Should league finals be held on barboxes?

[CreeDo]

So after a rough year at the VNEA finals, I got to wondering how it is our pretty good team got beat. The first instinct is to just say they're better and/or we dogged it.

But I kind of feel like 7 footers give inferior players an edge and makes the outcome sort of a coin flip. The winner seems to be determined by the break than the shooting (not so much breaking skill but which player ends up with fewer clusters). And everyone can be a hero and make long shots because in reality they aren't tough, everything's close and the pockets are enormous and very accepting.

Our own team plays on 9 footers and most (not all) of our away games are also on 9's. Coming to play the most important matches on toy tables feels like a letdown. It's pool, but it's a different form of pool from what I consider "real" pool. Maybe this is just a bad attitude.

PS: I realize it's a moot point... due to money and space constraints these will always be held on barboxes. So this is more just to see if my perspective is warped

 

[Alex Kanapilly]

So after a rough year at the VNEA finals, I got to wondering how it is our pretty good team got beat. The first instinct is to just say they're better and/or we dogged it.

But I kind of feel like 7 footers give inferior players an edge and makes the outcome sort of a coin flip. The winner seems to be determined by the break than the shooting (not so much breaking skill but which player ends up with fewer clusters). And everyone can be a hero and make long shots because in reality they aren't tough, everything's close and the pockets are enormous and very accepting.

Our own team plays on 9 footers and most (not all) of our away games are also on 9's. Coming to play the most important matches on toy tables feels like a letdown. It's pool, but it's a different form of pool from what I consider "real" pool. Maybe this is just a bad attitude.

PS: I realize it's a moot point... due to money and space constraints these will always be held on barboxes. So this is more just to see if my perspective is warped

They should be held on the kind of tables the league is played on. I've only played in leagues that play on 7' tables (I've seen and heard of leagues that play on big tables but I haven't been involved in any), why would you switch up at the end of the season? It doesn't make sense.
The "best" team doesn't always win, that's why you have to play.

I think if you're biased to the point that you think bar table pool is inferior to the "real" pool played on 9 footers, you should probably stick to big table pool.

Did your league play on 9' talbes all season then switch to barboxes for the finals? If so, disregard everything I just posted.:thumbup:

EDIT: Oops, just read your ENTIRE post and now I understand your frustration. I should have limited my post to just the opening line.

 

[stikapos]

Here's a question for you. How many times during the finals did you or your team either a) break and run out (or run out after opponent's first shot) or b) play an effective safety after the break while several of your balls were on the table ?

So far, I can think of one player that has beaten me because he was simply better. I could have tossed whitey in the urinal and he STILL would have gotten out! The rest of the losses were on me as I didn't do a) or b).

Compare bar box to NASCAR. Personally, I dont' understand why those drivers drive round and round for hours when the same dang drivers win week after week!?? That's really why leagues are played on bar boxes. To give everyone a chance. And I'm fine with that.

I hope that you find your answer on this subject.

tim

 

[rburgoyne]

So after a rough year at the VNEA finals, I got to wondering how it is our pretty good team got beat. The first instinct is to just say they're better and/or we dogged it.

But I kind of feel like 7 footers give inferior players an edge and makes the outcome sort of a coin flip. The winner seems to be determined by the break than the shooting (not so much breaking skill but which player ends up with fewer clusters). And everyone can be a hero and make long shots because in reality they aren't tough, everything's close and the pockets are enormous and very accepting.

Our own team plays on 9 footers and most (not all) of our away games are also on 9's. Coming to play the most important matches on toy tables feels like a letdown. It's pool, but it's a different form of pool from what I consider "real" pool. Maybe this is just a bad attitude.

PS: I realize it's a moot point... due to money and space constraints these will always be held on barboxes. So this is more just to see if my perspective is warped

I am in an area that all the pool halls have 9' tables, thus APA league is played on 9' tables. Everyone in the area does it and it has been this way for years. I feel playing on a bar box versus a 9' is two different games. A person use to a 9' will chuckle at a long bar box shot, but a 9' player will not be use to playing with so many clusters of balls. The few bar box tables in the area play very slow and are normally not level.

As Alex said, finals should be played on the same size table you play league on. The only problem is that APA allows areas to qualify on 9' tables and then have to shoot on a bar box once they are in Vegas. If you are not use to or have never played on a bar box, its going to be tough to do well on one.

 

[Cuebacca]

Since it's VNEA it should probably be held on Valleys. Do they make 9-foot Valley boxes? Even if they do, I think you could make an argument that they should hold the local finals on the same tables as the nationals, which I assume is 7-foot Valleys. If they had some tight-pocketed 7-footers that would be preferred, but I guess league is league, ya know? If they wanted to give the advantage to the best team, they'd make it longer races too.

Plus you have to consider that 8-ball on a bar box has its own challenges, such as more tendency to cause clusters that have to be dealt with. So you could say that a big table gives an advantage to the team that can break and run out more often. Small table would equalize that, but on the other hand if both teams can break and run out often, the small table might give an advantage to the team who can negotiate through clusters, or play an intelligent safe at the beginning of the game to improve their suite's layout.

I just look at league as an opportunity to learn to deal with far-from-ideal conditions, and hope that it causes my game to improve as a result. If I can succeed with that, I should still have an advantage over most people in my local league.

Also, I have noticed I typically have an opportunity to win in league. If I dog it, in a way I'm glad when the guy gets out. When I dog it, I'm supposed to lose. If we were on tight-pocketed big tables, he may dog it too and give me another chance, but I'd rather be forced not to make those mistakes in the first place, rather than to be given as many chances as I need to win. Just some things to consider.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This is a great question. I've been playing on 9foot tables my entire life. In fact, my mother recently found a pic of me at age 6 playing on a 9foot table. It is where I'm most comfortable. I'd love it if the Las Vegas events were on 9foot tables since I feel my strengths would be more evident.

However, it's just not possible. Smaller tables are so much easier to assemble and when you're talking about 200+ tables, it makes a HUGE difference. Those 9foot tables have the slate cut in 3 pieces as opposed to 7foot tables that only have one piece. Ask any table mechanic and he'll tell you there's no comparison. I would guess it takes about 20 minutes to assemble a 7foot table as opposed to 3 hours to assemble a 9foot table (since you'll need reclothing, too). The event would be far more expensive and everybody would then complain the payouts don't make sense.

So in sum, I'd love it if a national amateur event were on 9foot tables but I accept the simple truth that that will never be the case. One thing I've learned about myself is that if I can get a couple days just on barboxes (not just playing but watching, too), I'll eventually adapt and my strengths will become more evident as time progresses. It's a transition I've learned to live with.

 

[Brozif]

I think that what makes bar boxes so simple is what also makes them so difficult.

Just the limited space is what makes them so difficult. You put 16 balls on a table and see how many small clusters you have. You have to control whitey very well in a small cramped space to get out. If you have to break out clusters, you have to be very accurate as you still want to have a shot afterwards. I don't believe there is such a thing as "area position" when it comes to a bar box. You simply have a small window in which to place the cue ball. Of course the area gets a little bigger once you get your balls off of the table (object balls that is), but you still have the opponents balls to get around (again, object balls).

But the size is what makes them so simple sometimes. There is no such thing as a long shot. At least not to a player accustomed to playing on a 9 foot table. But again playing position on that small of a table is difficult. On a 9 foot table you can play position using the angles and sending whitey 2 or 3 rails without too much fear of scratching. I can't say the same for the bar box. Yes you can send the cue ball around the rails, but the chances of scratching increase a bit more. JMHO

Of course I've played on all size tables and have found that I can find the pocket with whitey quite consistently on all of them!!

 

[supergreenman]

Vnea

It's my understanding that most VNEA sactioned leagues play on barboxes. All regional events are on barboxes.

I was supprised to find that your league played on 9' tables as I thought VNEA was primarily a barbox league.

I concur with a previous poster that regional tournaments should be held on barboxes because that's what they play on in the Nationals.

 

[ScottW]

Considering the V in VNEA is for "Valley", go figure.

It's my understanding (from the one VNEA league I played in in Colorado) that VNEA leagues *have* to be played on Valley bar-boxes, and are only operated by Valley equipment distributors and such. Basically it's a business-growing enterprise for Valley.

So based on what I've been told, I'm quite surprised that there's a Valley league running on 9 footers. Is it a sanctioned VNEA league? Or perhaps is it just some folks running their own operation, same rulesets/etc and just calling it that to keep it simple?

As for the original post - better you deal with the barboxes locally than take your 9-footer-acclimated team to Vegas and discover it's all barboxes at that point.

 

[sfleinen]

So after a rough year at the VNEA finals, I got to wondering how it is our pretty good team got beat. The first instinct is to just say they're better and/or we dogged it.

But I kind of feel like 7 footers give inferior players an edge and makes the outcome sort of a coin flip. The winner seems to be determined by the break than the shooting (not so much breaking skill but which player ends up with fewer clusters). And everyone can be a hero and make long shots because in reality they aren't tough, everything's close and the pockets are enormous and very accepting.

Our own team plays on 9 footers and most (not all) of our away games are also on 9's. Coming to play the most important matches on toy tables feels like a letdown. It's pool, but it's a different form of pool from what I consider "real" pool. Maybe this is just a bad attitude.

PS: I realize it's a moot point... due to money and space constraints these will always be held on barboxes. So this is more just to see if my perspective is warped

CreeDo:

I feel that the finals should be played on EXACTLY THE SAME EQUIPMENT as the equipment that got you there in the first place. Why change up at the end of the season? If you got to the finals because of superior play on a barbox, it behooves you to continue that same superior play in the finals, on the very same equipment. Don't forget -- you're matching up with another team that earned their spot in the finals, just like your team did, so a "manly man" change of equipment is really not necessary, nor is it smart. Just have your team play their best game -- full of run-outs or appropriate early safeties when a run-out is not possible (i.e. while you have lots of balls on the table as "stikapos" sagely advised in post #3), and you can't ask for more.

The barbox does offer a tighter playing surface (i.e. less real estate to maneuver the cue ball through), as well as a non-standard cue-ball (i.e. oversized/overweight, magnetic), so it has its own unique challenges as compared to the 9-footers. These unique qualities require unique skillsets to play well on.

Just my humble opinion; hope it's worthwhile!
-Sean

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

Ditto, What Jude said.

 

[SKUNKBOY]

I didn't vote

Because my answer would be that you should play your league games on the same sized tables as what is offered at the Tournaments. Or, play your Tournament on the same sized tables as your league games are played.

Since you probably don't have any control over what is offered at your Tournament, maybe you need to reconsider what you play on in leagues.

I agree with those that have mentioned Valley. As mentioned, it is a Valley tournament and any Valley tournament that I have ever seen or heard about has been played on 7 foot Valley tables. I also agree that VNEA requires all leagues to play on Valley tables (I don't know if Valley makes a 9 footer but they're usually 7 footers).

In the Iowa State Poolplayers Association Tournament, we use Valley 7 footers. It's not a requirement by the Association, but we have a very good supplier and Tournament Director in High Country. We've considered using Diamond tables but one of the strongest arguments against that was the fact that over 90% of our leagues use Valley 7 footers and it wouldn't be right to hold our State Championship Tournaments with tables that were not the same. Just that little bit of difference would make easy excusses for losing.

I would say that if your league has most of it's matches played on 9 footers, you really should look into changing the tournament to 9 footers...I guess you would need to take inventory on all of your league sponsor locations to see how many of each size there really are...majority should rule...or even have two seperate touernaments...one on 7 footers and one on 9 footers.

JMHO...Ken

 

[TheBook]

They should play on what the league is based on. If the league plays on BB than the finals should be on BB.

I have a 9ft table and I can do more BR's on that table than I can on a BB.

The reason is that the balls get spread out further and there are less clusters.

On a BB position play is a little tighter and you end up with more clusters to break out.

A long shot is a long shot. If it goes straight for a foot it will go 9 ft.

There are a lot of pros that don't like playing on BB because it is a different game.

 

[Andrew Manning]

8ball is significantly different when played on a bar-box vs. a 9-footer. Because of this, the regional and national tournaments should be on the same size tables that the majority of the league plays their regular season matches on. That's the fairest way.

For my own preference, I would always choose to play on a 9' table. I like the game more that way. I have observed, like the OP, that the clusters on the 7' table don't necessarily favor the player who's better at dealing with clusters; they usually favor the player whose balls happen to be laying more favorably. The luck of how the balls are positioned after the break becomes huge.

And I totally agree with what Jude says, that in a national-level tournament, there's just no way to do it on 9' tables, and so all this is sort of meaningless conjecture.

-Andrew

 

[Njhustler1]

my two cents is it should just be consistent. and if its not going to be, then it needs to be announced ahead of time so all the participants are well aware of the situation in advance. i think its a little harder on the less experienced players to move over to a full size table than it is for more experienced players to adjust to a bar box. but again, if everyone knows that going in, then there shouldnt be any complaints.

 

[Roger Long]

So after a rough year at the VNEA finals, I got to wondering how it is our pretty good team got beat. The first instinct is to just say they're better and/or we dogged it.

But I kind of feel like 7 footers give inferior players an edge and makes the outcome sort of a coin flip. The winner seems to be determined by the break than the shooting (not so much breaking skill but which player ends up with fewer clusters). And everyone can be a hero and make long shots because in reality they aren't tough, everything's close and the pockets are enormous and very accepting.

Our own team plays on 9 footers and most (not all) of our away games are also on 9's. Coming to play the most important matches on toy tables feels like a letdown. It's pool, but it's a different form of pool from what I consider "real" pool. Maybe this is just a bad attitude.

PS: I realize it's a moot point... due to money and space constraints these will always be held on barboxes. So this is more just to see if my perspective is warped

CreeDo,

I haven't read any other replies to your post, so maybe someone else has already made the points I'm about to make. I voted that league championships should only be played on bar boxes. I voted that way because:

1. Most leagues, country-wide, are played on bar boxes, so going to 9' tables in the championships would not be good for the majority of players.

2. Most leagues, country-wide, are geared to help players who are new to the game to have fun. They have fun when they have a chance to win. The easy pockets that are on most bar boxes give them that chance. The pockets do not, as you say, "give inferior players an edge" but rather take the edge away from the superior players.

Now please note that I said "MOST" leagues are this way, not ALL. I think some leagues try to attract and/or cultivate advanced players; or at least try to promote a higher level of play. The BCAPL is one, and one of the ways they promote better play is by supplying 7' tables in their championships that have pockets that play like the toughest of 9' tables. The result: The edge goes back to the superior players.

So either way, in league championships, the bar box is here to stay.

Roger

 

[tucson9ball]

So after a rough year at the VNEA finals, I got to wondering how it is our pretty good team got beat. The first instinct is to just say they're better and/or we dogged it.

But I kind of feel like 7 footers give inferior players an edge and makes the outcome sort of a coin flip. The winner seems to be determined by the break than the shooting (not so much breaking skill but which player ends up with fewer clusters). And everyone can be a hero and make long shots because in reality they aren't tough, everything's close and the pockets are enormous and very accepting.

Our own team plays on 9 footers and most (not all) of our away games are also on 9's. Coming to play the most important matches on toy tables feels like a letdown. It's pool, but it's a different form of pool from what I consider "real" pool. Maybe this is just a bad attitude.

PS: I realize it's a moot point... due to money and space constraints these will always be held on barboxes. So this is more just to see if my perspective is warped

Are you referring to the finals in Las Vegas? If so, they are always on bar boxes. If you are talking about your local league, well they can play on whatever they agree to.
As for me, league is only a way to qualify for Vegas. So, why practice on 9footers all season if you are going to play Nationals on bar box?
In reference to your "pretty good team", maybe it is like the big fish in small pond theory. Maybe your team is not as good as you thought they were? I would say practice more on those bar boxes if I were your team. JMHO

 

[supergreenman]

I'd also like to add to what people are saying about barboxes taking some of the edge away from the lesser player.

I'd say that until you get to the advanced or masters divisions where it's pretty much run out or die the better team will in most cases come out ahead.

 

[jgpool]

Bar boxes

It's counter productive to play 9FTrs all year then play BBs in the finals then play BBs in the Nationals, but at least you are headed in the right direction. If the Nationals is your goal? One thing I didn't see mentioned on the 9FTrs compared to the BB was that on a BB it's easier to put a "No Holds Barred" saftey on someone, lots of clusters to hide behind. What fun that is!!! :grin:

 

[CreeDo]

Keep the votes coming.

Here are the main points I'm getting so far:

1. It's meaningless to even worry about it because it's simply not practical to play on 9 footers. I agree with Jude on this. There were 100+ tables in this room and it simply would not fit enough 9 footers without making it a weeklong event. At which point your tables and cloth are not only pricier, but your hotel cost. It's pure fantasy to even hope for such a thing.

2. Play on the same equipment as what you used during the season: If somehow #1 didn't apply, I'd still be stumped here. Our breakdown is like this -
2 locations: we play on 9's
1 locations: we play on 8's
3 location: we play on 7's

Since our home base is one of the 9 footer locations, we end up playing on those more than the others but it's probably close to 50/50 for 9 vs not-9.

3. We ought to be on valley barboxes because it's a valley sponsored league and that's how it's supposed to be played: I didn't realize this and have no explanation as to why we get to play on non-valley 9's and 8's sometimes

4. No matter what my particular local setup is, the majority of players in the majority of leagues are playing on bar boxes: This sounds right to me. Asking me to adjust to a barbox is much more fair than asking a guy with no 9-footer experience to play on 9 footers. It'd be a heist. And maybe we're hurting ourselves by playing on 9's when we know the finals will be barboxes. I'd probably enjoy league less if I had to play 100% small tables though. I'm not even sure that I'd stick with it. I know some players (shane) say barbox 8-ball is great but I'm not getting into it.

5. Smaller tables do favor weaker players, but that's ok, that's what keeps it interesting and gives them a fair shot at the money: I'll buy this one. I guess you could think of it as a "spot" we give to them. We don't handicap the games as in regular season play so this is the next best option, to take pure shooting ability out of the picture and make it more about brains (though I'd argue it's more about luck of the post-break layout than it is about brains).

... sounds like bottom line is it all comes back to point #1, and I'd better learn to play on a barbox if I want to play league with any hopes of winning something. It's tough though. Even though actual league matches are 50/50 between 9-footers and smaller tables... my casual games are 100% 9 footers. So I'm probably playing.. .I dunno, 40 or 50 games on a 9 footer and 4 on a barbox each week.