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Have you ever known any players who played really good with the heavy (mud) cue ball, that you see on so many Valley coin op tables?

ShootingArts
JAM said:
Keith McCready's comments about mud ball transcribed by me:

McCREADY: First of all, a mud ball is different than a big cue ball. It's smaller, but heavier than a regulation cue ball, the way the blue dots used to be.

Myself, I didn't like playing with mud balls, not that I couldn't play with them. They will jump off the object balls with the type of english that I'm not looking for. When you go to use cue-tip high lefts, cue-tip high centers, and cue-tip high rights, the mud ball deflects off the object ball. It's hard to put a smooth stroke on it.

Your draw shots and your stop shots, you can do that with a mud ball, but any time you're going off angle, it's different.

To me with the mud balls, I go off my balance point where I hold the cue farther back with my right hand, long stroking, a little bit more longer of a stroke. When you go to follow balls off the rail with the mud ball, it's difficult, especially if you've got to come back down table and you're straight in, a little bit off angle, left or right, either way, where you have to put a stroke on it.

My best advice is to practice your longer strokes with the cue-tip highs, left, right, and center. When you go to draw the ball, say you're a little off angle and you have to draw and then hit the rail and then suck the mud ball back, there's where your longer stroke will come into play, because holding the cue stick a normal way and you go to draw that mud ball, it won't go nowhere. You got to put more of a power stroke on your draw shots And remember, you're farther back off your balance point when you practice the drills.

Back when I played, we had Valleys, but the Irving K's were more difficult to play on with a mud ball.
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Keith is an invaluable source of pool knowledge and legend. The pool world needs to get more use out of both of you! I hate to be a nag but if the book came out I never noticed. Is the book available?

One of my regrets in pool is that I came very close to playing a young Keith when I was young too and it didn't quite happen. Would almost certainly have been on nine foot tables though when the more interesting battle for both of us would have been on seven foot tables.

Hu
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Thoughts on players who seemingly take Zero practice strokes, before shooting / final follow through?

jlrowe
You shoot pretty sporty... you are exactly right that if you can see your point of contact and go down with proper alignment it doesnt make a lot of difference. when you are down taking those micro or practice strokes it gives you to much time to second guess your shot. You should have everything figured out before you go down on the shot.
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Thought patterns ...

S
dquarasr said:
I hope I can explain this properly. Advise whether this should go in the Ask The Instructor forum. But I thought I'd solicit more generally, both what people do, and what I should do.

I struggle mightily controlling my thought patterns. I fully understand that mindless execution is best. Let me give you some examples of what happens to me.

Drills: after I am warmed up and I'm confident I am aligning properly and no anomalies have crept in, I tend to do very well at the start of a drill. For instance, the Mighty-X stop shot. I can't tell you how many times I will make the first few shots, then miss the fourth, fifth, or sixth shot. Then I regroup, and can sink maybe five to 10 in a row, then, a miss. And nearly always, I notice my thought pattern has shifted. Suddenly, I feel the cue in my hand. I feel where my shoulder is. I feel where my feet are. I feel where my elbow is. I am suddenly consciously aware of these things. and invariably, as soon as I notice these thoughts in my head, the misses follow. I can even get down on a shot and tell myself NOT to think about such things, which then forces me to think about them.

So, my questions, in particular directed to the more highly accomplished AZBers here:
1a. From the time you get down on your shot and perform pre-strokes, until you address the cue ball the final time, what do YOU think about?
1b. Same question, but what would you recommend *I* (or any player to whom you are giving advice) think about?

2a. When you at final cue ball address, and you are starting your backstroke, then through your forward stroke, what do YOU think about?
2b. What would you recommend *I* think about?

I am really trying to exorcise my conscious thoughts because the more mindlessly I perform my execution, the better I shoot. (I understand that planning the shot while standing is where thinking and visualizing the shot should occur.)

Competition and game play: similarly and relatedly, I struggle with focus. If it's not the problem stated above, where the shot parameters are fairly simple, it's more nuanced shots, such as the really easy shot where I "lose" focus on exactly where to deliver the cue ball, or a tougher shot where I'll focus so much on potting the ball that my speed/spin plan is forgotten. I have a problem with the mental discipline to focus exactly the same way on every shot. (I bet that's not too uncommon.)

My goal is to move from "Don't be thinking about (x, y, z)", because trying NOT to think about something brings it front of mind. My goals are to have some sort of mantra, some thing I can have my brain occupied with, so anything about shot execution can't enter my thought pattern.

I know, really esoteric, but hopefully I get some good ideas here. I hope this isn't too weird a topic.

P.S. Yes I've read Pleasures of Small Motions. No, I haven't read Inner Game of Tennis.
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Do ALL your thinking and aiming before you get into your stance, once you are in your stance make no adjustments, if you're not comfortable with your aim ect., stand back up do all your thinking( English, ect.) When you get back into your stance don't think, concentrate on making your cue go perfectly straight through the cueball, that is the only thing you can control, if your aim is correct and you stroke through the cueball in your intended line you will make your shot, watch where the OB went in the pocket, if you were aiming dead center of the pocket is that where the OB went? If not even though you made the ball you did not achieve your goal, why? Was your tip a little off center, was your stroke a little off of perfectly straight? These are what drills are for, once you are in competition keep the same routine do ALL your thinking before you get in your stance, NEVER adjust your aim while in your stance, once you're in your stance your ONLY thought is a straight stroke, by the way the inner game of tennis is a great read and helped me tremendously, the book is about how the conscious and the subconscious mind work together or fight each other.
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Have you ever known any players who played really good with the heavy (mud) cue ball, that you see on so many Valley coin op tables?

ShootingArts
westcoast said:
I first learned to play pool in my early 20s on bar tables with a big heavy cue ball (whether you call it a mudball or not officially). It definitely was difficult to draw the ball and cut shots were different (not sure in what way- but I certainly had to adjust when first playing with standard cue balls).

There was a guy at the 8 Ball Saloon in Ann Arbor, MI named Leonard Gustafson who ran the weekly tournaments- he was great with the big cue ball- took a great player to beat him. On tables with a regular cue ball or 9 footers, he looked basically like a slightly above average player, but on those bar tables with the big cue ball, it would take a pro speed player to beat him.
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The answers are simple when you model it out. When you hit balls of different diameters the contact angle is different than when you hit balls of the same diameter. Start with the draw shot. You don't hit the same contact point on the object ball with a bigger cue ball. Grab two round disks of different sizes and put the edge of each on a straight line, then do the same thing with two disks of the same size. Impossible to have the same contact point. The same is true with cut shots, different contact points. Trickiest to see but two different sized balls will show you that the contact points have to be different with two different diameter balls when hitting on a diagonal from the center point of the cue ball and tip too.

The hit of the cue tip is different on a different sized cue ball, the hit of a different sized cue ball is different on an object ball. We make matters worse aiming with the center of the shaft/tip than aiming with the contact point.

This is a time when it is all physics but we have to use the right set up. A totally different result putting the centers of the balls on the reference line that serves as the bed surface or putting the edges of the balls on the reference line. Drawing in 2D we can exaggerate the difference in circle size and make the different contact angles even easier to see.

Of some benefit on the pool table is to draw a reference line on the ferrule and turn the cue so that the reference line matches the contact point as closely as possible.

Hu
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Have you ever known any players who played really good with the heavy (mud) cue ball, that you see on so many Valley coin op tables?

jay helfert
maha said:
pretty much rod curry and dave mattlock were the two best bar tables players ever, considering their full table speeds.
ill throw bakersfield bob into that crew.

sure a few top players that played both, could sometimes beat them but never anyone that they didnt know that walked into it.
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Not many knew Peter Gunn, a black player out of L.A. He stayed undercover really good. Everyone knew his name, but not what he looked like. He was a jam up bar table player. I played him several times on a big table and couldnt beat him there.

Later on he played (good player who owned a room in Portland. I'll remember his name) for a monster score, like 60K. When he quit they threatened Peter, who was built like a tank. A gun was waved. Peter said "go ahead, im keeping the money." And he walked out right between his assailants!

P.S. on his way home (with the 60K) he stopped at my room and we played 50 a game! He always stopped to see me. We became good friends. He liked me and told me the whole story, only a few days after he beat Whitey. Maybe 6 feet tall and 225 pounds of muscle! I wouldnt want to anger him. When you know, you know!
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Thoughts on players who seemingly take Zero practice strokes, before shooting / final follow through?

Jaden
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I just figured with the question of this thread that I'd play the ghost a bit using zero practice strokes, well I did use them on the breaks, but none on the playing shots.

I think this pretty much answers the question, unless someone thinks I would've done better than the above with practice strokes.

My thoughts are that if you're in proper alignment it doesn't really matter and won't make a difference either way with 2 exceptions.

I think that if it's part of your prestroke routine that many people might have difficulty transitioning to a no practice stroke, stroke, and second that using no practice strokes might be better for players who find themselves missing shots because of steering the cue, bending their wrist or other second guessing derived misses.

I may myself test out playing some more with little or no practice strokes just to see longer term how it works for me.

In the video I said 3.4" sides, I meant 4.4", but I remeasured them and they are closer to 4.5" but the corners are definitely 3.9.

:edit: on that last rack if I wasn't trying to run out I would've just slid the 4 past the six and locked the cb on the 8. That's one thing that I hate about playing the ghost and I usually won't play it by the standard rules. I like to practice the shots as they should be played. So if I get a shot that should be played as a safe, I play the safe, I try to make the safe as if I'm the opponent, if I make it, I keep going and if I miss it, I take bih again.
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Have you ever known any players who played really good with the heavy (mud) cue ball, that you see on so many Valley coin op tables?

jay helfert
JAM said:
Keith McCready's comments about mud ball transcribed by me:

McCREADY: First of all, a mud ball is different than a big cue ball. It's smaller, but heavier than a regulation cue ball, the way the blue dots used to be.

Myself, I didn't like playing with mud balls, not that I couldn't play with them. They will jump off the object balls with the type of english that I'm not looking for. When you go to use cue-tip high lefts, cue-tip high centers, and cue-tip high rights, the mud ball deflects off the object ball. It's hard to put a smooth stroke on it.

Your draw shots and your stop shots, you can do that with a mud ball, but any time you're going off angle, it's different.

To me with the mud balls, I go off my balance point where I hold the cue farther back with my right hand, long stroking, a little bit more longer of a stroke. When you go to follow balls off the rail with the mud ball, it's difficult, especially if you've got to come back down table and you're straight in, a little bit off angle, left or right, either way, where you have to put a stroke on it.

My best advice is to practice your longer strokes with the cue-tip highs, left, right, and center. When you go to draw the ball, say you're a little off angle and you have to draw and then hit the rail and then suck the mud ball back, there's where your longer stroke will come into play, because holding the cue stick a normal way and you go to draw that mud ball, it won't go nowhere. You got to put more of a power stroke on your draw shots And remember, you're farther back off your balance point when you practice the drills.

Back when I played, we had Valleys, but the Irving K's were more difficult to play on with a mud ball.
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Great tutorial here! Thank you Keith.
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Larry Lisciotti

S
Baby Huey said:
I ran into Larry in my home room in LA circa 1969. We played nine ball for $5/game. I won two in a row and he quit me. Smart move why play me and beat me when took the small loss for something better down the road. That came the next day to a guy less skilled than me and Larry stalked his way to a $200 score. No small change then. The next time I saw him six months later he was beating the $10/20 pay ball game at Bellflower Billiards on the snooker table. He beat the game for $80 K over a month or so. He’s ball striking was perfect for that game. He hung around LA for a year or so and left with the cash. Didn’t see him again til a tournament in Vegas in the 80’s. Great guy what a legend.
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One of the fixtures there - Tom; always wore a leather hat and his lady always talked about Lisciotti. No wonder! ...
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Larry Lisciotti

jay helfert
Baby Huey said:
I ran into Larry in my home room in LA circa 1969. We played nine ball for $5/game. I won two in a row and he quit me. Smart move why play me and beat me when took the small loss for something better down the road. That came the next day to a guy less skilled than me and Larry stalked his way to a $200 score. No small change then. The next time I saw him six months later he was beating the $10/20 pay ball game at Bellflower Billiards on the snooker table. He beat the game for $80 K over a month or so. He’s ball striking was perfect for that game. He hung around LA for a year or so and left with the cash. Didn’t see him again til a tournament in Vegas in the 80’s. Great guy what a legend.
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The guy he beat was me, and you knew it. Thnx for not outing me. Larry was a good hustler. First we stayed close at $5 and $10 9-Ball. He was up a few games.

I challenged him to play One Pocket 50 a game. He beat me four in a row.

Later I steered Larry to a 2K score. He jellied me good, like 20%. We became very good friends for life! I miss you Larry.
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Joe Rogan - What's in the bag

O
This was a great clip. I’m a Rogan fan in general but it’s cool to see how legitimately into pool he is and that he has knowledge of the game and equipment. I enjoy all the what’s in the bag segments regardless who does them and I think they are beneficial as everyone always wonders what such and such plays with and hearing it direct from the player is helpful.
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Have you ever known any players who played really good with the heavy (mud) cue ball, that you see on so many Valley coin op tables?

W
I first learned to play pool in my early 20s on bar tables with a big heavy cue ball (whether you call it a mudball or not officially). It definitely was difficult to draw the ball and cut shots were different (not sure in what way- but I certainly had to adjust when first playing with standard cue balls).

There was a guy at the 8 Ball Saloon in Ann Arbor, MI named Leonard Gustafson who ran the weekly tournaments- he was great with the big cue ball- took a great player to beat him. On tables with a regular cue ball or 9 footers, he looked basically like a slightly above average player, but on those bar tables with the big cue ball, it would take a pro speed player to beat him.
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