terrible workmanship

hangemhigh said:
icon2 said:

btw tommy . . . vols are going down! ; )
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LOL, it was a great game, should have got down with you and got some points.
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never would've thunk we wouldnt manage to score one frealkin' td!?
had to block 2 fg's just ta manage a 2 pt win!!
vols played good enough to win!
tide was very LUCKY! :)

s'cuse the OT . . . back to the thread topic.
think deanoc kinda nailed it though . . .
just treat'em like you would expect to be treated, if the shoe were on the other foot!
 
deanoc said:
I think the best advice was given years ago"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" lets say you had this problem with your best friend,his cue didn't meet your standards,"what do you do?'

You don't have to let it slide,neither do you have to disgrace or humiliate him either. Cue makers are regular guys sometimes things go wrong,they spend hours working on something and it just does not get right,sure he can trash it,but last week he put one in the little can,a guy comes buy and saye 'Whats this" its something I goofed up on so I trashed it says the cuemaker.Looks OK to me I'll give you $5000 for it rather than wait.i'll take it like it is,20 years from now it will be worth what those old Balabushkas are worth and they almost all had imperfections,but hey thats part of the charm,Picasso took an occasional careless stroke,you wanna throw away one now?'

So the most famous cuemaker in the world lets go a less than perfect cue,so what 90% of us would be glad to have it,if it doesn't reach your standards,Talk to him nicely,whether it works out your way or not you have no right to ruin his reputation. After all if he was your mom you wouldn't want someone to magnify her every flaw'

In the early days one of ,if not the most famous cuemakers in the world made me a cue,the wrap was a poor fit,a real rookie blunder. Now I loved this guy,so I sent the cue back and called him and explained in a way you treat your friends,you can't let this work go out of your shop because...He turned into the one of the best ever

I am not addressing this to Tikkler but to the entire Az public,sometimes there gets to be an angry criticat spirit on these post that smacks of big bully and in response I am calling for a different spirit.Why kick a guy for next to nothing,especially when it got nothing to do with you anyway.Some of these people want to lynch me for not posting pictures.

I know there are some cuemakers not so far from crooks,and they should be dealt with in a different manner,but I don't believe Tikkler was suggesting that now.

Dean
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This was a great post with some good things to consider.
 
yep

deanoc said:
I think the best advice was given years ago"do unto others as you would have them do unto you" lets say you had this problem with your best friend,his cue didn't meet your standards,"what do you do?'

You don't have to let it slide,neither do you have to disgrace or humiliate him either. Cue makers are regular guys sometimes things go wrong,they spend hours working on something and it just does not get right,sure he can trash it,but last week he put one in the little can,a guy comes buy and saye 'Whats this" its something I goofed up on so I trashed it says the cuemaker.Looks OK to me I'll give you $5000 for it rather than wait.i'll take it like it is,20 years from now it will be worth what those old Balabushkas are worth and they almost all had imperfections,but hey thats part of the charm,Picasso took an occasional careless stroke,you wanna throw away one now?'

So the most famous cuemaker in the world lets go a less than perfect cue,so what 90% of us would be glad to have it,if it doesn't reach your standards,Talk to him nicely,whether it works out your way or not you have no right to ruin his reputation. After all if he was your mom you wouldn't want someone to magnify her every flaw'

In the early days one of ,if not the most famous cuemakers in the world made me a cue,the wrap was a poor fit,a real rookie blunder. Now I loved this guy,so I sent the cue back and called him and explained in a way you treat your friends,you can't let this work go out of your shop because...He turned into the one of the best ever

I am not addressing this to Tikkler but to the entire Az public,sometimes there gets to be an angry criticat spirit on these post that smacks of big bully and in response I am calling for a different spirit.Why kick a guy for next to nothing,especially when it got nothing to do with you anyway.Some of these people want to lynch me for not posting pictures.

I know there are some cuemakers not so far from crooks,and they should be dealt with in a different manner,but I don't believe Tikkler was suggesting that now.

Dean
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Dean, you are so right. All too often it seems we are looking to bash someone in the name of "being upfront and outspoken". We sort of forget that the person we are talking about isnt just a name on the screen, but a living breathing adult. That is why I took the higher road of talking to the person involved.

But the fact remains that when you are talking about a little mistake that is almost totally unseeable with the naked eye, compared to a cue with major glaring problems from the tip to the butt, it might change your decision.

I will continue to do business as I always have, but my advice to a few guys out there, and you can obviously take this to anybody that does any kind of hand made items, When something leaves your shop it represents YOU. I also feel that 99.9% of the cuemakers I buy from feel exactly that way, to the extreme......
 
Newton said:
John, I hope you don't have me in mind when it comes to pictures and Fury cues :wink:

K
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No not at all. The pictures you took represent a cue after it's been out in the world for a while and no one can say based on the pictures what happened to the cue to get it into that state.

What Steve means is that when you receive a brand new cue and it exhibits all sorts of visible flaws then what does that say about the person who sent it out and how they view their craft and how they view their customer.

The proper analogy to use cases - and sorry for using cases but it's what I know best - is that you can receive a case that looks great but then six months later the handle is torn because the maker didn't think far enough ahead to compensate for the stress points. In that situation the customer may receive a great looking product and have no idea that it's doomed to fail soon.

Just two days ago we had a case ready to pack and we were doing the final clean up and spilled some super glue onto the side. My people worked hard to clean it off and restore the leather. After an hour they got it to the point where it could have easily been taken as a natural marking in the leather and the customer might have accepted it. Then again they might not have and been offended that we sent it. My first instinct was to have them rebuild the case but I allowed them the opportunity to try and correct it so that they could understand that when there is a glaring mistake it's not enough to just cover it up. So at the end of the day they spent five hours on it and took it apart, replaced the part which was damaged and got it out the door the next day. The customer will receive a case where I am not in the least afraid to have anyone take high res photos of. I don't need to explain a strange spot or make excuses for something that isn't quite right.

All of us who make things sometimes screw up and rarely is something truly flawless - meaning without flaws. But it's the obvious things that we really need to be careful on - for example a customer will probably never know when the edges of the d-ring fob are not perfectly aligned and made flush. They don't look at that detail on a case and EXPECT it to be any particular way. But they certainly expect the pockets to be aligned right, the stitching to be straight, the lid to fit properly, the handles to be straight and so on.... big visible clear things that ought to be right.

That's what I meant. If you post pictures of my case a year later after hard use and it's in tatters then that's another issue and we can discuss how it got that way, whether my construction is inadequate or whether your handling is excessively rough. But I hope never to send you a case where you can post damning pictures out of the box. And I have to believe that any of my customers have the right to post high res pix of their cases if they choose to. They owe me nothing when they have received their product. It's a courtesy for them to allow me to correct a mistake without public exposure and scrutiny.

Anyway, that's my opinion on it - enough for me. It's Jessie time.
 
What Steve means is that when you receive a brand new cue and it exhibits all sorts of visible flaws then what does that say about the person who sent it out and how they view their craft and how they view their customer. JB


Its as simple as that. Its what we do after that when it gets complicated....LOL
 
J B cases

this came up with a JB case that I bought some year or two ago.I bought a fancy 2x4 with pouch and all(i never carry 2 cues or use a pouch,but this case was so beautiful I couldn't refrain from buying it) so I called John and bought it. When I loaded my cue and started to put my stuff in the pouch I found the fit was so tight that I couldn't easily put the stuff in. I happened to talk to John and so I mentioned the problem which I thought would be a problem,hesaid I was right that he had noticed it and had already changed the specs.(He had only made 2 or 4 of these ,but he quickly corrected the little problem) I said good,it was no big deal. He said'It is a big deal to me,send it back and I will send you 2 new ones.He kept on insisting so I had him make 1 for Mike Cochran and one for Tim Scruggs to carry their personal cues. He did,they do and thats the rest of the story.
That was an example of someone making an honest error if you will,and going over backwards to make it right.

Now in case someone thinks it was only because I was a good customer, I wasn't a big customer for John,I just met him and explained to him I was a Thomas case man,I just wanted this one beautiful case and that was it.

Well ,John made me a fan of his.I tell this story to show how I think it ought to be when there is a mistake,especially when the craftsman is new to the game.

I could tell you some good Verl Horn stories but I am tired and its bedtime in Texas
 
I totally agree...

tikkler said:
Dean, you are so right. All too often it seems we are looking to bash someone in the name of "being upfront and outspoken". We sort of forget that the person we are talking about isnt just a name on the screen, but a living breathing adult. That is why I took the higher road of talking to the person involved.

But the fact remains that when you are talking about a little mistake that is almost totally unseeable with the naked eye, compared to a cue with major glaring problems from the tip to the butt, it might change your decision.

I will continue to do business as I always have, but my advice to a few guys out there, and you can obviously take this to anybody that does any kind of hand made items, When something leaves your shop it represents YOU. I also feel that 99.9% of the cuemakers I buy from feel exactly that way, to the extreme......
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tikkler said:
If I did that I would be then taking the second choice. Thanks for all the honest answers
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I am looking to purchase a cue , and would like my first custom one made from an AZ cue builder.

I wish incidents like the one you are talking about were posted up so I would have a heads up on which makers had many incidents and which have not.
 
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*pic deleted, don't get into a fit, freedom means people can speculate if they'd like to*

Could it be this one?!?!

Lol just random guessing, only cue you didn't write up a description about that you recently received. Also only one of the cues u recently received that doesn't have multiple pics.

You get so many cues from your history it looks like.. so I guess your bound to have some problems some day.

bored speculation ;)



Heres a question you can answer... how many cues do you own now?
 
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tikkler said:
If I did that I would be then taking the second choice. Thanks for all the honest answers
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Thanks Steve, for being a gentleman about it all. Way to often on here, things are said way to prematurely, by a customer, before they even contact the maker and before he can try to make good for a mistake (which we all make at times), Then the 'Mob mentalities' run with it and the damage can't be taken back. (Such as someone posting a pic of a cue, without any clue, digging around just to stir things up)
Most people learn from their mistakes, and progress forward. Some don't even try, and they will die along the way, as they should. As stated earlier, even the greats have made their mistakes. I was told a long time ago by my dad, an experienced cabinet maker/woodworker, 'it's not about not making a mistake, it's about how you deal with it when you do make them' It happens, as we are all humans We are not perfect by design.
Dave
 
Destrukkt said:
IMG_0183.jpg


Could it be this one?!?!

Lol just random guessing, only cue you didn't write up a description about that you recently received. Also only one of the cues u recently received that doesn't have multiple pics.

You get so many cues from your history it looks like.. so I guess your bound to have some problems some day.

bored speculation ;)



Heres a question you can answer... how many cues do you own now?
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If he wanted to state the maker or show the cue, he would've. Don't go diggin where you don't belong, he already stated he wasn't going to out anyone, when responding to your earlier post:
"If I did that I would be then taking the second choice. Thanks for all the honest answers"

should be clear enough for even the slowest....
Dave
 
deanoc said:
Well ,John made me a fan of his.I tell this story to show how I think it ought to be when there is a mistake,especially when the craftsman is new to the game.
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LOL - thanks Dean, in case you don't already know it I had 13 years of experience screwing up people's cases with Instroke before starting up JB cases. :-)

Nothing like making a batch of a couple hundred cases with handles that are too weak to hammer it home that all the details need to be looked at.
 
Destrukkt said:
I am looking to purchase a cue , and would like my first custom one made from an AZ cue builder.

I wish incidents like the one you are talking about were posted up so I would have a heads up on which makers had many incidents and which have not.
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You already have that. Do your own research. Obviously the names of any cuemakers who have constant "issues" will become clear as will the ABSENCE of public issues.

One thing is clear to me and it's that it takes an awful lot of frustration for someone to air their grievances on the forum. I know because I certainly have a few customers on here who are being very patient with us about their orders.

So it tells me that most people are pretty understanding and forgiving and when they finally let it out on the forum then in most cases they have a legitimate gripe.

If you are sincere about wanting to do your homework then do it because it's all there for anyone wanting to spend some time searching. Whether Steve names names or not doesn't matter because IF your cuemaker is the type who has a lot of problems then it will have come out at some point.

I will save you a little bit of searching though, Eddie Wheat is a few Sharpies shy of a full set so you may want to stay away from him. Wheatbux are trading for pennies on the dollar though so if you do decide on a Wheat Cue then you can probably get some coupons cheap.
 
Destrukkt said:
IMG_0183.jpg


Could it be this one?!?!

Lol just random guessing, only cue you didn't write up a description about that you recently received. Also only one of the cues u recently received that doesn't have multiple pics.

You get so many cues from your history it looks like.. so I guess your bound to have some problems some day.

bored speculation ;)



Heres a question you can answer... how many cues do you own now?
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There is nothing wrong with that McWorter, and Steve didn't get that cue directly from Jerry.

Poor speculation.
 
Exactly the kind of pointless & potentially damaging speculative innuendo that this thread is trying to ward off.
 
whoever submitted the pics with the implied accuzation is

in the position of needing to make an open,frank and sincere apology.It seems that you have made an undererhanded implied knock on a well known and respected cue maker.
I have only met Mc Worter once,some 20 years ago when Rick Landsburd took me over to his house where he was just starting to make cues,I made the mistake of not supporting him then,as he was relatively unknown.I lived to see him become famous and excell at his craft.I was impressed with his chacgter then as I am sure I would be now.

As everyone on here knows Tikkler did not put the name of the cuemaker on here for a very good reason so these implied criticisms are without a doubt unnessary.I have to agree with the previous posters that this is exactly the type of thing that is so unnessary and offensive

Dean
 
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