Can you overcut an object ball frozen to the rail?

Samiel

Samiel

Sea Player
Silver Member
If an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you overcut it and miss the pocket completely? I figure you can overcut it a little by bending the rail slightly before contact, but is that overcut enough to miss the pocket by?

Another way of asking this is, when an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you miss the shot by not driving the object ball into the rail? I figure you can always miss the shot by undercutting the object ball and driving it into the rail, but overcutting would cause the object ball to not hit the rail.

My thought is that you should always be able to make the object ball if you never undercut it.
 
Yes:

Consider the case where the ball is not on the rail and you use sidespin to throw the ball. One should be able to throw an OB about 1 diamond from 4-5 diamonds away from a pocket.

Thus, if you use the roll the side-spin-less CB down the same line that would make perfect contact and roll the OB right down the rail, but use a lot of side-spin, that side-spin can drive the OB either into the rail and move it 1 full diamond off the pocket, or it can drive the OB about 1 diamond away without having it touch the rail whatsoever.

In both cases, the CB to OB impact was perfectly coordinated so that the CB hits the OB and the rail simultaneously of a fraction of a millisecond earlier on the rail.
 
Samiel said:
If an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you overcut it and miss the pocket completely? I figure you can overcut it a little by bending the rail slightly before contact, but is that overcut enough to miss the pocket by?

Another way of asking this is, when an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you miss the shot by not driving the object ball into the rail? I figure you can always miss the shot by undercutting the object ball and driving it into the rail, but overcutting would cause the object ball to not hit the rail.

My thought is that you should always be able to make the object ball if you never undercut it.
Click to expand...

I think I understand what you're asking here so here is my answer. Yes, you can miss it. But it won't be from over cutting it though. If the OB is touching the rail you can't cut it any further than the rail allows. Compressing the CB into the cushion first, yes, you could hit a contact point on the ball behind the rail and miss it. But in my opinion, you're going to miss it because of the CB throwing/pushing the OB away from the rail because of the friction between the balls.

If you're just having trouble pocketing those types of shots here's the answer. Hit the cushion about a credit card's thickness before contacting the OB. If you hit ball first on that type of shot you're most likely going to drive the OB into the rail slightly and miss it. You can get away with a ball first hit if the distance to the pocket isn't very far, but if you're wanting to run it down the length of the table rail first is the way to shoot it.
MULLY
 
I may have misread your post, but I think the OP was asking if you can over CUT the OB when it is frozen. I wouldn't consider shooting the CB and OB straight down the rail cutting it. Say 45 degrees for CB to OB. Ideally I'd think one would make contact with ball and rail at same time. I see a lot of people try to juice it with hard english and hit the rail first which in effect changes the cut approach by ninety degrees. Then depending on how far the ball is from the hole, I'd say you can 'over cut' it.

MitchAlsup said:
Yes:

Consider the case where the ball is not on the rail and you use sidespin to throw the ball. One should be able to throw an OB about 1 diamond from 4-5 diamonds away from a pocket.

Thus, if you use the roll the side-spin-less CB down the same line that would make perfect contact and roll the OB right down the rail, but use a lot of side-spin, that side-spin can drive the OB either into the rail and move it 1 full diamond off the pocket, or it can drive the OB about 1 diamond away without having it touch the rail whatsoever.

In both cases, the CB to OB impact was perfectly coordinated so that the CB hits the OB and the rail simultaneously of a fraction of a millisecond earlier on the rail.
Click to expand...
 
Samiel said:
If an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you overcut it and miss the pocket completely? I figure you can overcut it a little by bending the rail slightly before contact, but is that overcut enough to miss the pocket by?

Another way of asking this is, when an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you miss the shot by not driving the object ball into the rail? I figure you can always miss the shot by undercutting the object ball and driving it into the rail, but overcutting would cause the object ball to not hit the rail.

My thought is that you should always be able to make the object ball if you never undercut it.
Click to expand...

I would think you could overcut it enough to miss by compressing the rail, especially with outside english to throw it further away from the rail.

Also, there are two ways to "undercut" the ball (drive the OB into the rail); one is by just hitting the ball too thick, and the other is by hitting the rail too far way from the OB, so that the CB rebounds away from the rail and then cuts the OB into the rail. So "never undercutting" the ball means hitting it perfect (or close to it) every time, since there's only a small margin between one kind of undercut and the other kind.

-Andrew
 
Can it be done? I would have to say yes.. it can be done. To do what you're suggesting, you would have to hit the cue ball fairly hard, to dig into the rail enough to over cut the ball, but again, it can be done.

If you over cut it, but hit it softer, the cue ball will end up kicking (coming off the rail, and then hitting the OB) the OB back into the rail, as if you had undercut the ball.

However.. the way the CB reacts will tell you what happened....
 
Yes, you can overcut it, and by quite a bit. If the cut angle is steep enough and you hit the CB hard enough, you can compress the rail as much as 1/2 inch, maybe more. On more typical shots you'll compress the rail maybe 1/4 inch. It only takes a fraction of that to miss the pocket, even if the OB is pretty close to it.

Collision-induced throw (CIT) will compensate for some of the overcut, but not all, and remember that the CB doesn't travel in straight line as it compresses the rail but actually curves toward the OB, which can reduce the amount of CIT.

Then there's the second half of the event, when the rail is uncompressing. You can actually overcut the OB while the CB is kicking in the opposite direction - then you'll miss the pocket by a lot.

Of course, without a high speed camera it's just about impossible to tell exactly what happened, except whether the rail or the ball was hit first (by how the CB rebounds).

pj
chgo
 
can you overcut it???? NO....

You can't overcut it....it's impossible, you can miss it and compress into the rail, but then you're kicking it out from the rail and not cutting it at all....

Jaden
 
I would tend to agree with all those saying yes. Try shooting from a nearly straight angle at a ball on the rail and try to over cut it using outside english. You can absolutely bring that ball off the rail, even while hitting it first. It can be done, and frequently happens in matches. For those questioning the physics of this shot, remember one thing; the object ball is substantially taller than the rail and the midpoint (contact point) of the object ball is over one inch off the rail. The only part of the object ball touching the rail is the very edge. Thus you can cut it off the rail with ease.
 
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Jaden said:
You can't overcut it....it's impossible, you can miss it and compress into the rail, but then you're kicking it out from the rail and not cutting it at all....

Jaden
Click to expand...

I agree.. If you hit that much rail first you just plain missed and the CB kicks the OB back out away from the rail as it runs down the table.
 
nah!!

Methinks the question was can the frozen OB be OVERCUT. Not THROWN
with english. IMHFO ( not normally worth a lot) the frozen OB cannot be OVERCUT. (except by magic).:eek:
 
Samiel said:
...My thought is that you should always be able to make the object ball if you never undercut it.
Click to expand...
I don't see how? The cueball is in contact with a cushion approximately 30X longer (~6 millisecs) than with an object ball (~1/5'th millisec). Once it initiates contact with the cushion, subsequent impact with the OB can occur anytime during this period, depending on where the shooter aimed, of course.

Patrick pointed out that the cushion can be compressed up to about one-half inch. If OB impact occurs at this depth, the CB-OB line of centers would point nearly 13 degrees away from a line parallel to the rail. If it occurs at a more modest one-quarter inch of compression, the CB-OB line would still be a fairly unforgiving 6.4 degrees from parallel. Generally speaking, throw is not going to provide anywhere near enough compensation at these angles.

So my vote is yes, you can overcut it, and by quite a bit. But, as some posters have also pointed out, even more overcut will become less effective overcut (or even a perfect cut or undercut) when CB-OB impact takes place while the CB is on its way out.

Dr. Dave has several high speed videos of all of these types of shots.

Jim
 
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Jaden said:
You can't overcut it....it's impossible, you can miss it and compress into the rail, but then you're kicking it out from the rail and not cutting it at all....

Jaden
Click to expand...

You seem to assume that the CB can only hit the OB after the rail begins to uncompress, not while it's compressing. Why?

Here's Dr. Dave's high-speed video of a rail-frozen cut shot. It either shows an overcut or shows that it's definitely possible. I estimate the amount of rail compression is about 3/8 inch, way more than enough to overcut the OB out of the pocket.

Here's a drawing showing a CB contacting an OB just before the rail begins to uncompress, at a depth of 3/8":

railfrozen overcut.jpg

The curved red line shows the CB's path as the rail compresses and uncompresses. The straight red line shows the OB's path if the CB contacts it at maximum compression (just before the cushion begins to uncompress, while the CB is momentarily traveling parallel with the rail). The pocket is 5" wide and about 14" away (I put a diamond on the cushion for reference) - this much of an overcut would miss that pocket (the OB would hit the pocket's point).

pj
chgo
 
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clarity please.

:)
Samiel said:
If an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you overcut it and miss the pocket completely? I figure you can overcut it a little by bending the rail slightly before contact, but is that overcut enough to miss the pocket by?

Another way of asking this is, when an object ball is frozen to the rail, can you miss the shot by not driving the object ball into the rail? I figure you can always miss the shot by undercutting the object ball and driving it into the rail, but overcutting would cause the object ball to not hit the rail.

My thought is that you should always be able to make the object ball if you never undercut it.
Click to expand...

If the question is,"Is it possible to overcut a ball frozen to the rail?,then this is a good thread.:)If you really meant,"can you ",then this should be a
poll!:confused:
 
sure it can hit it while it's compressing.....

Patrick Johnson said:
You seem to assume that the CB can only hit the OB after the rail begins to uncompress, not while it's compressing. Why?

Take a look at this high-speed video of a rail-frozen cut shot. It either shows an overcut or shows that it's definitely possible. I estimate the amount of rail compression is about 3/8 inch, way more than enough to overcut the OB out of the pocket.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

of course it can....

to hit it while it's compressing would still make the ball travel parallel to the rail...

Only if it rebounds can it hit it deeper than the rail and cause it to come away from the rail....

in other words it would have to double kiss the ball.
Jaden
 
Jaden:
to hit it while it's compressing would still make the ball travel parallel to the rail...
Click to expand...

Take a look at my drawing (added to my post above) and explain to me how the OB could travel parallel to the rail if hit on the contact point shown.

Only if it rebounds can it hit it deeper than the rail and cause it to come away from the rail....
Click to expand...

The CB can easily hit the OB while the cushion is compressing, and if it does it must hit the OB closer to the rail than 1/2 ball. If it hits the OB closer to the rail than 1/2 ball then the OB must cut away from the rail unless collision-induced throw is as great as the cut angle. The cut angle in the drawing is almost 10 degrees, about twice the maximum angle of throw.

Maybe it's difficult to visualize - that's why I added the drawing.

pj
chgo
 
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drawing schmawing

Patrick Johnson said:
Take a look at my drawing (added to my post above) and explain to me how the OB could travel parallel to the rail if hit on the contact point shown.



The CB can easily hit the OB while the cushion is compressing, and if it does it must hit the OB closer to the rail than 1/2 ball. If it hits the OB closer to the rail than 1/2 ball then the OB must cut away from the rail unless collision-induced throw is as great as the cut angle. The cut angle in the drawing is almost 10 degrees, about twice the maximum angle of throw.

Maybe it's difficult to visualize - that's why I added the drawing.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Jaden is right. The drawing represents what I referred to earlier as ,
" Magic," Some might use another term. Without considering english,
if the CB hits the OB on a shared plain (tangent line) at a point perpendicular to the cushion, compression will not have taken place yet. The ball will be made.
If the CB starts compressing the cushion before striking the CB there will not only be no over cut but will rebound of the rail into the OB pushing the OB into the rail mimicking the same action response as an undercut.
In other words, what appears to be an overcut is actually the OB rebounding off the cushion. There, that should settle that.:rolleyes:
 
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