Thoughts on cue making

[manwon]

The whole cnc vs non cnc will not make any difference in 5-10 years as it will become the standard by then. It will be like comparing a BETA MAX to a VHS 15 years ago now look both are made obsolete by the DVD and in another 1-2 years DVD will be obsolete too. There are a lot of cue makers who use cnc but hide it and even more who would love to use one but don't want to learn how to use it. Look at all the cue makers that are pushing the envelope of cue design are using cnc( Black Boar, Black, Gina, JW, Searing)

The whole cnc vs non cnc will not make any difference in 5-10 years as it will become the standard by then. It will be like comparing a BETA MAX to a VHS 15 years ago now look both are made obsolete by the DVD and in another 1-2 years DVD will be obsolete too.

I totally agree with you if your competition is with the Chinese, because they can copy anything built using CNC Equipment. However, buyers are not all blind, and the cue market like all markets will adjust as it is right now. In the long run those who choose to follow the ways of Mass Production and those buyers who choose to buy Mass produced cues will suffer. First, if everyone follows your train of thought traditional cue building techniques will be forgotten. Now since everything moves in cycles popularity of traditional techniques will return, however, only those few who have retained those abilities will be able to compete. Now I think it is a fact already that many people buying high end cues today are already moving back to the traditional building techniques for investment purposes. In fact many buyers of high end cue want nothing else. In todays market most of the high end cues you see traded and traded over and over again, are built with none traditional techniques. The cues built by makers using traditional methods and limited equipment are very rarely on the market, and they never stay there for very long, oh and they also fetch those big price tags.

My biggest problem with CNC technology is that many builders even if asked will not give a clear answer on their use of this equipment, which I think is wrong. If you use it, why be ashamed to admit it, unless you also understand the consequences of those actions. Next, the Chinese are great craftsmen, and the quality of their work has improved tremendously over the last 10 years. When you take their computer skills into account there is nothing they can't copy using CNC Machinery. Now with that said, and the influx of these products why do people want to compete and where will it end. I think we are feeling the effects of this influx as we speak, and I think it will only get worst with time. I also think this will cause the shift at least for high end collector cues back to what takes the natural ability that can't be achieved by machines.

I know many will disagree, and that is certainly fine, only time will tell who is right, these are just my thoughts on this subject.

Take Care.

 

[cueaddicts]

The whole cnc vs non cnc will not make any difference in 5-10 years as it will become the standard by then. It will be like comparing a BETA MAX to a VHS 15 years ago now look both are made obsolete by the DVD and in another 1-2 years DVD will be obsolete too.

I totally agree with you if your competition is with the Chinese, because they can copy anything built using CNC Equipment. However, buyers are not all blind, and the cue market like all markets will adjust as it is right now. In the long run those who choose to follow the ways of Mass Production and those buyers who choose to buy Mass produced cues will suffer. First, if everyone follows your train of thought traditional cue building techniques will be forgotten. Now since everything moves in cycles popularity of traditional techniques will return, however, only those few who have retained those abilities will be able to compete. Now I think it is a fact already that many people buying high end cues today are already moving back to the traditional building techniques for investment purposes. In fact many buyers of high end cue want nothing else. In todays market most of the high end cues you see traded and traded over and over again, are built with none traditional techniques. The cues built by makers using traditional methods and limited equipment are very rarely on the market, and they never stay there for very long, oh and they also fetch those big price tags.

My biggest problem with CNC technology is that many builders even if asked will not give a clear answer on their use of this equipment, which I think is wrong. If you use it, why be ashamed to admit it, unless you also understand the consequences of those actions. Next, the Chinese are great craftsmen, and the quality of their work has improved tremendously over the last 10 years. When you take their computer skills into account there is nothing they can't copy using CNC Machinery. Now with that said, and the influx of these products why do people want to compete and where will it end. I think we are feeling the effects of this influx as we speak, and I think it will only get worst with time. I also think this will cause the shift at least for high end collector cues back to what takes the natural ability that can't be achieved by machines.

I know many will disagree, and that is certainly fine, only time will tell who is right, these are just my thoughts on this subject.

Take Care.

Tap, tap....I agree. Another issue I have with it is that in theory, it should make things easier for a cuemaker, thus, drive down the cost of the produced items....at least that's how things are supposed to work in most markets. You see a lot of CMs going CNC, doing the same type of inlays, and then they increase their price. However, when a CNC used as a vehicle to push the envelope on design and increase the artistic aspect, something that cannot be done with a panto, then I respect it.

Back to Travis' post, excellent story and insight. I love it when you hear of guys thinking outside the box, building their own fixtures, tools, etc....rather than just buying "off the shelf". The world needs more people that think like that. Good stuff and great post, Travis.

 

[searingcue]

CNC used as a vehicle to push the envelope on design and increase the artistic aspect, something that cannot be done with a panto, then I respect it.
Tap; Tap; Tap;

I love it when you hear of guys thinking outside the box, building their own fixtures, tools, etc....rather than just buying "off the shelf". The world needs more people that think like that. Good stuff and great post, Travis.[/QUOTE]

Amen!!

Dennis

 

[Murray Tucker]

Tap, Tap, Tap

Great post Travis,
It is easier to pay someone to think for you so that is the route most will take. It's the ones who think outside the box and push the envelope that will stand apart from the crowd in the long run.

 

[Rak9up]

I personally think "custom cuemakers" are missing the mark. They are worried more about building incredible works of art using point inlays ect.
You don't find alot of scrimshaw work on most golf clubs.

A CUE IS A TOOL USED IN THE SPORT OF POOL.

A sport I remind you that is very exacting 1/8 of an inch out of line can be a big deal. So if I seem somewhat "anal" about this subject I think it is justified. In my Opinion they should spend more time researching how to pick better blanks like "tone woods" from wood piles or better perfecting the fitting process matching a cue to a players needs. A "suped up or loose cue" for a 4 skill level may not be what is needed for a 9 skill level. Above all else keep an open mind for cue improvements.
I luv when a cuemaker tell me what I need when he's never seen me hit a ball.

P.S. If a "custom cuemaker" sells AVAILABLE CUES on his website. How
are these "custom" cues just because one cue looks different from the
next doesn't make it custom. Its production cue just on a smaller scale.

Remember the world is not Flat and it is not round ...its somewhere in between.

 

[Murray Tucker]

Performance has to come first. Pretty is just a bonus.

I personally think "custom cuemakers" are missing the mark. They are worried more about building incredible works of art using point inlays ect.
You don't find alot of scrimshaw work on most golf clubs.

A CUE IS A TOOL USED IN THE SPORT OF POOL.

A sport I remind you that is very exacting 1/8 of an inch out of line can be a big deal. So if I seem somewhat "anal" about this subject I think it is justified. In my Opinion they should spend more time researching how to pick better blanks like "tone woods" from wood piles or better perfecting the fitting process matching a cue to a players needs. A "suped up or loose cue" for a 4 skill level may not be what is needed for a 9 skill level. Above all else keep an open mind for cue improvements.
I luv when a cuemaker tell me what I need when he's never seen me hit a ball.

P.S. If a "custom cuemaker" sells AVAILABLE CUES on his website. How
are these "custom" cues just because one cue looks different from the
next doesn't make it custom. Its production cue just on a smaller scale.

Remember the world is not Flat and it is not round ...its somewhere in between.

 

[Black-Balled]

Performance has to come first. Pretty is just a bonus.

oke:And that is why you are going to sell me the next non-wrapped cue you make, right. Right? Right? :wish:

 

[DaveK]

.... It's the ones who think outside the box ... that will stand apart from the crowd in the long run.

I am not a cuemaker.

I have to stand on the stupid box to see over the crowds or just to see out the window :embarrassed2:

BUT I do have three (3) metal lathes in my shop now :thumbup: as the new owner of a $40 Atlas 618.

Good thread Travis, thanks for starting this one.

Dave

 

[tikkler]

hey

I personally think "custom cuemakers" are missing the mark. They are worried more about building incredible works of art using point inlays ect.
You don't find alot of scrimshaw work on most golf clubs.

A CUE IS A TOOL USED IN THE SPORT OF POOL.

A sport I remind you that is very exacting 1/8 of an inch out of line can be a big deal. So if I seem somewhat "anal" about this subject I think it is justified. In my Opinion they should spend more time researching how to pick better blanks like "tone woods" from wood piles or better perfecting the fitting process matching a cue to a players needs. A "suped up or loose cue" for a 4 skill level may not be what is needed for a 9 skill level. Above all else keep an open mind for cue improvements.
I luv when a cuemaker tell me what I need when he's never seen me hit a ball.

P.S. If a "custom cuemaker" sells AVAILABLE CUES on his website. How
are these "custom" cues just because one cue looks different from the
next doesn't make it custom. Its production cue just on a smaller scale.

Remember the world is not Flat and it is not round ...its somewhere in between.

A hand made piece of incredible art, using amazing talent and ability as well as artistic prowess, is also a pool cue. It may never see a ball or a table. All depends on what your looking for, doesnt it.........
Steve

 

[Travis Niklich]

cnc

I think most people don't understand how a cnc machine works we all see the how it's made video and think how easy it must be but they don't show the many hours of programing that go into making it look simple. I think the problem with cnc machined cues started in the late 1990's when a lot of cue maker's where using multi-head cnc mills to make 4-6-8 cues inlaid with the same design over and over at that time cue makers where selling out shows left and right with floating points and large radius inlays. People have to understand that some cue makers will wright a program (g-code) for a custom cue and maybe only use it one time. Most of my custom cues have between 5-20 hours in program time and test cuts to make sure it all works before I ever cut on the cue itself. To make a blanket statement that all cue makers that use cnc are some how less of a craftsmen or artist in simply not true we put in just as much work as anyone else plus the investment in the tools and learning how to wright the programs that make it all work.

The guys at cueaddicts probably know my work best. They saw my work I did with a pantograph years ago and now with the cnc. I would have never been able to take my cue making to the level it is at now with out the use of a cnc. I have all the respect in the world for the guy who uses a pantograph but it is not for me. I think if you us a cnc as a complement to the other traditional methods like short splice and full splice you come out with a great cue.

Even if the cue makers in China where to get there hands on the programs to make the exact cue it would not be the same. A person with the tools and programs is still useless if they don't have the knowledge to make it all work. The reason the cue from China will never be as good as the cues made here is they only run it as a business and lack the passion and willingness to seek the knowledge to make the best cues in the world they are only worried about the bottom line - money. As Ernie says a cue maker has to play at least a little to be able to learn how the cue work affects the play of the cue

 

[Rak9up]

A hand made piece of incredible art, using amazing talent and ability as well as artistic prowess, is also a pool cue. It may never see a ball or a table. All depends on what your looking for, doesnt it.........
Steve

Granted there are cars made for racing and cars made for just cruising or showing off. Doesn't mean we both don't luv cars.

I'm a player that luvs to race ...(usually heads up to 11).

You cruise

Point taken

 

[DaveK]

Most of my custom cues have between 5-20 hours in program time and test cuts to make sure it all works before I ever cut on the cue itself. .....

At the risk of being accused of thread-jacking, I just noticed this package the other day and thought it to be quite sensible, assuming it works as advertised :

http://www.kentechinc.com/KipwareT.shtml

Dave

 

[Travis Niklich]

cue making

Lets compare a cue maker to a race car team. The Chinese already have the race car but they lack the crew chief and the driver. They could have the best race car in the field but without a driver or crew chief it's just a pile of parts sitting on pit road and cannot win. A cue maker could have a multi-million dollar shop but with out the knowledge to make it work he has nothing. The knowledge of cue making moves beyond the machines that make the cue you have to know how all the woods and various material will work together not just how they can be assembled. Bill Stroud went to China several years ago to teach them and they still don't have "it" because they try to apply the same business technique you would use to make electronics and other consumer goods. The cue business is just the opposite it is the model for inefficiency no one would ever cut and process wood the way we do if your goal was to make the most money at it. They will never take the time to let shafts and the other wood sit for years the way American cue makers do because it is not efficient enough to make money on a large scale

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

CNC used as a vehicle to push the envelope on design and increase the artistic aspect, something that cannot be done with a panto, then I respect it.
Tap; Tap; Tap;

I love it when you hear of guys thinking outside the box, building their own fixtures, tools, etc....rather than just buying "off the shelf". The world needs more people that think like that. Good stuff and great post, Travis.

Amen!!

Dennis[/QUOTE]

Amen to someone who knows how the envelope should be pushed.

Originally Posted by Rak9up
I personally think "custom cuemakers" are missing the mark.

I have to disagree. I believe it is actually just the opposite. Primarily due for the most part of not understanding or not having the correct knowledge of the cue building industry.

They are worried more about building incredible works of art using point inlays ect.

Gus, George, Harvey, Tad....just to name a very few had absolutely no idea where their ideas and hard work were going end up and what they would evolve into. There are now two distinct, definitely different doors that the industry has been led too. Which one a builder (artist) chooses to open is their destiny. Can they be combined? Why not. I've seen many outstanding pieces (on the eyeballs) that are also described as the owners best player ever. It's all in the eye (hands) of the beholder.

You don't find alot of scrimshaw work on most golf clubs.

I don't believe this is a very good analogy of the two sports but I do understand what your trying to point out. I also understand that golf clubs are tools of the trade but it would be kind of hard to play golf with a billiards cue.

A CUE IS A TOOL USED IN THE SPORT OF POOL.

Sometimes it is............sometimes it isn't

A sport I remind you that is very exacting 1/8 of an inch out of line can be a big deal. So if I seem somewhat "anal" about this subject I think it is justified.

I think this can be said with just about any sport. Football is a game measured in yards but played in inches. I've seen baseballs glance off the fair poles that could only be detected when the camera is slowed down to super slow mode. I've also seen golf balls that look like more than half the ball is hanging over the cup and that has been the difference between first and second place. I don't think you're being anal at all.

In my Opinion they should spend more time researching how to pick better blanks like "tone woods" from wood piles or better perfecting the fitting process matching a cue to a players needs. A "suped up or loose cue" for a 4 skill level may not be what is needed for a 9 skill level. Above all else keep an open mind for cue improvements.

I couldn't agree more. This why you will only see certain builders use certain woods in certain aspects of the cue. Some woods are just not meant to be in a players cue even though they might look all pretty.
Without a doubt, I believe the ones who will advance have the mind to find improvements. But just because it works for one guy doesn't mean it will for another.

I luv when a cuemaker tell me what I need when he's never seen me hit a ball.

I'm sure he's just testing your knowledge!

P.S. If a "custom cuemaker" sells AVAILABLE CUES on his website. How
are these "custom" cues just because one cue looks different from the
next doesn't make it custom. Its production cue just on a smaller scale.

Why couldn't these cues be fitted to an individuals taste or needs? Looks don't always tell the story. Weight, balance, tapers, tips, could change any one of those cues into a desirable piece for someone. Just because a cue isn't built to a certain persons spec shouldn't declassify it. That is certainly a thread that that has been hashed out previously though.

Remember the world is not Flat and it is not round ...its somewhere in between.

It's NOT FLAT? Then why did Chris start out with 5 ships and when he returned told the Queen that two really did go over the edge.


No offense........just my side of a debate that will go on for a long time.

Tools are tools. What and how they are used for can make the difference in a one man shop of staying a float and paying the bills or asking "want fries with that?" I know one thing for sure, robotics are here to stay. God bless those who turn their nose up to them and build their pieces. But just because a person has them in their shop and knows how to multi task them shouldn't mean they are now a production cue builder.
Travis mentioned he has spent anywhere from 5 to 20 hours at the computer doing design work. I know I've talked to some who have spent well over 100 hours of computer time just on the design work for one cue alone. As he also mentioned, this is only the small beginning to put this design into a round, tapered canvas of wood and have it all end in a flawless piece of work.
I believe we have only so far seen the tip of the iceberg in a robotics engineered piece of work. Who will chisel out the next Van Gogh?


<~~~needs more robotics in my shop..........................

 

[manwon]

Amen!!

Dennis

Tools are tools. What and how they are used for can make the difference in a one man shop of staying a float and paying the bills or asking "want fries with that?" I know one thing for sure, robotics are here to stay. God bless those who turn their nose up to them and build their pieces. But just because a person has them in their shop and knows how to multi task them shouldn't mean they are now a production cue builder.[/B]

I have to disagree with you and many others here on this subject. First of all everyone says well try and program the equipment and see how hard it is. Well, 99% of the cue makers using this equipment don't program the equipment, they have a programmer do the work for them, so they are buying programs for cue making. Once a program is completed it can be saved and used over and over and over again, in exactly the same format, to do the same job or as part of other job's. This is the definition of production, and this is exactly what some one would want to achieve in any production facility.

I do however agree that these methods of cue making are here to stay, and I certainly think there is a place for them. In fact the day is coming when these programs will be sold just like any other software, and in fact that day has arrived. But, finely crafted hand cut inlays and other forms of tradition hands on construction will never disappear either. This form of craftsmanship will never be mastered by all, and it will never lose it's value or appeal to many astute investors. I do not think that CNC milled verse Hand cut should command the same prices for the finished product either, because CNC milling techniques can be used to mass produce designs, and hands on work is unique to the work at hand. Do to this the man hour's are not there that justify what some of these items are selling for today. Lets face the facts, without this equipment and technology there would be no where near the number of people making cues today, and the farther we move toward it this influx of cue makers will only increase.

Now, I know that people will say it is easy to make these assumptions without knowledge of CNC programing techniques, and without using the equipment. But, I will say this sometimes people know more than they appear to, and unless you are familiar with each other it is hard to make that assumption.

In the end it I think that whatever method is used is a personal choice, and I also believe that long term it will directly effect the value of items bought for investment in the future. Buyers are going to buy what they like, some will buy for use as a player and some will buy cues for investment purposes. Not matter how anyone approaches it is a personal choice nothing more and nothing less. However, for cue makers with the future upon us, choices have to be made that will either allow us to move forward as unique individuals or to become just another face in a very large crowd.

Take care

 

[Tony Zinzola]

I have to disagree with you and many others here on this subject. First of all everyone says well try and program the equipment and see how hard it is. Well, 99% of the cue makers using this equipment don't program the equipment, they have a programmer do the work for them, so they are buying programs for cue making. Once a program is completed it can be saved and used over and over and over again, in exactly the same format, to do the same job or as part of other job's. This is the definition of production, and this is exactly what some one would want to achieve in any production facility. e

The people who aren't going to take that time to learn to write their own programs are the same types of people who will be making cues from pre made blanks the rest of their lives.

I was emailed several programs when I bought my machine. I didn't look at any of them. I want my designs to be my own, not the same crap everybody else is putting in their cues.

Why do you think it's so much different using a pantograph than a CNC machine? Most of the people with the pantograph's have their patterns made up by somebody with a CNC. They use the same bits. It's still the machine doing all of the work. They are also a lot more apt to redo the same designs over and over than I am. I don't want to build 10 of the same cues. Some people might, but there is probably more of that with a pantograph as they are a lot more limited to their templates on hand.

 

[manwon]

The people who aren't going to take that time to learn to write their own programs are the same types of people who will be making cues from pre made blanks the rest of their lives.

I was emailed several programs when I bought my machine. I didn't look at any of them. I want my designs to be my own, not the same crap everybody else is putting in their cues.

Why do you think it's so much different using a pantograph than a CNC machine? Most of the people with the pantograph's have their patterns made up by somebody with a CNC. They use the same bits. It's still the machine doing all of the work. They are also a lot more apt to redo the same designs over and over than I am. I don't want to build 10 of the same cues. Some people might, but there is probably more of that with a pantograph as they are a lot more limited to their templates on hand.

Tony, I have a great deal of respect for you, your designs, and your work in general. I have no problem with CNC techniques or equipment, but like I said 99% of the people using this equipment do not program it. I am glad that you have taken the time to learn how to make your own programs, I think this should be the standard to follow. I also agree that those using CNC equipment and paying to have the equipment programs made are the same people who will continue to build their cues from purchased parts. Now, I personally have no problem with that as long as these same people are up front when asked what they are doing.

To me Tony, it is not a question of the techniques used to build cues, the problem in my opinion is the deceptive behavior many use to hide the facts at hand. Like I said before, these changes are coming and nothing will stop them, however, there will always be those buyers who prefer other than CNC produced designs. My biggest fear is that one day more traditional techniques will be lost along with those special individuals who have the ability to preform using these techniques.

Take Care

 

[JoeyInCali]

but like I said 99% of the people using this equipment do not program it
Craig, you mean 99% do not draw their own designs?

 

[Tony Zinzola]

Craig, I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing with you. I just had a similar conversation with Kenny Murrell today. He's been helping me out a ton with my machine. People seem to associate CNC with round inlays. My inlays are not round. I also don't ever intend on using inlaid points.

I've had a buyer look over a cue of mine for over 45 minutes with a jewelers loop before he finally decided he'd take it. This was on a cue where the only inlays were in my rings. If that had been the cue I just did with 140 tiny inlays in the butt and I had done it on the pantograph, there is no doubt in my mind, he would have found some flaw and passed on the cue.

It's also not as easy as people seem to think. I've been working on the same program for over a day. It's close, but not quite there. I think one of the differences is that I know it's possible to get it perfect. With the pantograph, I'd of said it's close enough about 5 versions ago and went ahead with it. With the CNC, I won't cut into the cue until I am 100% satisfied, even if I end up scrapping the entire idea after days of work.

 

[Rak9up]

OMG Barrenger and I agree on a cue topic

Going outside to jump off my roof onto my cue

see you guys its been fun