Pergatory

Milo

Milo

NPL CHIX, WE DID IT!!!!!
Silver Member
The Galveston tournament brought up a very interesting subject.

What do the shortstops/lower level pros do when a great tourney like Galveston comes along!!!

They cant play in the amateur events. (Galveston booted about 12 players who are considered "pro level")

And yes, they can play in the pro events, but lets be honest, its tough for them to compete against the top guys.

So where do these players go?????

Unfortunately, there is nowhere to go.:(

They are in a gray area, or what I would call purgatory.
Some of these players who are at the end of their careers dont have much of a choice. Either get better, or stop playing. Which in my opinion is a very sad thought.

Would love to hear your thoughts!!! :smile:
 
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Bcapl

Milo said:
The Galveston tournament brought up a very interesting subject.

What do the shortstops/lower level pros do when a great tourney like Galveston comes along!!!

They cant play in the amateur events. (Galveston booted about 12 players who are considered "pro level")

And yes, they can play in the pro events, but lets be honest, its tough for them to compete against the top guys.

So where do these players go?????

Unfornately, there is nowhere to go.:(

They are in a gray area, or what I would call pergatory.
Some of these players who are at the end of their careers dont have much of a choice. Either get better, or stop playing. Which in my opinion is a very sad thought.

Would love to hear your thoughts!!! :smile:
Click to expand...
A similar thing happened when they opened the grand masters to anyone. The pro's get to play in their tournaments and the Grand Masters. Kirkwood and other men of his speed, have to fade the pro's now. Of course the women are in the same boat.
 
Purgatory is a bad place for pool players.

It's hard to shoot when the table keeps catching fire.
 
Must refer you to Dante's Divine Comedy, of which Purgatory is the second of the three sections. As Dante makes clear, it is a far better place than in the inferno of hell.

The shortstop will always face this predicament. Nice post.
 
you are right

Milo,

You are right. There are a bunch of people that might get in the money in a smaller open event but realistically aren't likely to get into the nice money in an event like this. They aren't amateurs, they aren't really competitive pro's. One thing, I think there should be is some sort of time consideration. It is ridiculous to call someone a pro if they haven't won or placed very high in a pro event in five years if they have been playing regularly in my opinion. The once a pro forever a pro is one issue that needs to be addressed.

Unfortunately we don't have enough events for the pro's and amateurs now so I don't see any real possibility of creating a class between the two which is what is needed. Basically there should be a major league and minor league pro circuit with players being able to move between the two depending on some set of criteria.

The true amateurs are right to complain about having to play these intermediate guys and these guys are right to complain about having to play the very best in the world to have any chance at all of a payday. The solution is the same as always, more money and more events. So easy to say, so hard to do.

Hu


Milo said:
The Galveston tournament brought up a very interesting subject.

What do the shortstops/lower level pros do when a great tourney like Galveston comes along!!!

They cant play in the amateur events. (Galveston booted about 12 players who are considered "pro level")

And yes, they can play in the pro events, but lets be honest, its tough for them to compete against the top guys.

So where do these players go?????

Unfornately, there is nowhere to go.:(

They are in a gray area, or what I would call pergatory.
Some of these players who are at the end of their careers dont have much of a choice. Either get better, or stop playing. Which in my opinion is a very sad thought.

Would love to hear your thoughts!!! :smile:
Click to expand...
 
Milo said:
And yes, they can play in the pro events, but lets be honest, its tough for them to compete against the top guys.

So where do these players go?????

Unfornately, there is nowhere to go.:(


Would love to hear your thoughts!!! :smile:
Click to expand...


Don't feel sorry for these guys. These guys have spent years winning local events and regional events as huge favorites. They have already won a great deal of money and most likely considerably more than most in this amateur field.

It is not easy anywhere in the pool world as there are so many different levels. Every level has its own version of 'purgatory' as you put it.

These players (grand masters, regional pros, older non-active pros) have already excelled and will continue to dominate in 80% or more of the events they attend, so I don't feel sorry for them at all if they cant play in an event or two.
 
Milo said:
The Galveston tournament brought up a very interesting subject.

What do the shortstops/lower level pros do when a great tourney like Galveston comes along!!!

They cant play in the amateur events. (Galveston booted about 12 players who are considered "pro level")

And yes, they can play in the pro events, but lets be honest, its tough for them to compete against the top guys.

So where do these players go?????

Unfornately, there is nowhere to go.:(

They are in a gray area, or what I would call pergatory.
Some of these players who are at the end of their careers dont have much of a choice. Either get better, or stop playing. Which in my opinion is a very sad thought.

Would love to hear your thoughts!!! :smile:
Click to expand...


Excellent post thank you for the great discussion.

hugs
 
ShootingArts said:
Milo,

You are right. There are a bunch of people that might get in the money in a smaller open event but realistically aren't likely to get into the nice money in an event like this. They aren't amateurs, they aren't really competitive pro's. One thing, I think there should be is some sort of time consideration. It is ridiculous to call someone a pro if they haven't won or placed very high in a pro event in five years if they have been playing regularly in my opinion. The once a pro forever a pro is one issue that needs to be addressed.

Unfortunately we don't have enough events for the pro's and amateurs now so I don't see any real possibility of creating a class between the two which is what is needed. Basically there should be a major league and minor league pro circuit with players being able to move between the two depending on some set of criteria.

The true amateurs are right to complain about having to play these intermediate guys and these guys are right to complain about having to play the very best in the world to have any chance at all of a payday. The solution is the same as always, more money and more events. So easy to say, so hard to do.

Hu
Click to expand...

Great Post Hu, as always.:smile:

I agree, the problem is hard to fix. And yes, the true amateurs have a right to say these players dont belong in their events.
 
Perk said:
Don't feel sorry for these guys. These guys have spent years winning local events and regional events as huge favorites. They have already won a great deal of money and most likely considerably more than most in this amateur field.

It is not easy anywhere in the pool world as there are so many different levels. Every level has its own version of 'purgatory' as you put it.

These players (grand masters, regional pros, older non-active pros) have already excelled and will continue to dominate in 80% or more of the events they attend, so I don't feel sorry for them at all if they cant play in an event or two.
Click to expand...

You have some very valid points.:smile:

I dont feel sorry for these players, but I do feel, honestly, they really have nowhere to go in regards to big events.
They have won their share of local/regional events, but as far as the bigger events and the bigger picture, they really are in a big gray area.

Note: Duh, I spelled "pergatory" wrong, sorry all.:o
 
I would love to be able to win in 80% of the tournaments I enter. If that is bad, I want to be bad.

And, I still have an opportunity to compete with the pros on an EVEN level? when usually I have to ask for a spot?

I surely do not feel sorry for players that fit into this category. They still have an invite to play in the big sand box. Testing their skills against the big guys under tournament conditions (all things being equal) rather than in a match with someone else's money under less than desirable conditions.

You have to test your skill under pressure (gambling or tournament) conditions. If you pass on the 'invite' what do you do? keep preying on the sheep?
 
Any updates on these players?I read in another thread that the promoters
would kick in 2K for them to have there own tourney.
 
I don't think this makes a whole lot of sense. I can understand how your lower level pros may be in a pickle, especially considering there are no other alternatives to make money as a professional pool player, except exhibitions but it doesn't seem as though too many except trick shot artist engage in these.

Shortstops on the other hand are not professionals, they are very good and can compete with the top guys on their day but they are still amateurs. There is no reason that they should be barred from amateur competition.

This whole idea of keeping strong competition from playing in amateur events strikes me as a bit silly. Is it really necessary for every tournament to be handicapped or skill levels seperated? The mentality reminds me of elementary school where "everyone is a winner". Why punish the people who put the time and effort into improving their game?

Honestly, players should only be barred from amateur tournaments if they are currently ranked in top 20 or 30 in a national/continental/world tour, or if they have finished within the top 10 or 20 in a major tournament such as the US Open or World Championships.
 
At least in New York City, I think much of the problem stems from the actual language used to define skill level.

In New York, players are typically rated as Pro, Open, A, B, C and D. This creates a very interesting scenario since Open players are not considered professionals and yet they fall outside the "letter spectrum". The value of A, the way it's typically defined in society is huge here. When is "A" not the best? Only in pool is "A" trumped by "O" but is it?

I think, for the most part, people consider "A" to be top amateur rank when in fact, the Open class is. Because the Open class is seperated from the letter spectrum, they default to professional events. They're amateurs who are not allowed to compete with lower-ranked amateurs.

If the amateur spectrum were to encompass the Open class, or in other words, Old Open=A, Old A=B, etc., I think most amateur players and organizations would be more inclusive. Until that day passes, I think there will forever be pool purgatory, especially in New York City.
 
Separation of player ability promotes participation in all tournaments plain and simple. It is not a matter of making everone a winner, it is about giving everyone a "chance" to win. Pool has a limited base of players that compete in tournament play. Most of these players are not remotely capable of even playing with a pro level player or a short stop for that matter. This establishes the need to give players a chance, ie staggered entry fees, second day B/C/D tournaments for players knocked out of the regular event and amateur events. Players will NOT continue to show up and donate. VF and vegas are examples of how amateur events are good for pool. Huge amateur fields, Pro events and pro-am for the middle of the road guys.

I do not feel sorry for shortstops that snap off every weekly tournament and regional events. There is a purgatory for everyone. A players get banned as well from all kinds of tournaments.

Other sports do not have this issue because true pro athletes are easier to define because they do not have the need or desire to compete and win lower level prizes where lesser players play. In pool this is all that happens excluding the top pros. Every shortstop that wins all kinds of tournaments whines because "I can't play in the amature". Most of these people do not have jobs and play pool seven days a week. Aside from a few exceptions most players listed as open in the northeast do not have a real full time job.
 
That might be 95% true !

But just look at lil john macias...just took 4th in the 1 pocket over there beating guys that can normally give him at least 10-7...in a tournement the lesser player still has a sluggers chance...that was a hell of a field in the 1 pocket too...havn't seen that many great 1 pocket players in the same bracket in quite some time.
 
The problem is open players and top amateurs are used to going to weekly tourneys and smaller regional tourneys with an expectation of cashing high in every event they go to. Cashing for these types of events is like 75% or more. If they don't feel like they are gonna have an easy walk they don't want to go. Notice this feeling is basically the same for the lower players at the different levels, however the lower the level player the more willing they are to play a slightly stronger tourney field but still don't want to jump to high and get rolled over.

For the average player they go to the same tourneys with hopes of finishing well with the occasional high finish in there.

The only difference with these top amateurs is most have no desire to 'continuously' play in tourneys where their hopes are to have a high finish min-cashing with the occasional top 3 because of their previous successes.
 
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I've spent my whole pool playing life, living in Purgatory. Not because I wanted to, it was because, I had to.

There just wasn't enough incentive, (money) out there to justify quitting a good job and beating my brains out trying to beat the best players in the world. I wish there was.

The game needs to offer, more than just a hand-full of players, the opportunity to make a good living, and it doesn't. That's why there are so many so-called shortstops. This is also the reason so many pro players drop out of the competitive world once there chances of winning an event are greatly diminished. The game is no longer affordable.

I'm playing in the U. S. Open for the first time in my life at the age of fifty-nine. It was foolish of me to wait this long to play, I know that. I should have gone to many of them. In my defense, I would have had to taken a week off from work and invested a good amount of money to go. I couldn't afford such a high risk for so little reward. Unless I finished in the top sixteen players. I was probably going to lose money. Plain and simple.

The beauty other games offer and the reason people pursue there dreams is, if they make it, they can make a good living doing something they love. I'm not talking about the Tiger Woods or the Micheal Jordan's of the world. I'm talking about the back-up catchers and the players barely making the cut on the P.G.A. Tour. These are the people that make it possible for the Tiger Woods and Micheal Jordan's to show off there talents, without them there's no game.

All I can say is the game needs a large infusion of players and money. Without the both of them, it will keep a lot of the shortstops on the bench, forever.
 
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LA toolman said:
Does anybody know what 12 players bot booted?

Which of those 12 entered the pro events?
Click to expand...

I know three of them, and they all entered the pro events. All three did not money I believe.

Glenn Atwell
Stan Tourangeau
Bobby Pickle
 
LA toolman said:
Any updates on these players?I read in another thread that the promoters
would kick in 2K for them to have there own tourney.
Click to expand...

Well, I heard they kept postponing this 2K added tourney for them, each day it was moved to "tomorrow." Then I heard there was an entry fee for the tourney. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
 
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