Getting called on a tough technicality...

Do you call this one or let it slide?

  • You always call it, rules are rules

    Votes: 6 7.6%

  • You always let it slide, it's clear what pocket they wanted

    Votes: 62 78.5%

  • You let it slide usually, but not in the finals (or some other situation)

    Votes: 11 13.9%
  • Total voters
    79
CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Our player marks the pocket for the 8. The marker is an official cardboard-y coaster thing. It slides off the rail and onto the floor. He makes the 8. The other team calls it a loss. The ref agrees.

He was upset, and so was most of the rest of the team, but I wasn't so much. My reasoning is that losing to a technicality sucks, but this is just one of many technicalities that we're expected to be aware of and be careful of.

What I'm wondering is... do you call this one? Is there any technicality too small to call? The other team has the option of letting it slide, but the way they explained it was "in regular season play, sure we're not gonna call it. But this is for money, you have to call it". They also said the rule works this way because it prevents someone from pulling a fast one. If the 8 goes in the wrong pocket, you can't claim "well the marker's on the floor, you can't prove which pocket I originally marked"

I didn't like that argument so much because I cannot imagine anyone being sleazy enough to mark pocket A in full view of his team and their team, and then try to tell the ref he was going for pocket B. There's no way it could be 'confusing' or 'accidental'. This could only happen if an entire team is willing to lie outright to back up the player, and I haven't met a league team that's serious enough about the (not so hot) prize money to blatantly cheat for it in full view of 8-10 people.

I actually didn't like the money argument so much either.
If you consider it wrong to call a minor foul on someone during the regular season, it doesn't become right just because there's money involved.

So what do you guys think? I personally don't fault someone for calling it, but I appreciate and respect them if they let it slide. And if the situation is reversed, I personally let it slide. The victory is a little soured if that game was a decider and we would have lost it if the coaster decided to stay put.
 
As a ref, I would ask the opponent on the opposing team if they knew where the 'marker' was placed prior to the shot. If the answer is YES, then I would award the game to the shooter.

If the rule reads that the marker MUST be on the table in plain sight as the shooter is making the shot... then he loses if it falls off the table.. shooter beware of the rules.
 
If I were the opposing player, I would not have called him on this. If I were captain of the opposing team, I would have instructed my player to give him the game. I play to a higher authority than the APA (my conscious) and that will never change.

I know I would be this way because I've already done it IN VEGAS with my opponent taking the lead.
 
If the player marked the pocket as required, I don't think I would call it just because the marker slid off. Intent!

Steve
 
and in response to a particular situation -

I would award my opponent with the win on a typical Monday night, the divisional playoffs or the finals of the National event. There is no situation where I would try and take that win away from him. I understand this is an APA rule they are very firm about but that is simply not me. I would unscrew before I would break.
 
CreeDo said:
Our player marks the pocket for the 8. The marker is an official cardboard-y coaster thing. It slides off the rail and onto the floor. He makes the 8. The other team calls it a loss. The ref agrees.

He was upset, and so was most of the rest of the team, but I wasn't so much. My reasoning is that losing to a technicality sucks, but this is just one of many technicalities that we're expected to be aware of and be careful of.

What I'm wondering is... do you call this one? Is there any technicality too small to call? The other team has the option of letting it slide, but the way they explained it was "in regular season play, sure we're not gonna call it. But this is for money, you have to call it". They also said the rule works this way because it prevents someone from pulling a fast one. If the 8 goes in the wrong pocket, you can't claim "well the marker's on the floor, you can't prove which pocket I originally marked"

I didn't like that argument so much because I cannot imagine anyone being sleazy enough to mark pocket A in full view of his team and their team, and then try to tell the ref he was going for pocket B. There's no way it could be 'confusing' or 'accidental'. This could only happen if an entire team is willing to lie outright to back up the player, and I haven't met a league team that's serious enough about the (not so hot) prize money to blatantly cheat for it in full view of 8-10 people.

I actually didn't like the money argument so much either.
If you consider it wrong to call a minor foul on someone during the regular season, it doesn't become right just because there's money involved.

So what do you guys think? I personally don't fault someone for calling it, but I appreciate and respect them if they let it slide. And if the situation is reversed, I personally let it slide. The victory is a little soured if that game was a decider and we would have lost it if the coaster decided to stay put.
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Personally, I would not call it because I knew that they had marked the pocket and the marker slid off. Although they should be more careful, if I knew where it was going I would have a hard time calling it.

Here is the issue though, in a team event like VNEA, APA and BCA, it is not about me personnally, but about my team. Therefore, although I would try to convince my team to not take the foul, I would have to also adhere to the majority of the team.

My guess is that my team would most likely say that in regular league play they would let it slide but in a higher level event they would not.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
If I were the opposing player, I would not have called him on this. If I were captain of the opposing team, I would have instructed my player to give him the game. I play to a higher authority than the APA (my conscious) and that will never change.

I know I would be this way because I've already done it IN VEGAS with my opponent taking the lead.
Click to expand...

I wish all my opponents were as sporting as you Jude. If I were the opposing player I wouldn't have called him on it either, he had already done what was required of him as stated in the rules.

I've always been a spirit of the rule/law not a letter of the rule/law kinda person myself.

Now if the dude had just forgotten to patch the pocket I would have called him on it. My justification for this is I've seen too many disputed shots, misunderstood calls and so on to allow a game winning shot to be allowed without a patch(where patches are in the rule set)
 
Sounds like a good argument for getting rid of the pocket marking rule. Calling the ball in the pocket should be enough. I apologize for the side track but just looking at the bigger picture.

I mean, after you slop the ball in the pocket you didn't mark, couldn't you just take the marker and place it on that pocket and say, "what do you mean? I didn't move it! You're seeing things!". Same thing as if there were no marker involved and you claim you called it in the slopped pocket. Everyone knows you're lying to their face, so what's the difference? :confused:

The marker just seems like an unnecessary formality, IMO, although I've never tried it so I could be wrong. :)
 
wow, ridiculous. the point of the marker is to ensure that the opposing party knows the intended pocket, which they did. they took it way too far.
 
Marking the pocket is not in the "spirit of the game" IMO, and should be removed from the rules. Unfortunately, it is and we have to deal with it. APA aside, we call all the other shots in the game without marking the pocket. Why?

The best policy is "player beware".
 
I hated that rule in Vegas - the whole mark the pocket for 8ball. I had a 3-0 lead on a 6 (I was on the hill) and I forgot to take the marker off the pocket from the previous game....well, after a couple of innings I had the 13 and the 8 left. I made the 13, and got down to shoot the 8 - the opposing team's captain stood up, and at the same time my team yelled out "mark the pocket". I stood back up, and said, "please everyone, I'm trying to shoot!" I got back down, and banked the 8 cross corner to the marked pocket....when it wasn't a tough cut into the other corner. I said, "I was just too lazy to move it." I don't think the other team found the humor in it, but I thought it was funny. I've never lost because of a miss marked pocket, or anything like that, but I do think it's a dumb rule. If the intended pocket is in question...the opponent should just speak up and ask where it's going...what's wrong with that?
 
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supergreenman said:
I wish all my opponents were as sporting as you Jude. If I were the opposing player I wouldn't have called him on it either, he had already done what was required of him as stated in the rules.

I've always been a spirit of the rule/law not a letter of the rule/law kinda person myself.

Now if the dude had just forgotten to patch the pocket I would have called him on it. My justification for this is I've seen too many disputed shots, misunderstood calls and so on to allow a game winning shot to be allowed without a patch(where patches are in the rule set)
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Yeah, I was thinking about the rules one day and I asked myself, do I want to be remembered as that nit? I decided no.

There ARE rules that I abide by. I want coaches to be a minute, no more. I want double-hits called on everyone. I want game-play to be CLEAN. However, you play clean and make that 8ball where you called, you win. That's that.
 
CreeDo said:
Our player marks the pocket for the 8. The marker is an official cardboard-y coaster thing. It slides off the rail and onto the floor. He makes the 8. The other team calls it a loss. The ref agrees.

He was upset, and so was most of the rest of the team, but I wasn't so much. My reasoning is that losing to a technicality sucks, but this is just one of many technicalities that we're expected to be aware of and be careful of.

What I'm wondering is... do you call this one? Is there any technicality too small to call? The other team has the option of letting it slide, but the way they explained it was "in regular season play, sure we're not gonna call it. But this is for money, you have to call it". They also said the rule works this way because it prevents someone from pulling a fast one. If the 8 goes in the wrong pocket, you can't claim "well the marker's on the floor, you can't prove which pocket I originally marked"

I didn't like that argument so much because I cannot imagine anyone being sleazy enough to mark pocket A in full view of his team and their team, and then try to tell the ref he was going for pocket B. There's no way it could be 'confusing' or 'accidental'. This could only happen if an entire team is willing to lie outright to back up the player, and I haven't met a league team that's serious enough about the (not so hot) prize money to blatantly cheat for it in full view of 8-10 people.

I actually didn't like the money argument so much either.
If you consider it wrong to call a minor foul on someone during the regular season, it doesn't become right just because there's money involved.

So what do you guys think? I personally don't fault someone for calling it, but I appreciate and respect them if they let it slide. And if the situation is reversed, I personally let it slide. The victory is a little soured if that game was a decider and we would have lost it if the coaster decided to stay put.
Click to expand...

I can understand some of the stickler rules like a double hit on the cue ball or placing your marker in between two pockets, but if everyone watches someone place a marker and it falls off... who cares.
If this is any sort of playoff the opposing team and the ref should have seen where it was marked. If the 8 ball went in where the marker was it should be a win. The opposing team was obviously desperate for a win and not very sportsman like.
 
The bad thing about marking pockets is the fact that morons will try to use anything they can like this to try to get a game win.

Listen if you're not good enough to beat a person, then shake their hand and say GOOD GAME. Don't be a punk and try to figure out how to "cheat" someone out of a game.


I am lucky enough in our town that most people know me well enough to know when we play league we are playing call pocket. I havent had any problems in 7 years doing it this way.
 
What a pussy move!

Let me tell ya a story.

I backed my car over the neighbors cat. His green rep helmet popped right off I tell ya.

But hey, I didn't keep the cat, I gave it AND the helmet back. But that's just me.

Anyone that would take ANY win like that should never get his cat back.

That's about as weak of sportsmanship short of cheating there is.

IMO

(I did use my neighbor's snowshovel & concrete stain remover tho, without asking 1st. Was that being a bad sport too?)
 
I've heard that if the marker is left on the pocket (forgotten), and you make the 8 on the break in another pocket (not the marked one), you lose. What's with that?? 8 on the break wins without a pocket being called...right?? Lose the mark pocket rule!!
 
trustyrusty said:
I've heard that if the marker is left on the pocket (forgotten), and you make the 8 on the break in another pocket (not the marked one), you lose. What's with that?? 8 on the break wins without a pocket being called...right?? Lose the mark pocket rule!!
Click to expand...

That sounds like a crap rule to me. 8 on the break should always be a win... unless ole whitey follows.
I play APA masters and all balls are call pocket for 8 ball. Since its non-handicap we are better players and don't mark or call every shot, just the ones where there could be a question. 4 years doing it this way so far and I have never seen anyone use a marker for the 8 and there has never been a problem.
 
It's bad enough to lose to your opponent, but it's a whole different story when GRAVITY is the one who beats you.

BS rules like this one are a large part of why I will never play in an APA league.

As Jude said, if you play clean, and you pocket the 8 as intended, you should win, period.
 
Grab the coaster, sharpen it into a shank, and start cutting. Start with the ref. Anybody that would pull this move deserves a good paper cut.

Look, if anyone "ANYONE" saw him mark it, it's a no-brainer. That marking the pocket is ridiculous anyway. Slop counts all the way to the eight and you have to mark it? Call it, maybe. But, mark it?
 
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