Oliver Ortmann's stroke

metallicane

metallicane

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has he always shot with a chicken wing or is this something new? I do not recall his elbow ever being that far out, but after watching him play Hohmann last night, you could really see how far away from his body the cue is during his stroke. Anyone know?
 
he always did, it's one of those if you don't know who he is think that he should not be able to play, yet we all know how great he's been.
 
Thanks. IO have a few DVDs with him but never noticed, but last night 2 rows up you could really see it especially when he was shooting right at you. Interesting.
 
horton129 said:
he always did, it's one of those if you don't know who he is think that he should not be able to play, yet we all know how great he's been.
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Meh, his stroke is pure straight. He simply stands more off to the side of the shot then some people but his head is still right over the shot, which has the advantage of allowing a free stroke that the body does not get in the way of. Mike Sigel did the same thing but neither one of those guys has a stroke that looks vulnerable IMO. They both come through the ball as good as anyone. If someone thinks those strokes look bad they A) don't know quite what they are seeing and B) are about to lose a ton of cash.
 
I never said his stroke wasn't good, but I bet there wouldn't be a teacher out there that would teach that stroke. Just like in golf, if I see someone with an unorthodox swing and they hit the ball well, I won't bet them because that swing is repeatable. So is Ortmann's.
 
He has always done it that way. I think it's a little more pronounced than his younger days.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Keith has a sidearm stroke. A chicken wing is the opposite.
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I'm so confused.

If elbow out is sidearm and a chicken wing is the opposite, then a chicken wing must be straight back? Don't most players play with the elbow straight back? Is everybody a chicken wing or sidearm?

Not trying to be a smarta$$, I am truely confused and would like to learn.
I honestly am confused
 
Oliver's stroke is a sidearm style with a canted-inwards wrist

cuetechasaurus said:
Keith has a sidearm stroke. A chicken wing is the opposite.
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And actually, Oliver's stroke isn't a chicken wing either, as suggested by the original poster. Oliver's stroke more resembles a sidearm style (like Keith McCready's), than it does a true chicken wing style like Gabe Owen's. Oliver's stroke is unique in that he has that canted-inwards wrist. So while his arm is angled away from his body (i.e. his forearm is angled out sidearm style), his wrist is canted (bent) inwards towards the floor. Oliver's stroke action involves his shoulder, with a slight scooping action, as part of his unique style. And yes, amazingly straight and accurate with it! Oliver's fun to watch, that's for sure. I was rooting for him in the semis of the recent Predator 14.1 Straight Pool World Championships. (Folks watching the streams or who purchase the Accu-Stats DVDs of the semis/finals will notice a skinny guy in the front row of the audience wearing a yellow "Bank On Brother!" Banking with the Beard shirt -- that's me. :) )

-Sean
 
grandpapkusky said:
I'm so confused.

If elbow out is sidearm and a chicken wing is the opposite, then a chicken wing must be straight back? Don't most players play with the elbow straight back? Is everybody a chicken wing or sidearm?

Not trying to be a smarta$$, I am truely confused and would like to learn.
I honestly am confused
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Keith's elbow is tucked in near his body, his forearm is what sticks out. A chicken wing is when your hand swings close to your body, and your elbow juts out.

Having a straight elbow is right in between the two above.
 
Example pictures: sidearm vs. chicken wing

grandpapkusky said:
I'm so confused.

If elbow out is sidearm and a chicken wing is the opposite, then a chicken wing must be straight back? Don't most players play with the elbow straight back? Is everybody a chicken wing or sidearm?

Not trying to be a smarta$$, I am truely confused and would like to learn.
I honestly am confused
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grandpapkusky:

Check out pics 5, 7, and 10 here:
http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showplayergallery.php?playernum=693

Notice how Oliver has his elbow tucked in close to his body, with his forearm angled out away from his body, and his canted (bent) inwards wrist. This is a sidearm style, but with a canted/bent wrist. (A "pure" sidearm style has the wrist straight with the forearm -- again, angled away from the body -- with the cue resting more on the pads of the fingers, just like Keith McCready's style.) Oliver bends his wrist inward towards his body (so that he can grip the cue deeper into his hand rather than resting upon the pads of his fingers), but since his forearm is pointing away from his body, the final result is that his hand points straight downwards towards the floor.

Now compare this with a true chicken wing style, like Gabe Owen's style:
http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showplayergallery.php?playernum=37

Notice how Gabe's elbow juts out from his body, with his forearm pointing INWARDS towards (not outwards away from) his body. Hence the name -- elbow jutting out = chicken wing.

Hope that helps clear it up!
-Sean
 
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Here's another picture I took of him at the IPT. Notice how right eye dominant he is! His chin is not directly over the cue.

IMG_1315 (Medium).JPG

You can almost see his swing here:

IMG_1318 (Medium).JPG

His stance is a little funny too. Looks like his weight is backwards a little. My honey, Mike Zimmerman in the background.

IMG_1378 (Medium).JPG

A blurry picture of Oliver's cue. It was zoomed in quite a bit.

IMG_1396 (Medium).JPG
 
Oliver looks to me like a guy that started the game while still a very young kid!

I also have the sidearm style that I have tried to remedy over the years. I always keep going back to the old school and then try the "snooker" thing for a while. I dunno...if I ad to pick a way to play forever...I"d go with the Ortman way IMO...

G.
 
Gerry said:
Oliver looks to me like a guy that started the game while still a very young kid!

I also have the sidearm style that I have tried to remedy over the years. I always keep going back to the old school and then try the "snooker" thing for a while. I dunno...if I ad to pick a way to play forever...I"d go with the Ortman way IMO...

G.
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I agree it looks like he started very young and why change. The guy is a beast at the table. I said "chicken wing" in the original post because that is what people were calling it in the stands at the Open. Side arm/chicken wing/whatever, it is different and I had never noticed before. In fact, I went back and watched his 1989 US Open match with Steve Mizerak and it did not look as pronounced back then, but you really never got any great views of his stroke either.
 
He began to play at age 6, that´s why he has his arm sidewards.

I really don´t think it is that much important how your arm is or your stance or whatever. there are so many world champion players that have not the book type stance,stroke... but they are among the worlds best.

here is a list of Olivers titles that proves it :

World 9-Ball and straight pool
14 times European champion
40-times german champion
9 times Mosconi Cup
2 times Challenge of Champions Winner
2 times US Open straight pool Champion
15 Eurotour wins
couple 100 tournaments all over europe
 
Oliver

stands and plays with correct form. For those that don't know (and teachers I am OLD SCHOOL), you are suppose to stand at a 45 degree angle to your stick, and 60 percent of weight on a locked back leg, with 40 percent on a slightly bent front leg.

Oliver is a joy to watch play, and I am sure has been an inspiration to many players, German and otherwise.
 
Snapshot9 said:
stands and plays with correct form. For those that don't know (and teachers I am OLD SCHOOL), you are suppose to stand at a 45 degree angle to your stick, and 60 percent of weight on a locked back leg, with 40 percent on a slightly bent front leg.

Oliver is a joy to watch play, and I am sure has been an inspiration to many players, German and otherwise.
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If you look at the picture I posted, his back leg is bent and his front leg is almost straight, quite the opposite of what you are describing. I must be even older school, lol, because I believe most of the weight should be forward, into your arm, hand and wrist. It almost looks like I could push him from the side and he would topple over.

Warren Costanza (Monk) gave me a tip that if I ever absolutely needed to make a ball, push hard into the table with your hand. He said it was a "Hang-ger". (He pronounced it like 2 separate words with a hard 'g'.)

Even though Oliver's stance looks a little unstable, there is no question he delivers beautifully. My husband has an unorthodox squat stance and there is no questioning his ability either. If you can make the cueball do what you want it to do, no matter the stance, grip or bridge, then that is a good thing! :wink:
 
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