About to destroy a good stance to get a better one: is it wise?

F

Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello everybody,

My name is Pierre from Belgium. I'm new on the forum. I've played various forms of billiard for 20 years (mainly carom and straight pool) and I'm about to turn my way of playing upside down, so before doing this all the way, I'd like your enlightened opinion.

Here's my problem: I play an honest game, meaning that can average 40-50 in straight rail carom, and I can run 2 or 3 racks without too much trouble in straight pool. However, I can NOT for the life of me pocket more than one out of ten of these long straight shots in pool. This is what limits my game: I inevitably encounter one of these shots, miss and leave the table to my opponent. If he happens to be half decent, he takes over and I might as well forfeit the game.

I've known for years what the problem stems from: when I take my aim very low (with my chin on the cue). my shooting arm is "toed-in" about 15 degrees. This happens whether I play left or right handed. When I'm not so low, it's more or less vertical, but not quite. I believe I picked up the habit when I was a lot more portly than I am today, and body fat prevented me from sticking my arm to my side as much as I needed for my forearm to drop down vertically. As a result, I developed a sort of constant tension in my muscles to have a straight stroke, but on long straight shots that I have to hit hard, it just doesn't cut it.

So yesterday, 50 lbs lighter, I took the plunge and decided to revisit my entire way of playing. After 8 hours at the table with the help of a friend, twisting and contorting, I finally managed to find a good routine to position my shoulder in a way that lets my forearm swing freely, vertically, and without any muscle action whatsoever. And lo, I finally managed to hit those long shots as hard as I could almost always spot on. What's more, since I relaxed my entire swing, any draw, follow or side spin responds wildly, almost uncontrollably.

So, I think I'm on the right track to improve my game. Trouble is, now I now have trouble hitting some simple shots, and I can't control the cue ball anymore: all my references are out of whack, and I've lost my "dead reckoning", i.e. I have to start using the ghost ball and consciously try to evaluate impact points. Not to mention, I've become unable to compensate for throw anymore, and masse shots end up miles from where I intended them to be. Finally, I'm sore everywhere, my back muscles hurt like hell.

So, my question is this: I'm in the middle of the tournament season, and I reckon that, while what I'm doing is ultimately the right thing to do, it may take weeks before my body adjusts and I play correctly without thinking about it anymore. But I have 3 important matches coming up next week. So I'm thinking of sticking to what I know until the end of the season in June, but I'd be sad to know I could do better if I played correctly. Or I could use my new technique on long shots and keep playing crooked for the others, but I'm afraid to end up developing a "hybrid" stance that'll be goofy again. Or I could damn the rest of the season to hell, use the remaining matches as real-life training of my new stroke, and hope that I'll integrate it fast enough to not look like an idiot before June, and not end up with strained back muscles.

What would you do?

By the way, this is a great forum with a lot of interesting people, thank you very much for the service.
 
in my opinion in your case just a very good pool-trainer/instructor could help you. don t know ppl in belgium- just here in germany. maybe really some lil corrections are necessary- but dont think that someone can really help you now from far away.
all the best for u and gl,

Ingo
 
I'm a little confused. You made a change to your stroke that now allows you to delever the cue ball exactly where you need it on long straight in shots. If that requires you to change the way you aim on other shots, then it seems you may have been compensating subconsciously to allow for the errors in your stroke before the change.

You still need to deliver the cue ball to the same place you always needed to deliver it. But now, it sounds like your delivery is more accurate.

In the long run, and accurate delivery system for the cue ball is what we all need. If you know where to aim, and you can get the cue ball to that point, you have everything you need to make a ball. The rest is just position play for the next shot.

Steve
 
imo he reached someday a point (no bad offense to belgium :p), where he just thought that his stance is not *good* in pool- therefore he s comin from classic carom billards his head is a bit higher as usual for a poolplayer. anyway u can play even so pool with your head a bit higher- shouldn t be a problem- as long as u don t think about it and make yourself crazy :-)
i met many (ex)-carom players which had that problem.


if m totally wrong about my idea- sorry :)

Ingo
 
I don't know why it matters where the OP's head is positioned over his cue. It doesn't make any difference whether it is high or low over the cue, as long as his perception stays the same. He has grooved his stroke, so that he can deliver into the percieved straight line, without trouble, regardless of stroke speed. That means he likely has a good solid "process".

To the OP: Stand however you want. As long as you are balanced, comfortable, and have free movement of the cue, your stance is fine. I have seen other students whose stroking arm was "toe'd" in or out before, but it didn't affect their ability to deliver the cue in a straight line. Whatever your stance is (along with your arm and shoulder) it must be relaxed, in order to play well. Good luck with your game!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
pooltchr said:
I'm a little confused. You made a change to your stroke that now allows you to delever the cue ball exactly where you need it on long straight in shots. If that requires you to change the way you aim on other shots, then it seems you may have been compensating subconsciously to allow for the errors in your stroke before the change
Click to expand...

Either I subconsciously "skewed" my aim differently according to the type of shot I shoot to compensate for my crooked arm, which I doubt because I checked my aim with the help of my friend, or I concentrate too much on my new stance and forget to look ahead. Either way, I'll see if time and training solves the problem. But don't get me wrong, I don't miss all simple shots, just some of them that are simply inexcusable to miss :)

Ratta said:
[...] he just thought that his stance is not *good* in pool- therefore he s comin from classic carom billards his head is a bit higher as usual for a poolplayer. anyway u can play even so pool with your head a bit higher- shouldn t be a problem- as long as u don t think about it and make yourself crazy
Click to expand...

I don't really have problems with carom. I rarely feel the need to aim very accurately when I play carom: I just look at the shot, reach in the collection of "typical" shots in my head (95% of which are between 1/4 and 3/4 ball, which are easy), modify the OB fullness and/or english a bit and shoot it. Unless the previous shot was truly messed up, there are no tough situation that requires truly difficult aiming. It's usually more a matter of stroke and follow-through. So yes, you're right, I do play carom with my head higher than in pool.

In pool on the other hand, situations are more varied, so I play with my head anywhere between birdseye view of the shot and fully down with my chin on the cue. The latter position is what created problems for me.

Scott Lee said:
To the OP: Stand however you want. As long as you are balanced, comfortable, and have free movement of the cue, your stance is fine.
Click to expand...

That's the problem: my previous stroke felt very natural and balanced, and worked very well, apart for long straight hard shots. Those kill my game. I can run 20 balls and choke on the 21st, and if my opponents runs 30 balls after me, then I'm 10 points behind. All my long straight shots deviated 1 to 2 full balls to the left, and I made sure my aim is straight, so I couldn't kid myself that my stroke was okay anymore.

I've played again today with my new stroke. It felt less awkward than yesterday, and while I did miss a truckload of easy shots, I could almost sense that I would miss them beforehand, so I know I wasn't shooting blind.

For those who want to try it out, here's what I added to my routine to ensure my arm drops down naturally and freely: When my feet are set and just before dropping to the table, I fold my shooting arm almost as if I was already in position, let my forearm and the cue dangle ever so slightly to ensure my forearms and wrist are completely loose, tuck my arm in unil the shaft arrives under my head, then finish setting myself up in front of the cue ball. Then I tighten my grip on the butt just a little and start stroking. When I manage to do that okay, which I do more and more, my stroke is dead straight and the shot is really accurate. My stroke speed is sloppy because I my arm feels too loose compared to what I'm used to, but I'll work on that.

Anyway, given the results I got today on long straight shots with that routine, I don't think I want to go back. I'll keep working on it and hope for the best for my upcoming tournament matches. After all, long term results are more important than a few games.

Thanks everybody for your responses and encouragements!
 
I am more on the beginner level and me and my instructor have made the same adjustments to my game. I was able to get any position i wanted, could make lots of great sots but not the long ones. After watching me stroke some it came to be apparent I was inadvertently applying right english to my shots. On close in shots with a low deflection cue it was very hard to pickup since I generated almost no sidespin but after close review my stroke actually had a slight curve. This is magnified over distance across the table which is why you could make the other shots and not the long ball. My game has gone done considerably and I can no longer make the shots that used to be automatic but I am almost ther. Maybe a few more weeks. She tld me my game would drop off for a bit then i would see dramatic improvement. Last session I finished up at 39% win percentage combined 4 teams, 45 total matches. Since the change even though I am missing shots while adjusting I am sitting at 22 out of 25 with most wins being by a big split. If you want to make the change then you will have to make other adjustments to help. I have seriously worked on my defensive play and just cue ball control .

As my teammate says, even if you miss a lot of shots, as long as you keep your opponent from making balls eventually you will win
 
Eyes are not in the right position............

Fastolfe said:
Hello everybody,

My name is Pierre from Belgium. I'm new on the forum. I've played various forms of billiard for 20 years (mainly carom and straight pool) and I'm about to turn my way of playing upside down, so before doing this all the way, I'd like your enlightened opinion.

Here's my problem: I play an honest game, meaning that can average 40-50 in straight rail carom, and I can run 2 or 3 racks without too much trouble in straight pool. However, I can NOT for the life of me pocket more than one out of ten of these long straight shots in pool. This is what limits my game: I inevitably encounter one of these shots, miss and leave the table to my opponent. If he happens to be half decent, he takes over and I might as well forfeit the game.

I've known for years what the problem stems from: when I take my aim very low (with my chin on the cue). my shooting arm is "toed-in" about 15 degrees. This happens whether I play left or right handed. When I'm not so low, it's more or less vertical, but not quite. I believe I picked up the habit when I was a lot more portly than I am today, and body fat prevented me from sticking my arm to my side as much as I needed for my forearm to drop down vertically. As a result, I developed a sort of constant tension in my muscles to have a straight stroke, but on long straight shots that I have to hit hard, it just doesn't cut it.

So yesterday, 50 lbs lighter, I took the plunge and decided to revisit my entire way of playing. After 8 hours at the table with the help of a friend, twisting and contorting, I finally managed to find a good routine to position my shoulder in a way that lets my forearm swing freely, vertically, and without any muscle action whatsoever. And lo, I finally managed to hit those long shots as hard as I could almost always spot on. What's more, since I relaxed my entire swing, any draw, follow or side spin responds wildly, almost uncontrollably.

So, I think I'm on the right track to improve my game. Trouble is, now I now have trouble hitting some simple shots, and I can't control the cue ball anymore: all my references are out of whack, and I've lost my "dead reckoning", i.e. I have to start using the ghost ball and consciously try to evaluate impact points. Not to mention, I've become unable to compensate for throw anymore, and masse shots end up miles from where I intended them to be. Finally, I'm sore everywhere, my back muscles hurt like hell.

So, my question is this: I'm in the middle of the tournament season, and I reckon that, while what I'm doing is ultimately the right thing to do, it may take weeks before my body adjusts and I play correctly without thinking about it anymore. But I have 3 important matches coming up next week. So I'm thinking of sticking to what I know until the end of the season in June, but I'd be sad to know I could do better if I played correctly. Or I could use my new technique on long shots and keep playing crooked for the others, but I'm afraid to end up developing a "hybrid" stance that'll be goofy again. Or I could damn the rest of the season to hell, use the remaining matches as real-life training of my new stroke, and hope that I'll integrate it fast enough to not look like an idiot before June, and not end up with strained back muscles.

What would you do?

By the way, this is a great forum with a lot of interesting people, thank you very much for the service.
Click to expand...

Hi there,

There are 4 different positions that the eyes need to be in for different types of shots. There might be another but I've never found it.

This is mainly what I teach. This is why some types of shots are more difficult for you. The eyes are not in the correct position.

Try moving your head from side to side a little while your down on the shot. You will see what you are looking for. Then you need to trust it.

Have a great day geno.
 
genomachino said:
Hi there,

There are 4 different positions that the eyes need to be in for different types of shots. There might be another but I've never found it.

This is mainly what I teach. This is why some types of shots are more difficult for you. The eyes are not in the correct position.

Try moving your head from side to side a little while your down on the shot. You will see what you are looking for. Then you need to trust it.

Have a great day geno.
Click to expand...

Geno

You DVD has helped me with alignment. Well worth the money. I think it will also help the original poster.
 
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