Rules Question

Oldwestside

Oldwestside

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I shot with an A-Player on Friday and he made a nice shot but touched a ball as he was lifting his cue and backing away from the table. He said the shot counted but he took one off his total score for fouling; he said the ball counted because the foul was made after the shot.

What is the rule on this? How can a player know if the foul is committed before, after, or during a shot.

Thanks in advance.
 
Oldwestside said:
I shot with an A-Player on Friday and he made a nice shot but touched a ball as he was lifting his cue and backing away from the table. He said the shot counted but he took one off his total score for fouling; he said the ball counted because the foul was made after the shot.

What is the rule on this? How can a player know if the foul is committed before, after, or during a shot.

Thanks in advance.
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Interesting question, glad you asked as I didn't know.

He would certainly lose a point for the foul and his turn at the table. The question is "Does the ball stay down and the point for making it count?" According to the WPA rules it depends on whether the shot is complete, and that happens when all balls stop moving and spinning. If the balls were not moving or spinning when the foul is committed, the shot is complete, the ball would stay down and the point would count. The rules say:

8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue
stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to
be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot. (my emphasis)
 
Foul?

I don't know who is watching all the balls on the table to see if they stopped moving or stopped spinning when the foul occurs. Can anyone else please help out here?
 
A previously unpublished but useful rule of the past

Oldwestside said:
I don't know who is watching all the balls on the table to see if they stopped moving or stopped spinning when the foul occurs. Can anyone else please help out here?
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Excellent question! And how easily would several people agree as to the timing of several different objects located in several different locations? It illustrates the fact that our rules can still be improved for the best rules are those that are easily enforced. As you have already pointed out, the problem with this particular rule is how to decide what happened first or last after the fact for there might have been several balls in motion with each coming to rest at slightly different points in time.

To a great extent, this was solved with a previously unpublished but useful rule of the past. One that was used by top players in New York City years ago; I'll guess from around 1930 to 1960. I'm not recalling this very well at the moment but, if I had to guess, my best guess is that it was Three-Fingered Gus, an old-time hustler, that had explained it to me in the late 50s at the famed 711 Room. I'd asked him questions from time to time and found that he'd known plenty.

Rather than going by which of several balls would stop last, they would go by when the shooter had moved either of his feet after the stroke. It was found to be a slightly easier rule to enforce for it was somewhat easier for all to notice when the shooter started to move his feet than several different objects moving and or spinning in several different locations.

That rule had proved itself quite useful in a few different situations. One that had come up a few times had to do with whether a ball that seemed to have come to a full stop at the lip of a pocket must have still been moving for it then, several seconds later, suddenly dropped in the pocket. Did that object-ball count or did that cueball scratch because it might have still been moving ever so slightly even after the shooter was by his chair? Should it be replaced because to the naked eye it almost certainly must have stopped earlier?

There was some agreement back then that various rule problems were somewhat less of a problem as a result of that particular unpublished rule. For all I know, it was used in other parts of the country as well. I'd think that old rule should be seriously reviewed by those in charge these many years later.

For whatever it was worth,

Eddie Robin
 
I don't remember seeing a rule in print about this, other than in tournament play it was indeed a foul and the shooter lost his turn at the table. I think that in tournament play, he would also lose a point, but I'm not sure. IIRC, in the room where I learned to play the rule was that the shooter could continue to shoot but not at that ball. If it was the fifteenth ball, he had to shoot at the rack, most likely playing safe. I don't remember playing fouls on all balls in casual play. Note that this was long before the WPA came into existence.
 
At no point in any game of pool would you score a ball for yourself on the same stroke that a foul occurred. The foul takes away the legality of the stroke and it makes no difference when the foul occurs.

You could argue that there is no foul to begin with if you're not playing with a referee and playing CB fouls only but if he admits to a foul then he loses his turn, loses a point, and the ball respots.
 
Rule

The stroke was over and the guy I was playing was backing away from the table bed. Also, what about when you have to set your bridge hand down while surrounded by several balls and you touch a ball, no stroke there but it's still a foul. I shoot with a lot of old timers and we play fouls on all balls to avoid any questions, no mulligans allowed with my group.

The question remains, if the object ball is made and the player then fouls, I know he loses a point off his total score and control of the table, but does the made ball count or is it spotted up?

Thanks for all the great help here.
 
In the case you're describing the ball should be spotted. I can't see counting a ball made during or after a foul.
 
In a casual game, if someone subtly disturbs balls, we just try to replace them as close to their original position as possible. No foul, no loss of turn. Doesn't matter if the player does it before, during, or after the stroke. The exception is if the moved ball affected the outcome of the shot. Then it's a foul and any sunk balls get spotted. Again, doesn't matter if it's before, during, or after the shot.

What chris said is dead one. Once someone decides a foul has happened, all sunk balls get spotted. It doesn't matter if he was down over the shot or just walking away. The game goes by innings. It's not your inning until you approach the table and get down. If he fouls during his inning, the last ball he shot is no good.
 
CreeDo said:
What chris said is dead one. Once someone decides a foul has happened, all sunk balls get spotted. It doesn't matter if he was down over the shot or just walking away. The game goes by innings. It's not your inning until you approach the table and get down. If he fouls during his inning, the last ball he shot is no good.
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This isn't true. Suppose he made a shot, walked to the next shot, got down and tipped the cue ball while taking warm up strokes. The last ball he made would not be spotted. His inning ends and he loses a point for the foul.

The rule I quoted earlier answers the OP's question. If the balls have stopped moving and spinning before he fouls, the shot is a legal shot. Sometimes you might not be sure, but most of the time you will know whether the foul occurred during the shot (ball spotted) or after (ball stays down and point counts).
 
All balls made on an illegal stroke respot. Your scenario has the foul occurring on a separate stroke from when the ball was made. Not the same thing.
 
Chris_Lynch said:
All balls made on an illegal stroke respot. Your scenario has the foul occurring on a separate stroke from when the ball was made. Not the same thing.
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That was my point. It's a different shot but the same inning. Creedo had said:
CreeDo said:
If he fouls during his inning, the last ball he shot is no good.
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which is not true. I guess he said inning when he meant to say shot.
 
Last edited:
I normally play all ball fouls when I play 14.1.

Many players stay down on their shot until the balls stop moving. If you have put your hand, cue, or bridge down for a shot, completed the shot and commit a touch foul as you are moving your hand, cue or bridge while getting up from the completed shot, you should not be credited with a made ball.

Once you have gotten out of your stance and are standing up, and you then commit a touch foul, you are on to the next shot, and the previously made ball counts.

What about when you shoot a second shot from almost where you are, without getting out of your stance and you commit a foul? No standing up, no moving feet, just shifting your bridge hand. This becomes harder to separate the two shots. In this case I would say the first shot is not complete until you are performing warmup strokes on the second shot. If the foul is committed as you shift to the new shot, before you begin stroking, the first ball gets spotted and you lose a point. Once you begin warm up strokes, it is a new shot

One way to make sure you don't lose your first ball is to get up from your stance before you shoot the second shot.
 
Oldwestside said:
The stroke was over and the guy I was playing was backing away from the table bed. Also, what about when you have to set your bridge hand down while surrounded by several balls and you touch a ball, no stroke there but it's still a foul. I shoot with a lot of old timers and we play fouls on all balls to avoid any questions, no mulligans allowed with my group.

The question remains, if the object ball is made and the player then fouls, I know he loses a point off his total score and control of the table, but does the made ball count or is it spotted up?

Thanks for all the great help here.
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OK - the stroke was over.

The question is - was the shot over? - specifically, had
all balls stopped moving?

If all balls were at rest - his call was correct.

Dale
 
Rich, you're right, I worded that badly. On top of that I was thinking wrong.

Originally I wanted to say that if you foul even after the stroke is over, as you're standing up to lift the cue, then the ball you sunk doesn't count. However I had it stuck in my head that someone is standing while the CB is still moving. If someone stays down on the shot, all balls have stopped moving, and then they stand up and accidentally nick a ball... the last sunk ball stays down, logically. The shot was over before the foul occurred.

In fact, now I'm leaning towards even if the CB is still moving, as long as the outcome of the games isn't affected (i.e. the CB moves where the OB used to be), the ball stays down.

But I tend to be a softie about these things, I prolly should leave it to the experts.
 
cueballtwo said:
I normally play all ball fouls when I play 14.1.

Many players stay down on their shot until the balls stop moving. If you have put your hand, cue, or bridge down for a shot, completed the shot and commit a touch foul as you are moving your hand, cue or bridge while getting up from the completed shot, you should not be credited with a made ball.

Once you have gotten out of your stance and are standing up, and you then commit a touch foul, you are on to the next shot, and the previously made ball counts.
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I'm with you on this one. We also play all ball fouls. If you shoot a ball and foul it comes up. If you're moving on to your next ball and foul it's loss of turn and loss of point. Anyone playing all ball fouls that would argue against that is just being a nit.

The problem with pool isn't so much the rules not being crystal clear as much as it's certain players, which there are plenty of, that will nit pick every little thing or try to interpret the rules in their favor.

Let's face it, it would be silly for a guy to make a ball, move on to his next shot, foul, and pull the previously made ball up.

How about this one, the guy shoots a ball in, all balls have stopped moving, he stands up, drops the chalk on the table and it hits a ball. Should he pull the ball up? I say no, but it's loss of turn and no score for that ball.

I can only imagine some of the arguments that would happen under such situations.
MULLY
 
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