Please explain this to me

Rak9up

Rak9up

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been playing for 25+ years now and invested alot of time and money.

So someone explain to me again why a guy that picked up a cue 2 months ago should be handicapped so that the match is equal?

Don't get me wrong I love the game of pool and new people playing is a
good thing and I will help anyone that asks.

But this is killing the game of pool....I quote

"But if I practice the director will move me up"
"you know what a 5 is....its a smart 7"
"why should I play 5 or 10 dollars in tourney if I have no chance"

I've played in tournements straight races to 4 or 7 where I get matched up with a guy that if we were to gamble would give me the last 2. Win or lose in a straight up set I'm fine with that becuse we both had the same chance to win.

If I lose the next day I come in pissed and practice harder... if win I come in the next day happy practice harder

But when a two handicapp on has to make 1 ball to my 300 or win 1 game to my 7 I have a problem with that.

Is it just me...or should I call Dr. Phil or wait for Obama to bail ME out.
 
Rak9up said:
I've been playing for 25+ years now and invested alot of time and money.

So someone explain to me again why a guy that picked up a cue 2 months ago should be handicapped so that the match is equal?

Don't get me wrong I love the game of pool and new people playing is a
good thing and I will help anyone that asks.

But this is killing the game of pool....I quote

"But if I practice the director will move me up"
"you know what a 5 is....its a smart 7"
"why should I play 5 or 10 dollars in tourney if I have no chance"

I've played in tournements straight races to 4 or 7 where I get matched up with a guy that if we were to gamble would give me the last 2. Win or lose in a straight up set I'm fine with that becuse we both had the same chance to win.

If I lose the next day I come in pissed and practice harder... if win I come in the next day happy practice harder

But when a two handicapp on has to make 1 ball to my 300 or win 1 game to my 7 I have a problem with that.

Is it just me...or should I call Dr. Phil or wait for Obama to bail ME out.
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Who would play in the tournaments? No one since, they have zero chance of winning. You would get a field of just a hand full of players. It would be self defeating and the tournament would die. If you watch, even with the handicaps the best players still always win the tournaments.
 
In the NFL, they call it parity. The idea is to keep the competition as even as possible. It's a reality in most leagues, and most local tournaments. It does get more players into tournaments, which usually increases the payouts, so there is an up side.

Steve
 
Reply

macguy said:
Who would play in the tournaments? No one since, they have zero chance of winning. You would get a field of just a hand full of players. It would be self defeating and the tournament would die. If you watch, even with the handicaps the best players still always win the tournaments.
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I've played in many a tournament where I had no chance of winning. People like Tommy Kennedy has drilllled me more times than I can count. And it was always a full board. Why would I play if I had no chance of winning what could I possibly gain.... KNOWLEDGE

Its called paying your dues you souldn't have the chance of winning handed to you without it. You learn how to win by first learning how to lose. If Tommy won he did so because he deserved it because he practiced longer and harder and played better.

Not because he begged the tournament director or the league operator to move him down so he could have a chance to win.
 
I always got upset at this too, in the APA I used to have to win 7 games before another guy could win 2. On 2 different nights I scratched on the eight and lost another one the old fashioned way, and it led me to complain to the league director. "What's the point in making the game a coin toss? The better player should always win!"

In retrospect though, I lost fair and square and I should win those matches (and generally do 90% of the time). The handicapping doesn't make it truly 50/50, it just makes things maybe 70/30 in favor of the better player (which is still a step up from 90/10).

It's one of those things I feel should be improved, but I have no idea how to improve it and wouldn't change it until a better way comes along. You have to accept that lower level players want to play, and they have to have a chance to win. They aren't going to come back and win "the next day" as you put it no matter how pissed and determined they are. Determination doesn't make up for the 25 year edge you've got on them and it never will.
 
Rak9up: I understand your aggrevation and I agree with you, but I've conceded that it's a different world out there now. Unfortunately for today's player, there isn't a cheat code or "easy"/"medium"/"hard" settings for the game of pool.
 
Here's a scenario I seen many times in the 45+ years I have been around pool - a weak player keeps getting beaten by a stronger player, maybe losing $40 to $50 to him on a weekly basis for months. So the weak player decides to improve his game and starts practicing regularly, maybe even buys a table so he can practice at home. Finally, after months of working on his game the once weaker player challenges the once stronger player and BEATS HIM one set for $20. No sooner has the game ball dropped into the pocket than the once stronger player says something like this, "Gee, your game has really improved. I can't hang with you playing even, but I'll try you with the last two."

Now I understand about "paying your dues" and all that, but I also understand that many players are more interested in winning tournaments or cash than paying dues.
 
Having a handicap system and running handicap tournaments side by side with scratch tournaments certainly hasn't killed the sport of golf for either the very talented or the very moderate players and I'd guess pool would kill for what golf has by way of public perception and backing :smile:

Having said that, being off 'one' I rarely bother playing in handicap golf tournaments and, whilst no worldbeater on the table either, have personally never had any interest whatsoever in handicap pool competitions, only scratch events.
 
I just wanna clock the sandbaggers!!!

memikey said:
Having a handicap system and running handicap tournaments side by side with scratch tournaments certainly hasn't killed the sport of golf for either the very talented or the very moderate players and I'd guess pool would kill for what golf has by way of public perception and backing :smile:

Having said that, being off 'one' I rarely bother playing in handicap golf tournaments and, whilst no worldbeater on the table either, have personally never had any interest whatsoever in handicap pool competitions, only scratch events.
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Good analogy memikey. The honor system (handicapping) is so abused that some people in pool league and golf openly discuss how they manipulate the system. Puh-fuggin-thetic pond scum.

Handicapping is however, a necessary evil. How else can you increase participation if the top of the top win every tournament? I play golf and give strokes or get freely - freely to those I have clocked that is!

Handicapped pool tournaments are only as fair as how well the players and TD's police EVERY player's rating. If a player hasn't been properly clocked, they should either not be allowed to play or should not get a handicap. Recall Q Masters policy of "only locals play in our local tourneys"?
 
Rak9up said:
I've played in many a tournament where I had no chance of winning. People like Tommy Kennedy has drilllled me more times than I can count. And it was always a full board. Why would I play if I had no chance of winning what could I possibly gain.... KNOWLEDGE

Its called paying your dues you souldn't have the chance of winning handed to you without it. You learn how to win by first learning how to lose. If Tommy won he did so because he deserved it because he practiced longer and harder and played better.

Not because he begged the tournament director or the league operator to move him down so he could have a chance to win.
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I have been playing in a non-handicap tournament the last few Tuesday nights. I am going to play again tomorrow night. There is no way I am going to win or even come close to winning. I don't care. I enter because I want to play new people, I want to play people better than me and see what they are doing and how they win.

The best knowledge comes from defeat and learning from others who are better. I am there to improve my game and socialize with other pool players.
 
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Payin' dues...

So back in about 1990 or so my 19 yr old young, dumb and full of...ego butt walks up to one of the all time legends of pool in my area and I ask him, "John I wanna play you man, what will ya spot me?" Big John Fresno looks me dead in the eye and makes the following statement..."Sam, I aint got none of your money in my pocket...I don't owe you a thing...but we can play some heads-up if you want!"

Best words of advice I ever heard about pool! I wish the younger generation of players coming up could understand that statement!

P.S. R.I.P. Big John, you are missed brotha...
 
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About a year ago, a friend of mine talked me into playing on a APA 3 man team Master's league (no handicap). It seems this was created for the 6-7 skill level players that had improved their games enough to no longer be part of the handicapped APA system due to the 23 rule. The attraction for me was it was a money league with a chance to win a free trip to Vegas, so why not.

My team mates and I are no world beaters but are very competive on the regional tour level. I was shocked at the low level of play from the other teams. To say we buzzsawed our way through the league is an understatement.

About two months into the session, the some of other teams complained to the league director how unfair it was in our domination of the league. One of the ideas discussed to combat this was that our opponents would get credit for 2 games for each single game they won. Typical APA mentality - I can't win, so handicap it for me. To his credit, the league director said no way, it's a no handicap league.

Well, the league had 16 teams when we started. At the end of the second session, we were down to 6.

Was this exodus due to our team? Most likely, so we quit and joined the local no handicap BCA league to qualify for Vegas.

The handicapped APA system has its place in the pool world. Maybe as a way to get noobies interested in the game but as a system to create excellence in play, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Stones
 
Rak9up said:
I've played in many a tournament where I had no chance of winning. People like Tommy Kennedy has drilllled me more times than I can count. And it was always a full board. Why would I play if I had no chance of winning what could I possibly gain.... KNOWLEDGE

Its called paying your dues you souldn't have the chance of winning handed to you without it. You learn how to win by first learning how to lose. If Tommy won he did so because he deserved it because he practiced longer and harder and played better.

Not because he begged the tournament director or the league operator to move him down so he could have a chance to win.
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You asked a question. I have run many tournaments and I can tell you people won't play. Maybe once and a while, but never on a weekly basis and the tournaments just die. What you would do personally has nothing to do with what the average player will do.
 
I also agree that handicap tournaments aren't very good for improving the lesser players game at all. Think of boxing where one player is forced to tie one hand behind his back. Football where all players from one team have to wear a patch over one eye. Tennis where one player has to play with a smaller racket. Baseball where they won't allow a certain pitcher to use any of his pitches except for a fastball and a slider.
I could go on all day long. The object of any sport is to put two opponents against eachother to test their skills and the opponent with the better skill should win..................................period. To have a system where the player/team with the least skill could still concievably be called "winner" is not IMHO what sport is about.
dave
 
I'm pretty sure the members here know my position on ranking. If not, here goes.

APA and other leagues promote fun, not pool for the most part. Not to say that there aren't a lot of people that can really play in leagues. The leagues have changed the way people view players in general. The key is to be underranked just like in the gambling world. They have killed action for those who have put in decades on the table. I know we're not in the old days. But, in the old days, you had to step up. There is not much "stepping" these days. So, get your resume's out and bring along a deck of cards.
 
Best tournament handicapp I've seen.

week 1-everyone starts out even. (say race to 4).Winner- next week spots everyone a game for 1 month (next week 5-4 race)

week 2- Winner- next week spots everyone a game for 1 month

Week 3-Winner- next week spots everyone a game for 1 month

So on

So lets say there is a real good player is in your area. Week 1 he wins
he deserves the money but next week he goes to 5. He wins again goes to a 6. Eventually the other good players will start winning money. It will stabalize and spread the wealth among the better players. Your lower APA players with no heart to play heads up after a few weeks see some sort of handicapp and will start playing. But this system usually keeps the money in the better players hands where it belongs but does spread the wealth so to say. And lets say a low player is having the nite of his life getting rolls and playing above his normal level wins... in one month he will go back to where he belongs.
 
Rak9up said:
I've played in many a tournament where I had no chance of winning. People like Tommy Kennedy has drilllled me more times than I can count. And it was always a full board. Why would I play if I had no chance of winning what could I possibly gain.... KNOWLEDGE

Its called paying your dues you souldn't have the chance of winning handed to you without it. You learn how to win by first learning how to lose. If Tommy won he did so because he deserved it because he practiced longer and harder and played better.

Not because he begged the tournament director or the league operator to move him down so he could have a chance to win.
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I think you just answered you own question. People today don't want to pay the dues that the rest of us have already paid. Too much work.
 
My handicap tournaments

Rak9up said:
I've been playing for 25+ years now and invested alot of time and money.

So someone explain to me again why a guy that picked up a cue 2 months ago should be handicapped so that the match is equal?....

....Is it just me...or should I call Dr. Phil or wait for Obama to bail ME out.
Click to expand...

Handicap tournaments winning 1 or 2 games doesn't fit in our organization...(PR Billiard Federation).

This is how we do it:

I have classified most PR players in Category 1 to 5.
Double A - probably may run a rack
Triple A1 - runs at least 1-2 racks
Triple A2 - runs at least 2-3 racks
Triple A3 - runs at least 3-4 racks
Triple A4 - runs at least 4-5 racks
Pro - runs at least 5 racks or more...

Let say I have an Open tournament - Doble Elimination, race to 6 winners side, race to 5 in one loss side.

We do our drawings at random.

If a Double A player has to play against a Triple A1 - The Triple A1 has to win 7 games versus the Double A's 6 games.

If a Triple A1 plays a Triple A4, the Triple A1 wins with 6 games versus 9 games for the Triple A4,

Depending upon the number of players and categories, I mostly limit the tournament to 24 players.

This handicap is still not easy for the most proficient players but it has been the only way to reduce the advantage of the handicap to the lesser player. For every 1 game the lesser Double A player wins, the Triple A has to compensate with at least 2 wins per every 1 of the lesser player. The strong players mostly win the tournaments, although there has been a few surprises.

The main purpose of our handicap is to commit the lesser players to improve their game, and since 2003 when we started our organization, we have seen Doble A players go up 2-3 notches and are currently Triple A2 and Triple A3 players, capable of wining matches against Triple A3, 4, and our Pro's.

Some of our players have been able to knock out or win against Pro Players such as Gabe Owen, Corey Duel, Rob Saez, Tony Robles, Frankie Hernandez, Flaco Rodriguez, in events celebrated in Puerto Rico. None of our players have been successful against Johnny Archer, whom have won 2 Puerto Rico tournaments basically without competition.
 
When I first started playing I looked for the best players in the room and wanted to be able to beat them. I paid my dues and put practice time in and now everything is handicap. Doesn't seem right. Some guy over in the corner with not 2 clues about how to play can go tell his friends that he just won against me... Sucks!
 
Rak9up said:
I've been playing for 25+ years now and invested alot of time and money.

So someone explain to me again why a guy that picked up a cue 2 months ago should be handicapped so that the match is equal?

Don't get me wrong I love the game of pool and new people playing is a
good thing and I will help anyone that asks.

But this is killing the game of pool....I quote

"But if I practice the director will move me up"
"you know what a 5 is....its a smart 7"
"why should I play 5 or 10 dollars in tourney if I have no chance"

I've played in tournements straight races to 4 or 7 where I get matched up with a guy that if we were to gamble would give me the last 2. Win or lose in a straight up set I'm fine with that becuse we both had the same chance to win.

If I lose the next day I come in pissed and practice harder... if win I come in the next day happy practice harder

But when a two handicapp on has to make 1 ball to my 300 or win 1 game to my 7 I have a problem with that.

Is it just me...or should I call Dr. Phil or wait for Obama to bail ME out.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the handicap world. I had to give up 3 games on the wire in a race to 7. I had 6 games, my opponent get to 4 and I lose. Another time I give up 4 games in race to 7. I get to hill my opponent gets to 3 and I lose. Yeah, love those handicaps!:eek:
I would rather play in open tournaments and roll the dice.:thumbup:
 
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