I think you made the right call. I also think player A should have told player B to sit down and STFU while it's not his turn.
Chicken Chit Move Or Not ?
- Thread starter Bigtruck
- Start date
Player A took the ball in hand and intentionally fouled and handed it back. How is that the TD's problem?
Ray
chit move??
Having ran tournments for a number of yr, you as TD have the final say!! and that is it!! playing QB fouls onley if it did not cross the patheof original shoot no foul. you also had the option of having them start a new game !!! but you are the man !!!!:angry:
Having ran tournments for a number of yr, you as TD have the final say!! and that is it!! playing QB fouls onley if it did not cross the patheof original shoot no foul. you also had the option of having them start a new game !!! but you are the man !!!!:angry:
The "call goes to the shooter" rule, as some people discussed, does not come into play when there may be a path foul. Under the rules, a path foul can be decided at the discretion of the tournament director, even if they were not watching the shot. The reason for this is because a path foul can happen, on accident, in any normal shot; the players can't expect to have a ref watching every shot in case of a path foul. The TD made the call, and it should have been final.
pool_rob9
Registered
Hey ray...If a ref is not called then the shooter has the call. It may or may be a foul...who knows. However, a disagreement like that always falls to the shooters discresion. It's up to the opponent to call a ref. If they don't, they don't have a leg to stand on in the argument. However if the moved object ball or the place or path it took does or would have effected the outcome of the shot...it is a foul. No splittin hairs over fractions of inches in weather or not a precise pathwas missed by an eigth inch something. But, without a ref it lies in the shooters call. No instant replay.
I feel dumb cuz I guess I'm the only one who is wondering "what's the chickenshìt move"?
That the shooter gave up ball in hand due to the other player's whining? That the player whined when he should have just shut up? That the TD allowed a player to voluntarily overturn his ruling?
The shooter was right to turn the ball over. He screwed up. This is the reason some places insist on all balls fouls... it takes the guesswork out of things. It doesn't sound like he did it to be "honorable" though, it sounds like he was just being passive aggressive and wanted to make player B feel guilty for complaining (which player B was right to do).
Sounds like it backfired on him. Good.
That the shooter gave up ball in hand due to the other player's whining? That the player whined when he should have just shut up? That the TD allowed a player to voluntarily overturn his ruling?
The shooter was right to turn the ball over. He screwed up. This is the reason some places insist on all balls fouls... it takes the guesswork out of things. It doesn't sound like he did it to be "honorable" though, it sounds like he was just being passive aggressive and wanted to make player B feel guilty for complaining (which player B was right to do).
Sounds like it backfired on him. Good.
just a thought. i bet player b was either c.f. or j.h.
Nope. Both of those guys were well behaved the entire day. Never seen otherwise.
Again, I'm not naming names. Just getting some input from some experienced Peeps.
Thanks,
Ray
This a a good example of why this is a good thread.
Player B has NO RIGHT to cry about the ruling. It was NO foul. As many here have already pointed out, the TD's ruling is final. Even if it's wrong (which in this case it was not). To continue the whining routine after the ruling was a move to rally the rail, which were friendly to player B already. It worked. Player A did not go against my ruling. He simply took an intentional foul to shut, player B and the rail, up.
Hope that makes it more clear.
By Monday player B (who was still whining) had now changed his story to me that he was whining about the ball not being replaced to it's original position. While that IS an option that he would have had, it never came up to me that day.
Ray
Cheers and Jeers
Thumbs Up to Player A-He gets "It" and probably loves the game and life.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Player B-Learn from this Honor is something earned-sounds like even if you were right, you were wrong. minus 1/2 credit for nit like behavior
Ray- Bless you and kudos to all tourney directors thats why you get the big bucks, err I mean trucks
Thumbs Up to Player A-He gets "It" and probably loves the game and life.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Player B-Learn from this Honor is something earned-sounds like even if you were right, you were wrong. minus 1/2 credit for nit like behavior
Ray- Bless you and kudos to all tourney directors thats why you get the big bucks, err I mean trucks
Clueless on "path" rules
I don't know that I know enough about the applicable rules to determine what should have happened in event the TD was not called over.
In "cue ball fouls ony": If a player accidentally moves an object ball in the act of shooting and the OB's movement subsequently affects or appears to have maybe affected the outcome of the shot, and/or the next shot, what's the ruling?
Is the proper terminology "path rules"?
I don't know that I know enough about the applicable rules to determine what should have happened in event the TD was not called over.
In "cue ball fouls ony": If a player accidentally moves an object ball in the act of shooting and the OB's movement subsequently affects or appears to have maybe affected the outcome of the shot, and/or the next shot, what's the ruling?
Is the proper terminology "path rules"?
That's true. It would be player B's option to move it back. If he took that option, Player A would have no shot. He was too busy crying about the "balls crossing paths" call being wrong. When he called Monday, still whining, (even though he was given ball in hand by player A), He now changed his story to say he was whining about the ball not being put back. I never heard anything to that effect at the time, nor did I see him attempt to put the ball back, before he was given ball in hand OR after.
Ray
No matter the calibre...
crawfish:
Yeah, but where was it placed -- behind his ear? In that case, it would only take "once" to do it!
crawfish:
Yeah, but where was it placed -- behind his ear?
In that case, it would only take "once" to do it!
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If the shooter believed he fouled and wanted to, he would have just given player b ball in hand w/no need to get the tourny director involved. It appears this was not the case. He only gave up ball in hand because of player b acting like a baby...which is chicken chit.
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Not enough info
Ray:
Not enough info here for "outsiders" to make a fairly accurate "guestimation."
At what point in time did Player A contact the 2-ball with his cue? In the process of stroking the cue ball? E.g.: was he jacked-up over the 2-ball, or was the 2-ball partially obscuring a clean hit on the cue ball -- and during final cue delivery, the tip of his cue hit the 2-ball on its way to the cue ball? If so, that's a cue ball FOUL. (However, since Player B didn't call a ref over to watch the hit, that's his own fault -- Player A still has the table, and that's in most rulebooks. As they say, "You sleep, you weep.")
If, on the other hand, Player A's cue tip hit the 2-ball *after* the cue ball was already stroked (e.g. as he was lifting his bridge hand up off the table), that's not a cue ball foul. However your tournament deals with this, e.g. Player B dictates whether the 2-ball should be moved back to its original position at his/her discretion, is totally up to your house rules.
I say "chicken chit," but then again, I'm only basing this on Player B's whining and crying after the fact -- poor sportsmanship, especially when it's common knowledge to call a ref over during questionable shots. (And even a moderately experienced player knows these instantly upon seeing them -- we all sit up in our chair when we see someone jacking up over a ball to make a shot, or when we see someone cueing very, very close to an obstructing object ball. If you find yourself sitting up in the chair to watch, shouldn't that be your signal that it's a questionable shot, to call a ref over?? IMHO.)
-Sean
Ray:
Not enough info here for "outsiders" to make a fairly accurate "guestimation."
At what point in time did Player A contact the 2-ball with his cue? In the process of stroking the cue ball? E.g.: was he jacked-up over the 2-ball, or was the 2-ball partially obscuring a clean hit on the cue ball -- and during final cue delivery, the tip of his cue hit the 2-ball on its way to the cue ball? If so, that's a cue ball FOUL. (However, since Player B didn't call a ref over to watch the hit, that's his own fault -- Player A still has the table, and that's in most rulebooks. As they say, "You sleep, you weep.")
If, on the other hand, Player A's cue tip hit the 2-ball *after* the cue ball was already stroked (e.g. as he was lifting his bridge hand up off the table), that's not a cue ball foul. However your tournament deals with this, e.g. Player B dictates whether the 2-ball should be moved back to its original position at his/her discretion, is totally up to your house rules.
I say "chicken chit," but then again, I'm only basing this on Player B's whining and crying after the fact -- poor sportsmanship, especially when it's common knowledge to call a ref over during questionable shots. (And even a moderately experienced player knows these instantly upon seeing them -- we all sit up in our chair when we see someone jacking up over a ball to make a shot, or when we see someone cueing very, very close to an obstructing object ball. If you find yourself sitting up in the chair to watch, shouldn't that be your signal that it's a questionable shot, to call a ref over?? IMHO.)
-Sean
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fess up truck
you know you just wanted to talk about chicken.
M.C.
you know you just wanted to talk about chicken.
M.C.
Damn, that happened to me 2 days ago! The object ball I moved moved less than an inch, then the cue comes around and barely nudges it and freezes to it. I had made the shot and asked my opponent what to do. Since I was hooked beyond hooked he just gave me a sly look and said "looks like your shot!".
Hey... What if the cueball crosses the path where the object ball would have been had it not been accidentally moved? Sounds to me (from your OP) that would be a foul.
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