An unusual thing just happened at the 14.1 pred

[fan-tum]

You guys need to learn to read the rules

World standardized rules for 14.1

3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player’s scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the op-posing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

In ONE POCKET...you'd owe a ball! In 9 ball, you'd get bih, in 8 ball bih...you'd get the cue ball ball in hand.

IN 14.1 YOU GET A FOUL....ONE OF 3 FOULS....BUT YOU GET A FOUL BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS B...I...H ANYWHERE ON THE TABLE, THERE IS NO 3 FOUL LOSS OF GAME RULE...YOU LOOSE A POINT AND YOU'RE ON A FOUL.

DON'T CROSS BREED THE RULES BETWEEN GENERAL RULES....AND 14.1 RULES:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:



Glen

Hey Cobra, do you think we should make this a new thread, because I think the rules may contain conflicting rules? What do you think of my post in reply to your's...in regards to general rule 3.39? A new thread might get increased participation, and I'd really like to get this one thing definitely ironed out.

 

[realkingcobra]

World standardized rules for 14.1

6.10 CUE BALL AFTER JUMPING OFF TABLE/SCRATCH
Incoming player has cue ball in hand behind the head string, unless the provision of Rule of Play 6.7.2, 6.7.5 or 6.12 (below) apply to the offender’s foul and dictate alternate choices or procedures.

Lets see here,


6.7 RULES OF PLAY
2. On all shots, a player must cause the cue ball to contact an object ball and then (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a cushion. Failure to do so is a foul.
hmmm....don't say I can't foul the cue ball in the corner pocket....does it?


6.7 RULES OF PLAY
5. A player may not catch, touch or in any way interfere with a ball as it travels toward a pocket or the rack area on a shot (to include catching a ball as it enters a pocket by having a hand in the ball as it enters a pocket by having a hand in the pocket). Doing so is a special “deliberate foul” and is penalized one point for the foul and an additional 15 point penalty, for a total of 16 points. The incoming player then has choice of (1) accepting the table in position with the cue ball in hand behind the head string, or

(2) having all 15 balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to shoot under the requirements of the opening break.

hmmmm....I didn't do any of that, so it don't apply, I just froze the cue ball in the corner pocket.

6.12 RULES OF PLAY
SUCCESSIVE FOUL PENALTIES
When a player commits a foul, penalization is one point (or more as appropriate) and a notation is made and posted by the scorer that the player is “on a foul.” The player remains “on a foul” until the next shot
attempt, at which time the foul may be removed by successfully pocketing a called ball, or completing a legal safety.

If failing to meet these requirements on the next turn at the table, the player is penalized one
point. The notation is changed to “on two fouls.” If he fails to meet the requirements of successfully pocketing a called ball or completing a legal safety on the third consecutive turn at the table, penalization
is one point and an additional penalty of 15 points is assessed (a total of 18 points for three consecutive fouls equals -18 points).

The commission of a third successive foul automatically clears the offender’s
record of fouls. “The incoming player has the choice of 1). accepting the balls in position, or 2). having all 15 balls re-racked and requiring the offending player to shoot under the requirements of the opening
break. Rules for the opening break apply.” It should be emphasized that successive fouls must be committed in successive turns (or playing attempts), not merely in successive innings. For example, if a
player ends inning six with a foul, steps to the table for inning seven and fouls (he is “on two fouls”), and then starts inning eight with a legally pocketed ball before scratching on his second shot attempt of the
inning, he has not committed three successive fouls, even though there were fouls in three successive innings. As soon as he legally pocketed the ball to start inning eight, he cleared the two fouls. He is, of course, “on one foul” when he plays the first stroke attempt of inning nine.
Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Hey Cobra, do you think we should make this a new thread, because I think the rules may contain conflicting rules? What do you think of my post in reply to your's...in regards to general rule 3.39? A new thread might get increased participation, and I'd really like to get this one thing definitely ironed out.

Consider it ironed out

 

[Island Drive]

I think this rule addresses and prevents placing the cb in the jaws behind the head string and touching the tip to it for a foul: rule 3.39 on general rules for all games (World Standardized Rules). Rule 3.39 states in part that if a player who having b.i.h., must shoot the ball out of the "kitchen", contacting an o.b. or rail. Failing this the opponent may request the player to replay the shot with no penalty.

I'm looking at the rule book also, rule 3.39 "when a player has the cue ball in hand behind the HEAD string (in the kitchen), he must drive the cue ball to a point ACROSS THE HEAD STRING before it contacts either a cushion, an object ball, or return to the kitchen". These rules were made and created by the greatest players of the 20th century, so if someone nowadays has gone and changed them, so be it, doesn't make it right. I remember awhile back the World body was trying to change the rules in 10 ball rotation and say you can pocket a ball and call safe, that didn't fly very well. If a player wants to bump the cue ball behind a pocket facing, its unsportsmanlike conduct, pure and simple. The game has certain rules for good reason to keep the integrity of the game/sport. I would be like a tennis player serving out of the box just because he/she wanted to, but why would a person do that or even consider it if its not right, I don't get your point Cobra for wanting to bring this up?

 

[realkingcobra]

I'm looking at the rule book also, rule 3.39 "when a player has the cue ball in hand behind the HEAD string (in the kitchen), he must drive the cue ball to a point ACROSS THE HEAD STRING before it contacts either a cushion, an object ball, or return to the kitchen". These rules were made and created by the greatest players of the 20th century, so if someone nowadays has gone and changed them, so be it, doesn't make it right. I remember awhile back the World body was trying to change the rules in 10 ball rotation and say you can pocket a ball and call safe, that didn't fly very well. If a player wants to bump the cue ball behind a pocket facing, its unsportsmanlike conduct, pure and simple. The game has certain rules for good reason to keep the integrity of the game/sport. I would be like a tennis player serving out of the box just because he/she wanted to, but why would a person do that or even consider it if its not right, I don't get your point Cobra for wanting to bring this up?

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.

The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.


I agree with the above mention rules, but that still has nothing to do with taking a foul and burying the cue ball in a corner pocket, it's a foul plain and simple and part of the strategy of playing 14.1 if a player chooses so,


not unlike a player playing one pocket, the opponent has a ball deep in the jaws of his corner pocket...and the shooting player jumps the cue ball OFF the table while pocketing that OPPONENTS ball, then spotting THAT ball plus one back up...to keep the opponent from WINNING Right????

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

I'm looking at the rule book also, rule 3.39 "when a player has the cue ball in hand behind the HEAD string (in the kitchen), he must drive the cue ball to a point ACROSS THE HEAD STRING before it contacts either a cushion, an object ball, or return to the kitchen". These rules were made and created by the greatest players of the 20th century, so if someone nowadays has gone and changed them, so be it, doesn't make it right. I remember awhile back the World body was trying to change the rules in 10 ball rotation and say you can pocket a ball and call safe, that didn't fly very well. If a player wants to bump the cue ball behind a pocket facing, its unsportsmanlike conduct, pure and simple. The game has certain rules for good reason to keep the integrity of the game/sport. I would be like a tennis player serving out of the box just because he/she wanted to, but why would a person do that or even consider it if its not right, I don't get your point Cobra for wanting to bring this up?

You can call a safety in 14.1 while pocketing a ball, but the pocketed ball re-spots after you shoot, it's a shot with a reason...what's wrong with it? It's played in 14.1 quite often as sometimes you just don't want that 15th ball loose on the table if you don't have a good break shot with it, you don't want you opponent to have a chance of playing it either...so you call a safety, pocket the ball, then rack all 15 and make you're opponent break from where the cue ball sits...smart move most times

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

I don't get your point Cobra for wanting to bring this up?

Because no where in the rules of 14.1 does it say you can't take a foul with the cue ball in the kitchen, and no where does it say you can't bury the cue ball, it does however say that if you do....it's a foul, not ball in hand, not unsportsmanlike, or anything else. Fouls in 14.1 are assessed in points, not returning the cue ball to the opposing player with bih because a player decided to take a foul instead of giving the opponent the chance to run out, in the hopes that the incoming player don't foul back the same way, in the same pocket, if so, now the tide is turned...on YOU! So it's more of a sucker safe shot, hoping your opponent will shoot out of the corner pocket and get the cue ball closer to the rack so you can follow up with a much easier safe and get the fouls off your back and leave your opponent sitting on at least one foul...ahead of you

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

I don't know where you got the rule you quoted below, but according to the World Standard Rules of 14.1

Under Section 6 "Fouls"
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

Now go to the 14.1 rules and section 4.9 and the comment for the above section 6.11.
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String For a foul under the second paragraph of 6.11, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string for the incoming player.

This means you can't commit a foul with BIH behind the head string and leave the incoming shooter having to play with cue ball in position. He gets BIH behind the head string.

You are wrong sir and the others are correct.
BTW this doesn't change my opinion that you are one of the greatest table mechanics in the USA

Just read the rest of your post Tom, thank you for the compliment as a mechanic, I always try to do my best

Glen

 

[PoolBum]

Ortmann miscued on a shot, but made it. The sound of the ferrule hitting the cb was clear, and the opponent jumped up, asking for a ruling. the ref said play on, but the commentator DiLiberto said it was a foul. So is Danny right? It's a new one on me.

Pat Flemming just commented about this incident during the Archer-Williams match. Pat said that Ortmann's opponent, Earl Herring, thought that Ortmann was shooting at a different ball than the one he pocketed, which is why he thought it was a foul.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Ah,two diametrically opposing views. We need a tie-breaker.

If the referee can clearly see the side of the stick contact the cue ball, the miscue is a foul. In general, miscues are not so obvious and are accepted as legal shots if no other foul is committed and the miscue is unintentional.

Intentional miscues are a different matter. Distinguishing intentional vs. unintentional is often problematic, but that's why referees get the big bucks.

 

[Bob Jewett]

How is Mika's 101 ball run an oddity?

It was longer than the match length. I think Hohmann had a 152-and out at Comet a couple of years ago when starting from -2.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here is another ruling that even the refs had to look up. Archer was playing Zvi. Archer tried to skim the rack to play a safety. He missed the rack and the q ball went into the pocket. Archer is on one foul. Zvi gets ball in hand in the kitchen. What should he do? What is legal for him to do? There are no open shots. See if you know the answer to what is legal for him to do. I will tell you the ruling later. ...

The wording of the rules may or may not be clear, but the intent of the World Standardized Rules is that when a player has cue ball in hand behind the headstring, he must shoot it over the line. The only legal exception is if there is an object ball close to the line and the player shoots that ball -- the cue ball may never cross the line, but the shot is OK.

Further, at 14.1, if the player fails to shoot the cue ball over the headstring, the incoming player still has ball in hand. I believe that onepocket.org uses the same rule for one pocket.

You are never permitted with ball in hand to place the cue ball in the jaws of a head pocket and tap it for the corner-hook. This play at least gives up ball in hand at all games.

 

[Island Drive]

The wording of the rules may or may not be clear, but the intent of the World Standardized Rules is that when a player has cue ball in hand behind the headstring, he must shoot it over the line. The only legal exception is if there is an object ball close to the line and the player shoots that ball -- the cue ball may never cross the line, but the shot is OK.

Further, at 14.1, if the player fails to shoot the cue ball over the headstring, the incoming player still has ball in hand. I believe that onepocket.org uses the same rule for one pocket.

You are never permitted with ball in hand to place the cue ball in the jaws of a head pocket and tap it for the corner-hook. This play at least gives up ball in hand at all games.

Thx Bob for a clear/to the point response on this matter.

 

[realkingcobra]

The wording of the rules may or may not be clear, but the intent of the World Standardized Rules is that when a player has cue ball in hand behind the headstring, he must shoot it over the line. The only legal exception is if there is an object ball close to the line and the player shoots that ball -- the cue ball may never cross the line, but the shot is OK.

Further, at 14.1, if the player fails to shoot the cue ball over the headstring, the incoming player still has ball in hand. I believe that onepocket.org uses the same rule for one pocket.

You are never permitted with ball in hand to place the cue ball in the jaws of a head pocket and tap it for the corner-hook. This play at least gives up ball in hand at all games.

Bob, in 14.1 fouls are penalized by the loss of points, not ball in hand, and clearly this rule "POINTS" to...see the rules of the "SPECIFIC" game being played.
Show me a ruling that says when playing 14.1 that a player CAN'T take an intentional foul by not shooting the cue ball across the foul line?

"The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game"

And, unless the foul is the third consecutive foul for the shooter, the 15 point penalty plus 3 foul points and having to re-rack the balls and break according to "opening break" rules.....it's assessed as a "-1 point foul"

Glen

PS, General rules of pool, are overruled by games of pool being played that have"specific" rules to the particular game being played!

For EXAMPLE: When playing One Pocket, if a player makes a ball, then scratches the cue ball, 2 balls are spotted for the penalty. Playing 14.1 if a player pockets a ball then scratches, the ball is spotted and only 1 point is taken from the score.

Different rules apply to different games!

 

[realkingcobra]

The wording of the rules may or may not be clear, but the intent of the World Standardized Rules is that when a player has cue ball in hand behind the headstring, he must shoot it over the line. The only legal exception is if there is an object ball close to the line and the player shoots that ball -- the cue ball may never cross the line, but the shot is OK.

Further, at 14.1, if the player fails to shoot the cue ball over the headstring, the incoming player still has ball in hand. I believe that onepocket.org uses the same rule for one pocket.

You are never permitted with ball in hand to place the cue ball in the jaws of a head pocket and tap it for the corner-hook. This play at least gives up ball in hand at all games.

What ruling would you call on a player if the player with intent...shot the cue ball off the table onto the floor during a tournament?

 

[fan-tum]

Bob, in 14.1 fouls are penalized by the loss of points, not ball in hand, and clearly this rule "POINTS" to...see the rules of the "SPECIFIC" game being played.
Show me a ruling that says when playing 14.1 that a player CAN'T take an intentional foul by not shooting the cue ball across the foul line?

"The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game"

And, unless the foul is the third consecutive foul for the shooter, the 15 point penalty plus 3 foul points and having to re-rack the balls and break according to "opening break" rules.....it's assessed as a "-1 point foul"

Glen

PS, General rules of pool, are overruled by games of pool being played that have"specific" rules to the particular game being played!

For EXAMPLE: When playing One Pocket, if a player makes a ball, then scratches the cue ball, 2 balls are spotted for the penalty. Playing 14.1 if a player pockets a ball then scratches, the ball is spotted and only 1 point is taken from the score.

Different rules apply to different games!

From the w.s.rules--Effective January 1, 2006: These general rules apply to all pocket billiard games, UNLESS specifically noted to the contrary in the individual game rules.
Rule 3.39 is not excluded for 14.1 according to the above paragraph. So as per 3.39..if with b.i.h. in the kitchen player fails to drive the cb out of the kitchen, or strike a rail or ob outside of the kitchen, the incoming player has AS ONE OPTION making the previous player to REPLAY the shot with no penalty after restoring conditions to before his shot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

From the w.s.rules--Effective January 1, 2006: ...
Rule 3.39 is not excluded for 14.1 ...

There is no rule 3.39 in the current World Standardized Rules. They were revised as of January 2008 with several important changes. Those changes were discussed at the time.

It is important to read both the rules and the regulations. Both are available on the WPA website: http://www.wpa-pool.com/

The specific rules that apply to the ball in hand situation in 14.1 are 4.9 and 6.11 (which 4.9 refers to).

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, in 14.1 fouls are penalized by the loss of points, not ball in hand, ...

Well, no. If you commit three consecutive fouls, you are rewarded by getting ball in hand and all 15 balls to shoot at. (Of course I'm quibbling.)

How do you feel rule 6.11 is reasonably applied to 14.1? It clearly does apply.

 

[realkingcobra]

Well, no. If you commit three consecutive fouls, you are rewarded by getting ball in hand and all 15 balls to shoot at. (Of course I'm quibbling.)

How do you feel rule 6.11 is reasonably applied to 14.1? It clearly does apply.

Bob, break down this rule. In most all games of pool, following a foul, ANY foul, the incoming player is awarded ball in hand, such as in 9ball, 10ball, 8ball, rotation and the such because these are not games which points are not awarded, or taken away. In one pocket, bank pool and such games, the fouling player is penalized one point...or ball which is then spotted on the foot spot, and if the player don't have any counted balls, then the player owes a ball for the penalty, thus the score in 0ne Pocket can end up as -1 to 8+ the fouling player never made a ball to erase the foul.

But, the specific rules of 14.1 clearly state that if a player fouls, the player will be assessed minus 1 point, and all balls, including the cue ball stay in place and the play is turned over to the incoming player.

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... But, the specific rules of 14.1 clearly state that if a player fouls, the player will be assessed minus 1 point, and all balls, including the cue ball stay in place and the play is turned over to the incoming player. ...

The rules of 14.1 clearly state:

4.9 Standard Fouls
...

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
For a foul under the second paragraph of 6.11, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string for the incoming player.​

One way to think of this is that the cue ball is still in hand because it has not left the kitchen. This rule has not been well defined before. The alternative is to call the cheap corner hook unsportsmanlike conduct and a forfeit (or perhaps just a 15-point foul). The cheap corner hook has never been an accepted part of the game.