discussions of CTE there. This, on the other hand, is an open forum. They sometimes get messy, and you may disagree very strongly with someone, even dislike them, yet you have to live with it. I think it's beautiful, actually, a miniature society. I quite like to discuss things with people with whom I disagree. I sometimes even change my opinions based on those discussions, as outlandish as that may sound. That's why I sometimes venture in to NPR, even though I have very little in common with people in there, I sometimes learn something, and I always enjoy a good exchange anyhow. I realize that this is not the way of Facebook, but that is why I'm mostly here, and nearly never there.

If I'm not "Hal Houle's kind of guy" I'd have to take your word for it. If true, then I could easily live with it. I don't need everybody to like me, and I pity the person who is so insecure that they obsess about people liking them, they sure have their work cut out for them. Hal Houle does sound like a quite interesting fellow, thats my entire opinion of him. The Meucci part doesn't add or detract in any way from that opinion.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I am here talking about CTE, again, because CTE is directly interfering with normal discussions of other aiming systems.

No it isn't. Start a thread about any aiming system your little heart desires and test to see what happens.

If CTE interferes with your aiming system thread it'll be because one of the 4 Musketeers either sabotages your thread directly by bringing it up or starts hammering CTE in another thread to dwarf what is going on in yours.

Lets take Stans Shiskebob thread that he started. Houle' Shish Kebob, Visual Version (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4 5)
stan shuffett

It went almost 2 1/2 pages as smooth as silk with a lot of great feedback until one of the 4 Musketeers popped in (Lou) and completely derailed it from that point on. Since his first post Lou has made NINE(9) MORE up to this point attacking Koop. Is it Koops fault? NO. He has every right to defend himself against being made to look like a fool as is trying to be done.

The posts have been reported to the moderators a couple of times and at least 4 guys have voiced their disapproval of Lou coming in and doing what he did. What has been done by the mods? Nothing. My question is why not?

If you interpret it differently than what I just stated, please say otherwise and why because it's all right there in front of you and everyone else.

The new rules clearly state that you cannot compare systems. Lets not pretend that is not what's happening. I feel that my suggestion was a constructive one, and it was sincerely meant to be.

There are parts of it that do have merit. I agree.

I used the Meucci cue as an example and I did actually have one come apart in my hands. The finish over the wrap cracked and the joint collar came lose in the same game. I'd never actually categorically state that all Meuccis suck, it was only an example of a general opinion about cues. I could have just as well used any other manufacturer or opinion for that matter. Tons of good players have used them. I know some of them. I've even actually liked a few Meucci cues myself even trying to buy one off an old timer, who refused to sell at what I considered a more than fair price. That was one of the best cues I've ever played with. (don't tell anyone).

OK, now you're being very fair.

Regarding your comments on Facebook, I think that's great, honestly. I hope you have lots of productive discussions of CTE there. This, on the other hand, is an open forum. They sometimes get messy, and you may disagree very strongly with someone, even dislike them, yet you have to live with it.

Not really! It's an open forum with categories, rules, and bans. We've all been banned because we've reported threads that have been over the top and made them ourselves. I admit 100% to making them and doing it knowingly at times but didn't care. If it meant getting banned to get someone else banned, sometimes you just have to suck it up and do it.

I think it's beautiful, actually, a miniature society. I quite like to discuss things with people with whom I disagree. I sometimes even change my opinions based on those discussions, as outlandish as that may sound. That's why I sometimes venture in to NPR, even though I have very little in common with people in there, I sometimes learn something, and I always enjoy a good exchange anyhow. I realize that this is not the way of Facebook, but that is why I'm mostly here, and nearly never there.

Just keep having fun. War isn't fun.

 

[BC21]

Honestly, I really feel there should be a separate CTE forum. It could be members only, and anyone had to approved by Stan or Spider. I'd never go there (nor would I be allowed, probably), but if that is what they want, they should have it. Why not, there are so many sub forums as it is? I'm sure some people who were really curious about CTE would enjoy being able to talk directly to the source, without interuptions.

That way you could dispense CTE knowledge as you saw fit, and nobody would ask any questions or start arguments which is the way the prefer to have conversations, apparently. I think the great disconnect is that the CTE people have a different project on here than anybody else. They are not trying to debate with others, they allready know everything, and they want to present what they know without being challenged. The CTE subforum would give them that option as well as an audience who'd give them all the respect they want. People who were not allowed in could view the post, but not post themselves. It's a win-win. Anyone else could discuss aiming any way they pleased, and the CTE folk could all laugh at them inside their own comfy forum where they could never be challenged or inconvenienced. If someone did bring up CTE in the general aiming discussion, it should be allowed to run it's course, but the CTE folk would have a natural advantage by being able to reply in their own forum without anyone being able to answer back.

When you start censoring all aiming discussions, then you kill all the conversation. It's completely pointless to even have a forum the way it is now. If censorship is what you advocate, I think my solution above is the best way to implement it without destroying the forum.

Excellent idea.

 

[Low500]

Just keep having fun. War isn't fun.

----------

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Spider...I've said this before. All that's necessary is to throw any of the "Four Musketeers", as you call them (I refer to them as troublemakers) on the Ignore Feature and that's the end of that.
They can rave, rant, lie about 'civlil debate', do whatever...and you'll never know they even exist anymore. One of these days some of them will overplay their hand and will be sent packing. And guess what...you won't know that either because they've been on IGNORE..
I agree that it's a shame to see a top instructor like Mr. Shuffett get beat up over and over and over, especially by players who wouldn't bet a dime of their own money they're even alive and can't shoot a lick, but man....you cannot police these characters. Especially that lead attack dog. :banghead:<==this is you.:wink:
They're going to do as they please no matter what.

If there's any semblance of fair in the way moderators moderate, they damn well shouldn't be able to do as they please!

In fact, I think Mr. Shuffett should throw them on Ignore also. They certainly are not interested in anything he has to say or teach (they will lie about it just to keep the trouble going).. so why even bother with it ?
The only time I know they exist is when someone puts one of them in his place with a quote and their quote shows up.
It's very nice and makes this place a very delightful visit. Try it out for about a week, my man. Just try it. You will love it.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

I know your words of advice and intentions are well meant but I've said this to you before.

The IGNORE function only works when you're logged in. Maybe you're always logged in and never out.

I log out and only log in when I post. When you're logged out, those names and posts of those you have on IGNORE show up just as they would if you didn't have them on IGNORE.

Try it and you'll see what I mean. You'll see all of it. Everything.

I don't want to stay logged in here 24/7 and I'm not going to. Thanks for your concern but I'll be just fine.

 

[Dan White]

I don't want to stay logged in here 24/7 and I'm not going to. Thanks for your concern but I'll be just fine.

Why not stay logged in all the time? I'm logged on with two different computers. Is there some kind of IT thing or security issue with staying logged on? I think putting the 4 Musketeers on ignore for you is a very good idea. It would end the arguing for sure.

 

[lfigueroa]

Why not stay logged in all the time? I'm logged on with two different computers. Is there some kind of IT thing or security issue with staying logged on? I think putting the 4 Musketeers on ignore for you is a very good idea. It would end the arguing for sure.

I log on in the mornings over a cappuccino and then later in the afternoon (occasionally over a cocktail).

Unless quoted I never see the posts of those I have had on Ignore for many, many years like Spider and Cookie and a few select others. A tad primitive but it works.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I am here talking about CTE, again, because CTE is directly interfering with normal discussions of other aiming systems. The new rules clearly state that you cannot compare systems. Lets not pretend that is not what's happening. I feel that my suggestion was a constructive one, and it was sincerely meant to be.

I used the Meucci cue as an example and I did actually have one come apart in my hands. The finish over the wrap cracked and the joint collar came lose in the same game. I'd never actually categorically state that all Meuccis suck, it was only an example of a general opinion about cues. I could have just as well used any other manufacturer or opinion for that matter. Tons of good players have used them. I know some of them. I've even actually liked a few Meucci cues myself even trying to buy one off an old timer, who refused to sell at what I considered a more than fair price. That was one of the best cues I've ever played with. (don't tell anyone).

Regarding your comments on Facebook, I think that's great, honestly. I hope you have lots of productive discussions of CTE there. This, on the other hand, is an open forum. They sometimes get messy, and you may disagree very strongly with someone, even dislike them, yet you have to live with it. I think it's beautiful, actually, a miniature society. I quite like to discuss things with people with whom I disagree. I sometimes even change my opinions based on those discussions, as outlandish as that may sound. That's why I sometimes venture in to NPR, even though I have very little in common with people in there, I sometimes learn something, and I always enjoy a good exchange anyhow. I realize that this is not the way of Facebook, but that is why I'm mostly here, and nearly never there.

If I'm not "Hal Houle's kind of guy" I'd have to take your word for it. If true, then I could easily live with it. I don't need everybody to like me, and I pity the person who is so insecure that they obsess about people liking them, they sure have their work cut out for them. Hal Houle does sound like a quite interesting fellow, thats my entire opinion of him. The Meucci part doesn't add or detract in any way from that opinion.

This is a great idea but based upon the behavior of some here I doubt it could be implemented as a practical matter.

There are many significant flaws in some aiming systems that should be discussed. Can't do that under current regulations.

Lou Figueroa