Bad rolls - what's your definition?

What happened in the OP is a bad shot not a bad roll.

A bad roll occurs when an unexpected event occurs on an otherwise good shot. These things come in two levels, one that could have been predicted, and those that almost assuredly could not be predicted.

In the OP, the opponents OB was surely visible at that end of the table when the 3-rail bank was attempted. Not seeing it and not accomodating where it was is bad judgement not a bad roll.

Now, if the opponents OB was up table before the shot, and something unpredictable about the shot rolled it down table and the CB ended up behinid it, then it is a bad roll situation.
 
Eric. said:
Bad rolls? I can usually tell if they are fresh or not....

I think your friend needs to learn better position routes. I'm guessing that the routes he takes leaves a potential for trouble, unless he hits it perfect. Like life, sometimes you create your own luck, both good and bad.


Eric
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You beat me to what I think. Bad rolls usualy mean that something is wrong with the way you are playing. It is the same table for the other player so the balls will roll the same.
 
I would classify "bad rolls" as those in which you have little or no control over. Although most would be classified as table or debris problems, one still cannot blame anything but themselves for the situation.

I lost this past Tuesday, to a player that I was clearly better than, due to what he described "as the worst luck he'd seen in 35 years of pool". In 4 consecutive games I caught a side pocket nipple, and or/had an extreme angle side pocket scratch, all on fairly simple one or two rail leaves. No crazy spins, just simply follow shots, a couple with subtle side english.

I was shooting and getting position very well, and every one of those shots was going to end up where I had intended them to be, would they not have caught part of the side pocket.

I don't blame the roll, I blame the shooter and shot. Bad Luck? Nope.

I do believe in life you can put yourself in position to be lucky, or unlucky, but you will always have some degree of control over your destiny in anything.
 
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Bad rolls on the break

The break is the only shot that I can accept that I might have gotten a bad roll on. Often even bad results of a break aren't a bad roll but if I break and park the cue ball or pull it back to the head rail and it still gets knocked around and scratches I have to admit that nobody is good enough to control the path of every ball in the rack every time.

After that, any roll I get from my shot be it equipment enhanced or not is my doing. I can say that my opponent misses and I get a bad roll sometimes but I also acknowledge that his particular playing style might be one that lends itself to a lot of out of control rolls, good or bad, so the bad leaves for me are very much a part of his game and have to be factored in when playing him.

The vast majority of the time bad rolls don't exist for me even on the break. As others have already mentioned, accepting that bad rolls exist releases responsibility from yourself. I prefer to take responsibility for everything that happens at the table during my inning.

Hu
 
I think bad rolls are real but at the same time a state of mind.

Good state of mind they don't seem to mind much; bad state they work against you.

What about good rolls? I don't hear much said about good rolls; seems people just stand there stunned and say "I meant to do that".

Do good rolls for your opponent count as a bad roll for you or is that a different category?
 
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Rotarded said:
I would classify "bad rolls" as those in which you have little or no control over. Although most would be classified as table or debris problems, one still cannot blame anything but themselves for the situation.

I lost this past Tuesday, to a player that I was clearly better than, due to what he described "as the worst luck he'd seen in 35 years of pool". In 4 consecutive games I caught a side pocket nipple, and or/had an extreme angle side pocket scratch, all on fairly simple one or two rail leaves. No crazy spins, just simply follow shots, a couple with subtle side english.

I was shooting and getting position very well, and every one of those shots was going to end up where I had intended them to be, would they not have caught part of the side pocket.

I don't blame the roll, I blame the shooter and shot. Bad Luck? Nope.

I do believe in life you can put yourself in position to be lucky, or unlucky, but you will always have some degree of control over your destiny in anything.
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Yes i've had something similar to this happen, except the side pocket was in question instead.

For some odd reason, in this particular match anytime I got even close to the side pocket closest to the window.. i scratched.... 6 times within a 20 minute span in some of the most unimaginable ways you could possibly dream up.

I'm talking about having a non object ball carom off 3 other balls and meet the cue ball at the exact spot on the table to knock it in.. amazing I still won. Turns out it all came back in the end when the player had to get the bridge out on the game winning ball and miscued giving me ball in hand :eek:
 
Your buddy is playing bad shots.

The top players know of the inherant risks of going 3 rails and going behind a ball or scratching, they account for those things and shoot so that the chance of hooking themselves or scratching wont happen.

Alot of lower level players playing 3 rail shape to the short rails scratch in the corner FAR too often, if you watch the pro's they never hit the 3rd rail inside of a diamond, they take the scartch clean out of the equation. If there is a ball down there they will alter the angle and take it out of play, they might aim to hit that ball, your buddy probably just flails away att he 3 rail shape and "hope things work out". Your buddy is making shots that should be about skill INTO luck, he is lucky if he actually GETS the shape since he is leaving it all up to chance. I am sure when things are rolling his way he feels full of skill, and when things go south he is "unlucky", but the fact is the guy is just bad and sometimes he catches some cards to win from behind and other times he does not.
 
A friend was practicing at Chris's one day and I asked him in passing, "Are they going where you aim them?". "Yes," he said, "unfortunately."

pj
chgo
 
Brian in VA said:
One of the players on my 8 Ball team (BCA league) and I were talking about bad rolls last night. His contention is that he gets more than his share of bad rolls and it's very frustrating to him.

I started thinking about this and wondered what constitutes a bad roll?

For example, I can understand that equipment can cause a bad roll; I've had a ball that I slow rolled, roll off line. I can understand that random occurrences can cause bad rolls; I break and squat the rock in the middle of the table and a ball kisses it into a pocket for a scratch. Those are both bad rolls and we all get our share of them.

My teammate's contention is that sending a ball 3 rails for position and having it end up behind his opponent's only ball is a bad roll. Or that having a ball roll too far and scratching is a bad roll.

I contend that those are bad shots, that you're supposed to keep control of as many of those things as you can; that's the art and science of this game, minimizing your mistakes or chances for mistakes at all times. Perhaps if he gets more than his share, or perceives that he gets more than his share, he's taking the wrong pattern for his runout and not controlling the opportunities for error as a result.

I'm not looking to decide who's right and who's wrong on this, by the way. We all have different ways of looking at a rack and running it differently based on what kinds of shots we prefer.

I'd like to know how everyone else characterizes a bad roll. And are there good rolls, too? And what constitutes those?

Brian in VA - believes he gets his share of both and is okay with that.
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If your playing on a good table with good balls there is no such thing as a bad roll only a bad stroke.

Now on a bar box that you can slow roll a ball down the rail and it just rolls off line to miss the pocket then that's a bad roll.

Even on a perfect table one can think there getting a bad roll if they are throwing the object ball and don't know there doing it.

In case you don't know throwing the ball means you are slightly curving it into the pocket instead of shooting straight so you need to adjust your aim for that.
 
James 2003:
In case you don't know throwing the ball means you are slightly curving it into the pocket instead of shooting straight so you need to adjust your aim for that.
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Maybe you meant it this way, but...

Object balls don't curve. "Throwing" an object ball means making it go in a straight line, as usual, but at a slight angle from the center-to-center line where it would go without throw.

pj
chgo
 
I think that thinking about bad rolls takes away from your game. I try to think in these line of thought. For ever action there is a equal and opposite reaction...cause and effect... (I sound like that French Guy in the movie the Matrix..haha)

I shot a shot and have the idea and hopes that the object ball goes in and the cue ball goes where i want it to... If that does not happen I dont think of it as a bad roll, I try and think of it as an opportunity to become creative. The game of poll becomes very stagnent in my opinion if the player is always perfect on a shot , always has the right angle to get on the next ball... Now im not knocking that perfection..hell i wish i had it...but its that shot that you let get away from you and the cue ball goes two rails and your object ball is a ball distance away from the rail, middle of the table and the cue ball is all the way up table and you make that impossible thin cut and get out...that is pool..and if you just use what others call a bad roll as a chance to think out of the box..you will see the game anew and will develp shots and skills that other only dream about. thats my opinion
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe you meant it this way, but...

Object balls don't curve. "Throwing" an object ball means making it go in a straight line, as usual, but at a slight angle from the center-to-center line where it would go without throw.

pj
chgo
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Patrick:

Not to be a nit, but while your definition of "throwing" an object ball is quite true, one *can* curve an object ball. It's done in bank pool, and it's called a "bending bank." Freddy the Beard demonstrates a very famous Eddie Taylor bank in his DVD, "Banks That Don't Go But Do." Coming from the Windy City -- "a" bank pool capital -- I'm surprised you don't know that. <elbow nudge> <elbow nudge> :D

Just kidding in that last sentence, but object balls *can* be made to curve, if they're hit into the cushion a certain way to impart masse-style spin.

-Sean
 
id say a bad roll is anytime your in a tuff spot and you have to turn the cueball loose while making your shot....you make a good shot pocketing the ball but the cueball bumps something diffent than you expected and locks up against another ball/sticks to the rail/scratches, even strait in shape wich sucks........ these things happen alot in 8ball on 7 footers when your trying to run out with 8 other balls in the way.....the definition of a good roll would be you make the same shot bump a few balls and get great shape.
 
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Thanks to all for the opinions!

I agree with the majority here which said that the shooter causes the bad rolls to occur due to poor shot selection, poor speed control or failure to plan every aspect of the shot. I believe that a bad roll can occur due to randomness (the break shot in 8 or 9 ball, for example) although lots of superior straight pool players claim to be planning the movement of as many balls as possible when playing a secondary break shot.

I also agree with those of you that mentioned the opinion that allowing these "bad rolls" to affect your behavior and play is detrimental to one's game (and sanity for that matter!).

Are my opinions correct? Not necessarily. That's just another reason why I love this game - plenty of gray areas. It's not always black and white, is it?

I wish you all good rolls!

Brian in VA
 
My 2 cents

If your opponent is shooting with the intention to continue at the table but misses leaving you hooked - bad roll

If you break, make a ball, squat the cueball have shape on the next ball and then the cue ball gets kicked in for a scratch - bad roll

If you are playing a simple fairly straight shot and need to follow 8 - 20 inches to get shape (a large area) and the object ball skid and misses - bad roll

If you are playing a simple fairly straight shot and need to follow 8 - 20 inches to get shape (a large area) and you make the ball but the cue ball climbs up the object ball and rolls forward 2" leaving you hooked - bad roll

Any time you slow roll a shot and it contacts debris and misses - borderline bad roll. It has a probability before you shot it and you missed seeing the debris.

Good rolls are too numerous to try and define. But I would generally classify them as getting away with what should have been a miss.

Paul
 
Rolls

When you shoot a shot and hook yourself it's not a bad roll to me. You had control and you made the ball end up where you got hooked. I call that a bad shot.

If you break and the cue ball gets kissed in a pocket I call that a bad roll.

There are lots of opinions on this subject and these are just a couple examples of mine.

James
 
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