Sighting ... which method do you think is best?

[dr_dave]

youtube down for maintenance will post later.

Thanks. I look forward to seeing that.

You're welcome, don't have much time either but can't resist sometimes. You do a pretty sporty job of posting yourself.

Resistance is futile for me also, when it comes to trying to stay away from AZB. I guess it's better than porn ... that's what my wife says, anyway.

Talked with Nick and if he adds someone I'm in the running, not sure if I want another hat to wear right now anyways.

I'll prod Nick a little the next time I talk to him. I'm sure many people would appreciate and benefit from the extra hat on your head.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Joe T]

Thanks. I look forward to seeing that.

Regards,
Dave

skip my ramblings for the first minute or so and you can see how I have the tip over to the right side of cb but you can't see how I would be focusing on my left eye to get the aiming line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-prVQMEHgg

 

[Dead Crab]

I haven't been playing long, about 2.5 years. I know everything I need to know about aiming, but sighting is a totally different animal. I have varying degrees of cross dominance, but basically I shoot left with a right dominant eye. I have found two methods that work for me:

1. Close my dominant right eye and "rifle" sight with the left. Works well, but is fatiguing, and you lose depth perception, which is sometimes helpful to have.

2. Line up like Ralf Souquet, with my head cocked so that my dominant right eye sights down the cue, OB is often totally out of the field of vision of the left eye, so it can't screw me up.

#2 is really more natural, and I will be working with it more in the future.

The topic of sighting is covered rather thoroughly in "Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers". I guess I'm the only one who read it. It has a lot of good info, some of which gets buried in communication noise.

 

[dr_dave]

skip my ramblings for the first minute or so and you can see how I have the tip over to the right side of cb but you can't see how I would be focusing on my left eye to get the aiming line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-prVQMEHgg

Sorry, but now I'm confused again. You start with the cue aligned with the right (inside) edge of the CB, aimed at or very close to the outside edge of the OB, right? Is your left (outside) eye positioned over the cue in this position, or is the left eye positioned over the required aiming line through the center of the CB? When you return the cue to center-ball, are you doing a parallel shift or are you doing a large-arcing "pivot?" How do your eyes shift (if they do) when you bring the cue to center-ball (i.e., where is your left eye before and after the shift)?

Sorry for all of the questions, but it still unclear to me what you are doing in the video.

Regards and thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The topic of sighting is covered rather thoroughly in "Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers". I guess I'm the only one who read it. It has a lot of good info, some of which gets buried in communication noise.

Thanks for the reminder about the book. I haven't seen it yet, but it's still on my list of things to get and read; although, I'm not particularly looking forward to the "communication noise." I expect that on AZB, but not in a book or video I purchase.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Tennesseejoe]

No poll option available for me. I sight with one (my dominant) eye only and close my other eye. My eye is above the line of cue ball/object ball contact points.

 

[tjlmbklr]

I didn't vote because I am constantly trying new ways to aim. This is why I am all over the boards with my game. I need to find one way to do things and master it!

 

[dr_dave]

No poll option available for me. I sight with one (my dominant) eye only and close my other eye. My eye is above the line of cue ball/object ball contact points.

Sounds like option 1 to me. With one eye closed, your "vision center" is at the one open eye.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I didn't vote because I am constantly trying new ways to aim. This is why I am all over the boards with my game. I need to find one way to do things and master it!

OK. Try all of the sighting options listed, and let us know which seems most natural and/or effective for you. I think the best evaluation can come from people who aren't already attached to a system.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Joe T]

Sorry, but now I'm confused again. You start with the cue aligned with the right (inside) edge of the CB, aimed at or very close to the outside edge of the OB, right? Is your left (outside) eye positioned over the cue in this position, or is the left eye positioned over the required aiming line through the center of the CB? When you return the cue to center-ball, are you doing a parallel shift or are you doing a large-arcing "pivot?" How do your eyes shift (if they do) when you bring the cue to center-ball (i.e., where is your left eye before and after the shift)?

Sorry for all of the questions, but it still unclear to me what you are doing in the video.

Regards and thanks,
Dave

Okay I'm back, mother nature graciously (rained) reserved a private golf course for me.
Stick and tip angled over to left side of cb, left eye pretty much over the cue to get feel for and connected with the contact points, when I have that its like an arc (pivot style) back over to center cb where the cue becomes centered under my chin between both eyes.

 

[unknownpro]

You've got to be kidding. There is no difference between sighting and aiming.
...

What he said. You can't aim without having two points and sighting down them. If you aren't doing that you aren't aiming.

 

[whitewolf]

Ghost-ball is an aiming method, not a sighting method.

Agreed. I think KISS should be applied both to aiming and sighting.

It should be there now. When I first hit the submit button, one of the choices was too long, so I had to make a change and resubmit the poll. Do you see it now?

Thanks
Dave

Well, if you want to get technical, here goes: after I see the ghost ball, then I use both the outer edges of the cue ball to form an imaginary tunnel down to the outer edges of the ghost ball. Is this not sighting? I use the shaft to guide my tunnel and make sure that I am hitting the spot on the cueball that I have preconceived on the preshot routine. So, technically, you would be saying that I am sighting down the shaft? Maybe so, but I am seeing (is this not sighing?) the tunnel also. This I got from Fast Larry.

Now for extreme cut shots I use the inside edge of the cueball as a guide, but I still using the outer edgeS of the cueball. Sometimes if you concentrate only on one thing, like the inner edges ONLY, you cannot see the forest for the trees to check your work. My mind double checks everything on cutshots - I practice these EVERY practice session for about 20 minutes with center ball, inside and outside english.

Do you practice extreme cut shots (let's say 85%) every day Dave? If you did I think you would discover the best method and quit theorizing so much. Please pardon me for playing devil's advocate, but do you ever come up with be BEST method? I think it is great to discuss methods, but you of all people should come up with the best scientific method. You need to take a stand someday and not just do polls (I could be wrong because I usually can only stand to glance at your stuff). Why don't you team up with some medical doctors to get the correct answers? - Just a suggestion. Many times I have mentioned long distant focusing, but it seems to go over everyone's head.

 

[dr_dave]

... after I see the ghost ball ...

That defines the "aim."

then I use both the outer edges of the cue ball to form an imaginary tunnel down to the outer edges of the ghost ball. Is this not sighting?

Yes. Here, you are sighting to your aiming target (the "ghost ball"). Not everybody is as good as you seem to be at "seeing the ghost ball." I think my aiming/sighting method is very similar to yours; although, I also sometimes visualize the contact point on the OB. To me, the more visual info I have the better (sometimes).

Now for extreme cut shots I use the inside edge of the cueball as a guide, but I still using the outer edgeS of the cueball. Sometimes if you concentrate only on one thing, like the inner edges ONLY, you cannot see the forest for the trees to check your work. My mind double checks everything on cutshots

Thank you for your insights.

I practice these EVERY practice session for about 20 minutes with center ball, inside and outside english.

I think if everybody were as disciplined as you sound, we would all improve.

Do you practice extreme cut shots (let's say 85%) every day Dave?

No. I don't even play pool every day, much less practice every day, much less dedicate any of the little time I have to extreme thin cuts. I'm sure if I did, I would be much better at them.

If you did I think you would discover the best method and quit theorizing so much.

I don't think there is a "best method" that would apply equally well to all people. Visualization and perception are much too complicated to describe with a simple one-size-fits-all theory. That's why I am asking what different people do and what they think. I think the complexities and subtleties of aiming and sighting are party what makes this game so challenging, individualistic, fun, and frustrating at times. That's why I find it interesting to hear and read what people think about these topics. I'm not trying to find some grand "Holy Grail" theory.

Please pardon me for playing devil's advocate, but do you ever come up with be BEST method?

Sometimes, yes. For example: the best tip height for accurate speed control, the best amount of of spin and English to maximize spin-induced throw, the best tip height for a long power draw shot, the best bridge length to use to make BHE the most effective, the best peace-sign angles to use to visualize the CB direction with different types of shots, the best tip height to achieve immediate CB roll, etc.! But I don't think it's so easy to come up with a "best" aiming/sighting system for all people.

You need to take a stand someday and not just do polls

The purpose of the poll is to find out what different people think. I don't intend to "take a stand" concerning aiming and sighting; although, my opinions on these topics can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#DAM
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#sighting​

I usually can only stand to glance at your stuff

I'm sorry I inflict so much pain. You better not visit the links above. I don't want to be responsible for the medical condition it might create for you. :frown:

Why don't you team up with some medical doctors to get the correct answers?

I doubt there are very many medical doctors out there that know or can figure out the best way to aim and sight pool shots, but I could be wrong.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Okay I'm back, mother nature graciously (rained) reserved a private golf course for me.
Stick and tip angled over to left side of cb, left eye pretty much over the cue to get feel for and connected with the contact points, when I have that its like an arc (pivot style) back over to center cb where the cue becomes centered under my chin between both eyes.

Joe,

Thank you for clarifying; although, did you mean the "right" side of the CB? For a cut to the right, the CB inside edge is the right side, and the outside eye is the left eye. Right? Earlier, I think you wrote that you align the outside eye with the inside edge of the CB. Right?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Joe T]

Joe,

Thank you for clarifying; although, did you mean the "right" side of the CB? For a cut to the right, the CB inside edge is the right side, and the outside eye is the left eye. Right? Earlier, I think you wrote that you align the outside eye with the inside edge of the CB. Right?

Thanks,
Dave

You got it right

 

[Patrick Johnson]

duckie:
You've got to be kidding. There is no difference between sighting and aiming.

unknownpro
What he said. You can't aim without having two points and sighting down them. If you aren't doing that you aren't aiming.

There are two parts to aiming/sighting. One part is figuring out how you want to align the CB/OB to make the shot (which two points to align) - the various aiming systems help with this, or you might do it by feel. The second is actually lining your stick/CB/OB up accurately on the line you've chosen.

For example, say you use the ghost ball aiming method. You have to (1) visualize the ghost ball in the correct position and (2) line up correctly to hit it accurately. These two things aren't so separate that you finish one before doing the other - you might fine tune your aim while sighting or start sighting while still figuring out the aim. But you can get one part entirely right and still miss the shot by screwing the other part up.

It's just useful semantics to call one of these things aiming and the other one sighting, so we know exactly what we're talking about in threads like this one.

pj
chgo

 

[duckie]

The second is actually lining your stick/CB/OB up accurately on the line you've chosen.

Interesting you used "lining" and not sighting/aiming. To me this is getting in alignment not sighting/aiming. Oh, you forget about your head being in alignment also.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

pooltchr:
Sighting down the cue is an absolute necessity.

Dr. Dave:
I agree. Personally, I don't like placing my "vision center" anywhere but over the cue.

The things you want to align for aiming (CB/OB contact points, CB/OB fractions, etc.) are rarely on the same line as your stick - they're separate lines. So when you center your vision directly over one line, the other line is necessarily off to the side a little and therefore harder to line up precisely - i.e., if you center your vision over your stick it's more difficult to be sure you're lining the contact points up precisely and if you center your vision over the contact points line it's more difficult to be sure you're lining your stick up precisely. It's a tradeoff.

So I don't think it's a given that one way is always better than the other. I'm not even sure it's necessary for a player to do it the same way every time - maybe some shots lend themselves better to one and some to the other. For instance, thin cuts and shots with lots of sidespin might lend themselves more to sighting along the contact points line, while thicker shots with less spin might be best sighted along the stick.

What's best might also change with the player - some might see the alignment better by favoring the stick while others might favor the contact points line, like how different players have different centers of vision because of eye dominance.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

PJ,

Great post ... as usual.

The things you want to align for aiming (CB/OB contact points, CB/OB fractions, etc.) are rarely on the same line as your stick - they're separate lines. So when you center your vision directly over one line, the other line is necessarily off to the side a little and therefore harder to line up precisely - i.e., if you center your vision over your stick it's more difficult to be sure you're lining the contact points up precisely and if you center your vision over the contact points line it's more difficult to be sure you're lining your stick up precisely. It's a tradeoff.

Good point. Centering you vision over the cue for a center-ball hit makes sense for ghost-ball-center and spot aiming, but it isn't the obvious best choice for other aiming methods.

So I don't think it's a given that one way is always better than the other. I'm not even sure it's necessary for a player to do it the same way every time - maybe some shots lend themselves better to one and some to the other. For instance, thin cuts and shots with lots of sidespin might lend themselves more to sighting along the contact points line, while thicker shots with less spin might be best sighted along the stick.

Agreed. as long as you are consistent for each type of shot.

What's best might also change with the player - some might see the alignment better by favoring the stick while others might favor the contact points line, like how different players have different centers of vision because of eye dominance.

Excellent points. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

You got it right

Thanks Joe. What you were describing makes sense now.

Regards,
Dave