Is there more deflection on hard inside english than hard outside?

[Andrew Manning]

I was practicing inside english tonight. When I hit the following shot with speed, I was literally needing a "full ball aim" to make the object ball. If I was using outside on the same shot and factored in the same amount of deflection, I'd be aiming @ a quarter ball AWAY from the object ball - I mean I'd be aiming at, and IMO shooting a whiff! What's up with that? (I also did the mirror image, so I do not believe it is a dominant eye thing)

I'm surprised nobody has picked up on this yet. I found your problem and highlighted it.

The highlighted sentence isn't true. You're compensating about twice as much on the outside shot as the inside!

Your problem is perception. You perceive adjustments toward the thick side of the cut as being larger than they are, since you're not as accustomed to adjusting in this direction. But you're used to outside english, and you're very comfortable with adjusting your aim thinner to compensate for the squirt.

So when you've adjusted to "full ball" to make the shot with inside, you think you've made a huge adjustment, but it's actually not that big. So then you make a huge adjustment on the other side, and you've over-compensated.

-Andrew

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

I'm surprised nobody has picked up on this yet. I found your problem and highlighted it.

The highlighted sentence isn't true. You're compensating about twice as much on the outside shot as the inside!

Your problem is perception. You perceive adjustments toward the thick side of the cut as being larger than they are, since you're not as accustomed to adjusting in this direction. But you're used to outside english, and you're very comfortable with adjusting your aim thinner to compensate for the squirt.

So when you've adjusted to "full ball" to make the shot with inside, you think you've made a huge adjustment, but it's actually not that big. So then you make a huge adjustment on the other side, and you've over-compensated.

-Andrew

Andrew, please try the shot I cuetabled in my OP. Someone, please try it. I swear, I am aiming full ball to get whitey 3 rails. If I don't, I overcut.

Again, good old maple shaft, average speed GC III 9 footer (these things matter, so if you're using a LD shaft on new 760 with superspeed rails, apples become oranges).

Thanks,

Matt

 

[dr_dave]

I was practicing inside english tonight. When I hit the following shot with speed, I was literally needing a "full ball aim" to make the object ball. If I was using outside on the same shot and factored in the same amount of deflection, I'd be aiming @ a quarter ball AWAY from the object ball - I mean I'd be aiming at, and IMO shooting a whiff! What's up with that? (I also did the mirror image, so I do not believe it is a dominant eye thing)

If you used the exact same amount of tip offset and cue elevation and shot speed, and if you compensate for squirt the same (e.g., using BHE), then you should notice very little difference in a shot like this (when the OB is close to the pocket). However, there will be a slight difference due to throw. The difference due to throw would be more noticeable with slow, stun shots, especially when the OB if farther from the pocket. More info (with video and article links) on all of these topics can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside
​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Ponytail]

So..

How does the cue ball know when you're using inside english? I mean.. inside english is relative to the shot. If you're cutting a ball to the left, and using left hand english, that makes it inside. If you're cutting a ball the right, and using right hand english, that makes IT inside.

So if you are getting more deflection (actually squirt, but we're going to stay with the same terminology as the poster) from inside english, how does the cue ball know when you are using it?

I know the answer, I'm just wanting the OP to think about it.

 

[dr_dave]

I'd like to change the discussion to inside english - its challenging use, how to improve your use of it, and its practical use in competitive play. It has to be one of the most difficult shots in pool.

Both outside and inside English have their own benefits and "challenges." For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#outside​

English can actually be easier to "manage" than outside English, provided you are good at compensating for squirt and swerve (squerve), partly because, with inside English, there is less throw, and the throw varies the least with small changes in English (as compared to outside English). For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside​

Regards,
Dave

 

[pooltchr]

So..

How does the cue ball know when you're using inside english? I mean.. inside english is relative to the shot. If you're cutting a ball to the left, and using left hand english, that makes it inside. If you're cutting a ball the right, and using right hand english, that makes IT inside.

So if you are getting more deflection from inside english, how does the cue ball know when you are using it?

I know the answer, I'm just wanting the OP to think about it.

Exactly! The cue ball doesn't know what the shot angle is. It only reacts to where and how the tip hits it. It will deflect exactly the same, regardless.

Steve

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Ponytail (post #24):
How does the cue ball know when you're using inside english? I mean.. inside english is relative to the shot. If you're cutting a ball to the left, and using left hand english, that makes it inside. If you're cutting a ball the right, and using right hand english, that makes IT inside.

So if you are getting more deflection from inside english, how does the cue ball know when you are using it?

I know the answer, I'm just wanting the OP to think about it.

KoolKat9Lives (post #5):
I know physics empiracally mean the cloth doesn't know the cue ball was hit with outside vs inside.

Seems he already has...

pj
chgo

 

[STICKBNDER]

i think its all to do with throw. kinda like when you cant see enough of the ball to shoot it straight in the hole, but u use outside english to throw the OB a little. same thing. u are ajusting for the throw.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Why is inside so difficult [compared with outside]?

It's a combination of things mentioned in this thread:

1. You use it less often (partly because you're not as good with it).
2. You use it for different (often more difficult) shots.
3. You use different spin with it (usually high vs. usually center or low).
4. You hit it at a different speed (usually harder).
5. It's less self-correcting.

Pay attention to these things while practicing inside and outside shots and you'll get better at inside pretty quickly.

A specific suggestion: pay attention to exactly where your stick is pointing on each shot compared with the CB/OB contact points - as you make and miss shots it will help you see the exact differences in how to aim them (it also helps generally to build accurate "shot memory").

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Excellent post ... one of the best I've read in a while.

Regards,
Dave

It's a combination of things mentioned in this thread:

1. You use it less often (partly because you're not as good with it).
2. You use it for different (often more difficult) shots.
3. You use different spin with it (usually high vs. usually center or low).
4. You hit it at a different speed (usually harder).
5. It's less self-correcting.

Pay attention to these things while practicing inside and outside shots and you'll get better at inside pretty quickly.

A specific suggestion: pay attention to exactly where your stick is pointing on each shot compared with the CB/OB contact points - as you make and miss shots it will help you see the exact differences in how to aim them (it also helps generally to build accurate "shot memory").

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

KoolKat9Lives:
When I hit the following shot with speed, I was literally needing a "full ball aim" to make the object ball. If I was using outside on the same shot and factored in the same amount of deflection, I'd be aiming @ a quarter ball AWAY from the object ball

Andrew:
The highlighted sentence isn't true. You're compensating about twice as much on the outside shot as the inside!

I don't think so. A "full ball aim" is a little less than 1/2 ball off the no-squirve aim line. A "quarter ball away" with outside is a little more than 1/4 ball off. Depending on what "a little less" and "a little more" mean, these could be roughly equivalent (although it's pretty hard to tell with these inexact descriptions).

You perceive adjustments toward the thick side of the cut as being larger than they are, since you're not as accustomed to adjusting in this direction. But you're used to outside english, and you're very comfortable with adjusting your aim thinner to compensate for the squirt.

This could be true regardless of the above.

pj
chgo

 

[Tennesseejoe]

I was practicing inside English tonight. When I hit the following shot with speed, I was literally needing a "full ball aim" to make the object ball. If I was using outside on the same shot and factored in the same amount of deflection, I'd be aiming @ a quarter ball AWAY from the object ball - I mean I'd be aiming at, and IMO shooting a whiff! What's up with that? (I also did the mirror image, so I do not believe it is a dominant eye thing)

KoolKat9Lives,

These posts have given a great overview of "Why this happens". Now this may help in "How to correct it".

Set up a straight in shot and then shoot it with either right or left English. Try to make the cue ball spin in place after it contacts the object ball. If you use a measles cue ball and spin it hard, the measles will seem to disappear. After you become proficient at this, then shoot it again with English but add a little high or low. Next, try this by varying the distances of the object ball, cue ball and pocket.

Hopefully this will give a better perception of aiming these difficult but interesting shots.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

KoolKat9Lives,

These posts have given a great overview of "Why this happens". Now this may help in "How to correct it".

Set up a straight in shot and then shoot it with either right or left English. Try to make the cue ball spin in place after it contacts the object ball. If you use a measles cue ball and spin it hard, the measles will seem to disappear. After you become proficient at this, then shoot it again with English but add a little high or low. Next, try this by varying the distances of the object ball, cue ball and pocket.

Hopefully this will give a better perception of aiming these difficult but interesting shots.

That's an interesting test - I'll try it. BTW, I don't really know if when I say a "quarter ball hit" or "half-ball hit", that it means the same as what others understand. All I know is to make this shot, to me, I'm aiming dead center on the object ball, so that must mean full ball aim.

BTW, I'm a very strong B player, perhaps even a low A now when I match up for some $$$. I beat the 9 ball ghost more often than not. I thought I'd mention that since I've made a couple dumb, poorly thought out statements on this poorly titled thread, lol.

Thanks for many good posts my compadres!!! I've learned a ton here from a lot of good people. 2 years ago, I struggled with the 5 ball ghost. :thumbup:

 

[EZMoney]

Knowing how to use inside or outside english is a hard subject to define orally. Pool is a visual game, some of the best players in the world can't explain what their doing at the table but yet they can produce the most amazing shots.

You need to put your stroke on automatic pilot, that is to say let your unconscious mind execute the shot. Too much conscious control over your shot will lead to poor execution. See it, be it, do it, don't think about it.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Knowing how to use inside or outside english is a hard subject to define orally. Pool is a visual game, some of the best players in the world can't explain what their doing at the table but yet they can produce the most amazing shots.

You need to put your stroke on automatic pilot, that is to say let your unconscious mind execute the shot. Too much conscious control over your shot will lead to poor execution. See it, be it, do it, don't think about it.

Good point EZ. As far as that process goes, meaning - to get to the point where the unconscious minds takes over - would you say you have to learn with the conscious first and practice it until it's engrained?

 

[scottyr44]

I learned years ago when i first started that i would address the cue ball slightly off center to the left, so i would be putting parallel english unintentionally on the ball. But when i would use BHE for inside english the cue ball wouldn't squirt as much because i was hitting closer to the center of gravity of the cue ball. Get a third eye stroke trainer and make sure your dead on center of the cue ball.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

EZMoney:
You need to put your stroke on automatic pilot, that is to say let your unconscious mind execute the shot.

I think this is good advice if put in proper perspective, but easily overstated.

Too much conscious control over your shot will lead to poor execution. See it, be it, do it, don't think about it.

Here's where perspective comes in. For instance, I think anybody can benefit from thinking and talking about pool technique, physics, etc. on forums such as ABZ (where, obviously, we're not actually playing). I also think it's a rare player who can't benefit from some thinking and conscious planning while playing, assuming you "get out of the way" of your instincts when it comes time to execute. I even think that some players can execute more consciously than others without "blocking their instincts" too much.

In other words, a statement like "don't think about it" is way too broad and needs to be qualified.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I learned years ago when i first started that i would address the cue ball slightly off center to the left, so i would be putting parallel english unintentionally on the ball.

Yes, you were putting sidespin on the CB but not adjusting your aim to compensate for squirt.

But when i would use BHE for inside english the cue ball wouldn't squirt as much because i was hitting closer to the center of gravity of the cue ball.

BHE* doesn't reduce squirt or allow you to hit closer to the "center of gravity" (I assume you mean centerball on the CB); it just changes the angle at which you hit the CB (not parallel) so the squirt sends the CB back in the direction you want it to go.

It's like if you have a rifle that always shoots a little to the left. You can learn to point it a little to the right and hit the target, but you haven't made it shoot straight; you've compensated by changing your aim. That's what BHE is supposed to do (whether it does it accurately depends on lots of things, mostly how the player uses it).

pj
chgo

*BHE = "backhand english": applying sidespin by moving your back hand sideways, pivoting the cue at your (fixed) bridge.

 

[Majic]

BTW, I'm a very strong B player, perhaps even a low A now when I match up for some $$$. I beat the 9 ball ghost more often than not. I thought I'd mention that since I've made a couple dumb, poorly thought out statements on this poorly titled thread, lol.

Oh man ........ I'm sceeeered now :grin::grin-square::wink:

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Oh man ........ I'm sceeeered now :grin::grin-square::wink:

It's the internet Lou, I can type anything I want. So there!

Cya Sunday partner!