Responce to Jerry Forsyth Article

[Pushout]

I have and he will tell you that the movies have hurt the sport, and the gambling has.

How can movies that increase the interest in Pool hurt it?? Rooms opened and people started playing. By the way, betting money on a skill game or sport, especially on yourself, is NOT gambling. Betting on a game of chance is gambling.
Face it, the game has an attraction even for non-players because of betting on Pool. Otherwise, the general public could care less and have for about 50 years or more.

 

[cleary]

Strangely enough many important people keep their distance from pool even though they play. I personally tried to get some name connections to tournaments without any luck. This included Jackie Gleason. I wanted to do a tournament along with his golf tournament. I lived near him and we had many mutual friends. Had only one meeting. Not interested. Roger King, a billionaire who loved pool and played often. You may know him as the one who started Oprah and owned Wheel of fortune. Not interested. I tried to get several celebrities to maybe lend their names among them James Caan, Peter Falk, Dion Dimucci (Dion and the Belmonts). Even KC from KC and the Sunshine band who I have known for 35 years, none would come near pool with a ten foot pole. None would let their name be used as a sponsor, IE "The Peter Falk straight pool open", regardless the fact they all play and love the game. There is something they don't want to be associated with, Pool is not a tough sell, it is an impossible sell.

But is it gambling that keeps these people away? I sure do see a lot of celebs playing poker.

 

[Pushout]

On top of that is the sandbagging issue facing many leagues today. I think what every major sport has that pool lacks is a major governing body ACTIVELY POLICING it. Once the public sees an honest attempt to clean house, the fans will come.

The inability of leagues to police the behavior of its members is one of, if not THE biggest problem I see today. The behavior of a great many league players is worse than some of the most dirtbag hustlers I've seen over 45+ years. It has nothing to do with betting on Pool. It has to do with respect for the game and its players. #1. Stop the drinking during league activities. While this would stop some of the nonsense, a great many would drop leagues like a hot rock if they couldn't drink. I have no problem with people drinking while playing, but when some people get out of hand on a regular basis, this is what a great deal of the non-playing public sees.

 

[Island Drive]

I don't mean to be picky, you guys can discuss whatever you wish, but none of these posts is actually a discussion of the editorial. The subject was how pool fans do not support pool sponsors, not about how to present the game or any of this other stuff.

Is your definition of a pool fan, someone who watches the competition or one who actually plays in the competition? I'm thinking you mean the player him/herself.
If you truly want the fans/players to support the sponsor you need to give them a "reason", the World Poker Tour gave many people a "reason" not only to play/attend but to buy the products related to the venue, its dam cool, you can win ALLOT of $$$$$$ an meet and make new friends and be part of SOMETHING where all involved have a common interest.
Jerry PM me

 

[jay helfert]

Strangely enough many important people keep their distance from pool even though they play. I personally tried to get some name connections to tournaments without any luck. This included Jackie Gleason. I wanted to do a tournament along with his golf tournament. I lived near him and we had many mutual friends. Had only one meeting. Not interested. Roger King, a billionaire who loved pool and played often. You may know him as the one who started Oprah and owned Wheel of fortune. Not interested. I tried to get several celebrities to maybe lend their names among them James Caan, Peter Falk, Dion Dimucci (Dion and the Belmonts). Even KC from KC and the Sunshine band who I have known for 35 years, none would come near pool with a ten foot pole. None would let their name be used as a sponsor, IE "The Peter Falk straight pool open", regardless the fact they all play and love the game. There is something they don't want to be associated with, Pool is not a tough sell, it is an impossible sell.

It'a a personal decision whether or not to support the game. A few celebs that have embraced the sport of pool and supported it include: David Brenner - co-owner of the original Amsterdam Billiards in New York; Paul Sorvino - high profile at many New York area tournaments and special events; Jerry Orbach - used to attend the big pool tourneys in the Los Angeles area; Peter Falk - was seen often at Los Angeles pool tourneys in the 70's; Mark Kendall - lead guitar of the band Great White. Active player who comes to many tournaments; Keifer Sutherland - has backed some top players; Tony Stewart - NASCAR star who has supported pro players, been to DCC; JOE ROGAN - Posts on here! Need I say more; Plus many sports personalities who have played in pool events for charity. Paul Pierce won a pool tournament I officiated over early this year.

I'm sure this is only a partial list and other people could add to it. I just wanted to point out that many celebs do like and play pool.

 

[JoeyA]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but..

Pool has and will forever been assosicated with gambling/hustling. Just like cowboys will forever be assosicated with horses and the "wild west". Does that make it a bad thing? Not at all.

The fact is, the ONLY things that have done well in the mainstream media that invovle pool, invovled gambling. (the hustler, the color of money) Someone on here once called pool, "the last gunslingers" and that couldnt be more right on. Hustling is interesting and everyone, pool fan or not, likes to see people win and lose money. That dark, mystrious pool hustler is a very well known part american cultrue. Rather than shun it, embrase it. The ones who have, and did it right, did well.

Cleary,

Don't get me wrong. I like gambling just like the rest of the gamblers but it is strictly for selfish reasons, like all of the other gamblers.

But who has embraced hustling and done it right and did well with it?

The only hustlers I know have barely gotten through life and most of the time, they have gotten by through the kindness and generosity of others, most often family.

I'm curious to know who you think has hustled pool and made a good living at it. For every one you could possibly name (and please don't, as I really don't want you or anyone else to embarass anyone whom you might think made a good living hustling pool) I could name a dozen others who never got a chance to build a nest egg that they could retire on. Hell, most of the hustlers have had enormous trouble just keeping a roof over their heads. It's the embarassing truth about hustling pool. It's worse than playing pool tournaments for a living. I wish it weren't so but it is.

The life of a pool player is like that of a fox; chicken today, feathers tomorrow.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[rossaroni]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but..

Pool has and will forever been assosicated with gambling/hustling. Just like cowboys will forever be assosicated with horses and the "wild west". Does that make it a bad thing? Not at all.

The fact is, the ONLY things that have done well in the mainstream media that invovle pool, invovled gambling. (the hustler, the color of money) Someone on here once called pool, "the last gunslingers" and that couldnt be more right on. Hustling is interesting and everyone, pool fan or not, likes to see people win and lose money. That dark, mystrious pool hustler is a very well known part american cultrue. Rather than shun it, embrase it. The ones who have, and did it right, did well.

There has been a lot of good responses, but I think this is one of the better ones. I also believe that it will be very hard, if not next to impossible, to ever take away the gambling/ustling image associated with pool. We may not see it often, since we are pool players, but a lot of people think that pool and pool halls are filled with nothing but negativity and bad people.
Just the other day, a friend of mine mentioned that his mom didn't want him to hang out at pool halls, because of all the drugs, hookers, gambling, etc. If people want to kid themselves and act like there is not a negative stigma associated with pool, just think of most people's reaction when they find out you play pool. I don't know about everyone else, but they don't ask me about leagues and tournaments and junior pool programs. They say stuff about gambling, hustling, and being a pool shark.

 

[rossaroni]

You know that the dart, chess, badminton, ping pong forums are probably asking the same questions about their sport(games to some). I watched pool on tv the other day and was thinking about the average joe watching it. To tell you the truth, I could understand why pool doesn't get the rating. If I was not a pool player, I don't think I would be watching. I think doing a pool 'Pros vs. Joes' would be good for the sport and funny. So many people do not realize just how good the pros play. Everyone has an uncle who was a pool shark and could beat anyone!

 

[DrMikeUSN]

There has been a lot of good responses, but I think this is one of the better ones. I also believe that it will be very hard, if not next to impossible, to ever take away the gambling/ustling image associated with pool. We may not see it often, since we are pool players, but a lot of people think that pool and pool halls are filled with nothing but negativity and bad people.
Just the other day, a friend of mine mentioned that his mom didn't want him to hang out at pool halls, because of all the drugs, hookers, gambling, etc. If people want to kid themselves and act like there is not a negative stigma associated with pool, just think of most people's reaction when they find out you play pool. I don't know about everyone else, but they don't ask me about leagues and tournaments and junior pool programs. They say stuff about gambling, hustling, and being a pool shark.

rossaroni is right. People have that mis-conception about what the sport is like, and what is really in a pool hall. I have visited MANY all over the east cost over the last few months, and have yet to see "personally" drugs, or hookers. Gambling YES! lol...

THIS IS WHY I have STRESSED that the pros have to give back o the community. Lets start with one community and work outwards. I spoke to a well known pro today about this post, he called me. After the World 10 ball, we are going to do a book reading I am going to set up, get a local news paper to make note of it, and let's start there.

Details will follow in the comming weeks. Hopefully, in the form of an actual news paper article about the postive side of pool, and our professionals.

Or maybe I am wrong, MAYBE I will get the news papers to write an article about someone gambling for 9 hours and loosing $2,000. Hmmm, which will show a more positive light?

How about this, the book reading is done 1 week before a tournament, and include that this pro will be playing in such and such tournament in two weeks. Maybe 1 happy parent, will show up, and see the positive sides to some of our pros? Maybe not, but it is still soemthing positive. And it isn't going to be my tournament, I am going to help promote anouther North East Tour, during this. Love of the game.

 

[DrMikeUSN]

Positive.

Tom, Yes I am trying to get more stuff scheduled, I am trying this minute to schedule a table to be brought in to a middle school here in Central New York and bring a pro in to show some tick shots and teach the kids about maintaining a positive attitude.

I m e-mailing the Board of Directors to get this done.

 

[jdlough]

I think the main reason why pool is losing pace is that there are fewer bars or pools rooms to go to. (I know this is a chicken and egg thing - pool rooms close because it's less popular - it's less popular because there's no pool rooms)

I think a lot of the reason pool is not so popular is due to side effects of U.S. Government policies.

A lot of pool rooms or bars w/pool close because they are taxed outta it. They are taxed by the size of their establishment, and tables take up room. So, they close, or lose the tables to make room for eating tables. Same thing happened with darts. There used to be vast darts leagues. Now gone. Losing a dart board opens up room for 2 tables. Losing a pool table opens up even more. These places can no longer be a "Cheers" place, where everybody knows your name. They now have to look at how much money they're bringing in per square foot, and how quick is their turnover. So all the private fun pool and darts places are competing with the TGIF-type franchises, who have this down to a science.

My next issue (which I can rant upon for days - but won't) is the anti-smoking laws. How can you have a successful pool room that doesn't allow smoking?

In MD, the new laws say no smoking anywhere. So, all the pool bars sold their tables and turned into TGIF-type places.

I just went to the U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships in Chesapeake VA. I found out that for some reason, Pool rooms are exempt from this anti-smoking rule in Virginia.
I found that out at the 9 Ball Championship hoster Barry Behrman's own pool room, Q-Masters. That place is heaven. It is huge - I couldn't even count all the tables. AND it allows smoking. (Is is NOT some HUSTLER smoke-filled dungeon. It's well-ventilated, classy, great food, and my dream place to go to)

The wife and I go to the 9 Ball Championships every year, to watch the pool. Now that we've found Q-Masters, we plan to make weekend trips to Chesapeake VA, JUST to hang out at Barry's Q-Masters, to play pool and smoke, in one of the last places I can still feel free.

 

[Philthepockets]

You may find it surprising but during snookers heyday (the 80's) the demographic for television viewers put the middle aged housewife as number 1, hours of daytime coverage probably played a part here but
even now if you look at the audience at the worlds for example there are many older women.
The reason for this was that the game had recognizable characters that became household names. It also had some rivalries but the most important element it had was drama. They loved the tension of the tit for tat safety play, the triumph of the big breaks and the late night final frame finishes, more akin to jousting than billiards.
The game was not so much presented as a sport but more like a soap opera.
Just some food for thought.....

 

[Pushout]

My next issue (which I can rant upon for days - but won't) is the anti-smoking laws. How can you have a successful pool room that doesn't allow smoking?

They do it in New York. I've heard for years that you can't do it without alcohol. But they did it in New York for years and years.

 

[Nostroke]

My next issue (which I can rant upon for days - but won't) is the anti-smoking laws. How can you have a successful pool room that doesn't allow smoking?

They do it in New York.

And the rent is only 50K a month. (and im serious)

 

[jdlough]

My next issue (which I can rant upon for days - but won't) is the anti-smoking laws. How can you have a successful pool room that doesn't allow smoking?

They do it in New York. I've heard for years that you can't do it without alcohol. But they did it in New York for years and years.

Ok, fine. If you have 10 million people in 100 block radius, it IS possible to have a successful pool room without smoking.

 

[cleary]

Cleary,

Don't get me wrong. I like gambling just like the rest of the gamblers but it is strictly for selfish reasons, like all of the other gamblers.

But who has embraced hustling and done it right and did well with it?

The only hustlers I know have barely gotten through life and most of the time, they have gotten by through the kindness and generosity of others, most often family.

I'm curious to know who you think has hustled pool and made a good living at it. For every one you could possibly name (and please don't, as I really don't want you or anyone else to embarass anyone whom you might think made a good living hustling pool) I could name a dozen others who never got a chance to build a nest egg that they could retire on. Hell, most of the hustlers have had enormous trouble just keeping a roof over their heads. It's the embarassing truth about hustling pool. It's worse than playing pool tournaments for a living. I wish it weren't so but it is.

The life of a pool player is like that of a fox; chicken today, feathers tomorrow.

Thanks,
JoeyA

Joey, I think you are misinterpreting what Im saying. Im not talking about hustlers themselves, but pool as a whole. The topic was that gambling/hustlers tarnish our image to the mainstream, but I think its the opposite. Maybe read through my post again?

 

[Nostroke]

Ok, fine. If you have 10 million people in 100 block radius, it IS possible to have a successful pool room without smoking.

If the room is in a border town and the other guys allow smoking, you are going to be in trouble. Otherwise 95% will return and you will create more customers among the great majority of americans who do not smoke. More than enough to make up for the loss of 5%*.



*all figures are made up by myself.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey, I think you are misinterpreting what Im saying. Im not talking about hustlers themselves, but pool as a whole. The topic was that gambling/hustlers tarnish our image to the mainstream, but I think its the opposite. Maybe read through my post again?

I thought you were talking about hustling in general and that it was a good thing for pool.

I was concentrating on your statement below.

"That dark, mystrious pool hustler is a very well known part american cultrue. Rather than shun it, embrase it. The ones who have, and did it right, did well."

It might be good for the guys who like the gambling rush or who are capable of winning a little more often than they lose. There are few business people investing money into pool and "doing well".

Who do you think has embraced hustling or the hustler and "done well?"
-------------------------------------------------

Personally, I like gambling amongst the gamblers, hustling amongst the hustlers but doubt if hustling or hustlers are viewed as attractive to the masses.

Without the masses behind pocket billiards, it will stay a sub-culture with pool players fighting for all they are worth just to make ends meet.

Earl reportedly said something like, "Play pool but stay in school". He hit that one perfect.

And maybe Macguy is right. Maybe this is all there is to it.
JoeyA

 

[cleary]

Who do you think has embraced hustling or the hustler and "done well?"

Martin Scorsese, Robert Rossen, Paul Newman, Walter Tevis, L. John Wertheim. All of which took a chance on the "hustler" and did well.

My whole point is saying that the gambling aspect of pool is not holding pool back. The people trying to take gambling out of pool holds it back. Trying to be something you're not, never works. Do you think "the Huster" or "the Color of Money" would have done so well if Fast Eddie was playing in speed pool tournaments? Or jumping cueballs into a boot? Or playing "Bonus Ball"? Of course not, they did well for exactly the point I'm making. People live vicariously though what they can't be or can't do. People like seeing skaters fall, quarterbacks getting sacked and people losing money. There was a "poker boom" and not a "go fish boom" for a reason. Cash Rules Everything Around Me. Dolla dalla bills, ya'll! I would bet the majority of people on this site got into pool because of the allure of gambling or hustling.

 

[Pushout]

Ok, fine. If you have 10 million people in 100 block radius, it IS possible to have a successful pool room without smoking.

I'm not talking the city, I mean the state. IIRC, Florida and California also.