Harmonics/Sympathetic Vibration....or whatever

danquixote

DanQuixote
Silver Member
I am not now nor do I intend to in the future......build cues. I have worked in tool production .....ie dental tools. I also remember some various harmonics studys on wood by musicial instrument makers......soooooo my question is thus......Has any sort of difinitive study been done on cue harmonics.....is it all protected info developed by individual manufacturers....has the effect of harmoincs been dismissed as unapplicable to cue making because it is so much of an individual feel sort of thing........just curious about this......and I probably managed to demonstrate just how little knowledge I have of cue making:grin:
 
hmmm. i think we all study our cues as if they were musical instraments mostly all of us have a method of checking the wood. like bouncing the shaft blank on a concrete floor. also when i sued le pros i would drop them onto a table and listen to them.
 
I am not now nor do I intend to in the future......build cues. I have worked in tool production .....ie dental tools. I also remember some various harmonics studys on wood by musicial instrument makers......soooooo my question is thus......Has any sort of difinitive study been done on cue harmonics.....is it all protected info developed by individual manufacturers....has the effect of harmoincs been dismissed as unapplicable to cue making because it is so much of an individual feel sort of thing........just curious about this......and I probably managed to demonstrate just how little knowledge I have of cue making:grin:
I am not a cuemaker either, but I don't think harmonics are a consideration as the cueing instrument does not have any strings or holes in which to make it vibrate and produce a musical note. Some cues due emit different pitches after they strike a cueball, but that is due to the materials. I think the main consideration in cuemaking is the stability of the wood and the resins used to bond the pieces together.
 
I am not a cuemaker either, but I don't think harmonics are a consideration as the cueing instrument does not have any strings or holes in which to make it vibrate and produce a musical note. Some cues due emit different pitches after they strike a cueball, but that is due to the materials. I think the main consideration in cuemaking is the stability of the wood and the resins used to bond the pieces together.

bull too, harmonics work off the natural characteristics in the wood, built in compression factors, density, grain orientation etc...a wood with certain harmonics will not play the same as other wood that is built into the same exact tapered cue.

Harmonics are just vibration, vibration is just a compression wave you feel when you strike the cue ball with the tip. THere are nodal points (like the sweet spot where no vibration is present) to that vibration, the higher to the end of the cue they are located the less deflection it will have, and the stiffer the play.

Taken this into account the harmonics of certain woods can affect the style of taper your going to put on the cue....it all ties in together.
 
Hi,

Every piece of wood is different when graphed on an oscilloscope with frequencies transduced thru the rod. No rhyme or reason at a precise profile.
Yes, ebony will be more like other pieces of ebony ect. but nature has its way in this area.

Rick G.
 
I am not a cuemaker nor am I any more knowledgeable than the average enthusiast, however, the quoted poster is both and someone for whom I have a great deal of respect for. I thought I would share with you two of his posts that I remember reading about the subject.




"Just funky wood. Not all shafts are created equal. This is exactly the reason why I tone test my shafts before choosing them for a cue. There's a magic window of tone where the cue seems to just play awesome, pinnacle. I match the shaft & butt according to tone so to fit the cue into this window of harmonics. I do this by bouncing the components on the concrete floor, and by bouncing them in my hand. Two things i'm listening for is pitch & resonation, basically how pingy the wood is & how long it holds the pingy tone, kinda like a tuning fork. It all sounds friggin nuts I know. But I believe in the method so much that if I ever lose my hearing i'll quit building cues"

"Sound of hit is important to me. The sound is a direct relation to tone, which is the manner in which the cue vibrates & transfers energy. Lots of folks have called me whacky & disagreed with my theory of sound, but it never bothered me. To me, a cue should have a solid "ring" sound upon contacting the cueball. That indicates to me that I put the cue together solid with no voids or weak areas, and except for the deflective displacement of the cue flexing & compressing upon impact, I know the cueball is assuming all the power of my stroke. Not only do I have my sight sense to utilize, but now I have my sense of feel & hearing to use as well. Using three senses to play instead one is an advantage for me. Again, some people think i'm whacky for feeling this way. But most top tier builders agree & feel exactly the same. In fact, putting a cue together solidly with good materials makes it nearly impossible to avoid that sound. It's a byproduct of good construction."
 
.... THere are nodal points (like the sweet spot where no vibration is present) to that vibration, the higher to the end of the cue they are located the less deflection it will have, and the stiffer the play.

Cool. Have you seen any studies on this ? I'd love to see them.

Dave
 
Cool. Have you seen any studies on this ? I'd love to see them.

Dave

first place that comes to mind is the black boar website, go look up nodal points in wiki maybe.

its where a standing wave meets an incoming wave thus getting 0.

the anti node is going to have the most vibration.
 
cue/shaft frequency

I am not now nor do I intend to in the future......build cues. I have worked in tool production .....ie dental tools. I also remember some various harmonics studys on wood by musicial instrument makers......soooooo my question is thus......Has any sort of difinitive study been done on cue harmonics.....is it all protected info developed by individual manufacturers....has the effect of harmoincs been dismissed as unapplicable to cue making because it is so much of an individual feel sort of thing........just curious about this......and I probably managed to demonstrate just how little knowledge I have of cue making:grin:

It is very important,the frequency of a cue.
Shafts have their frequency and from what I have seen , the handles either enhance and so allow a greater modulation, or they dampen and so have a lower modulation.The shaft frequency maintained to be the same, but the length of time the cue stayed vibrating varied by quite alot.
Some handles allow you to have a greater range of where you can hold the cue and still have satisfactory vibration, while others have to be held in a very specific place to allow it to work.Or if you like have a small sweet spot to hold the cue.The more off center to the cue ball the hit, the more important the cue resonance becomes.
It is easy to find the holding sweet spot. just hold the cue and tap the shaft gently. look at how it vibrates the cue and how long it vibrates for.Adjust where you hold it and how it vibrates. Ideally for you, the area that the cue vibrates the longest , wants to be the same place that you hold the cue for the majority of your play.
My frequency numbers are
 
first place that comes to mind is the black boar website, go look up nodal points in wiki maybe.

its where a standing wave meets an incoming wave thus getting 0.

the anti node is going to have the most vibration.

Ya, I know about waves, been an EE for decades. I was looking for actual scientific data. I think BB has some understanding but I'm more interested in hard data.

Dave
 
Ya, I know about waves, been an EE for decades. I was looking for actual scientific data. I think BB has some understanding but I'm more interested in hard data.

Dave

as for pertaining to just pool cues no i don't know anyone except tony, and maybe kershenbrock. But the theory is applied to bridges and other support structures etc, so why not pool cues? If you compare different cues with different nodal points then you can clearly see the effect the placement of them has on the cues reaction to vibration. Ever noticed the nodal points on a meucci are much closer to the center of the cue on say a meucci, as compared to say a kershenbrok, or sw? Now think about the difference of action and hit those differing cues get.
 
Ya, I know about waves, been an EE for decades. I was looking for actual scientific data. I think BB has some understanding but I'm more interested in hard data.

Dave

You can see the shaft frequency with either a high speed camera or an oscillascope and a photoelectric cell.
What data are you looking for?
 
as for pertaining to just pool cues no i don't know anyone except tony, and maybe kershenbrock. But the theory is applied to bridges and other support structures etc, so why not pool cues? If you compare different cues with different nodal points then you can clearly see the effect the placement of them has on the cues reaction to vibration. Ever noticed the nodal points on a meucci are much closer to the center of the cue on say a meucci, as compared to say a kershenbrok, or sw? Now think about the difference of action and hit those differing cues get.
Does it really matter if a cue is earthquake proof? Can you play a tune on it? What effect(s) does a cues harmonics have on the way it hits, or plays? Should we be buying cues based on the resonant frequency, or should we be more concerned about materials, taper and physical dimensions? I wonder if there are any cuemakers out there that are building cues matched to a specific frequency?
 
Does it really matter if a cue is earthquake proof? Can you play a tune on it? What effect(s) does a cues harmonics have on the way it hits, or plays? Should we be buying cues based on the resonant frequency, or should we be more concerned about materials, taper and physical dimensions? I wonder if there are any cuemakers out there that are building cues matched to a specific frequency?

some cuemakers will change tapers when using differing types of woods. So in a way yes I'm sure some of them are...hell go ring up Kershenbrock and see if he tries to do that. Its not what the resonance does alone, or the taper, or materials....its how the aspects all go together and work together that make the difference.

Just like my custom weinstock has the taper from the butt going into the shaft, I think that makes a big difference, as the tapers work together and do not clash...the cue makes excellent use of how it takes and releases its energy.
 
You can see the shaft frequency with either a high speed camera or an oscillascope and a photoelectric cell.
What data are you looking for?

Any that might be out there. I am always interested in how these things are tested and seeing how the data is presented.

Dave
 
You sued Le Pro? Were they that bad? :wink: :lol:

i should have with all the wasted tips over the years. if i used half a box i was lucky

as for the thread. anyone that doesnt think vibration/feedback of a cue matters in hit and feel they a) never played with a top custom or b)doesnt have the skill to understand what they are feeling.

why do you think there is difference in feel over a short splice cue and a full splice cue.... feel

it doesnt need string to have musical qualities

a crystal glass of water doesnt have strings and by changing the level of water you can product notes...
 
i should have with all the wasted tips over the years. if i used half a box i was lucky

as for the thread. anyone that doesnt think vibration/feedback of a cue matters in hit and feel they a) never played with a top custom or b)doesnt have the skill to understand what they are feeling.

why do you think there is difference in feel over a short splice cue and a full splice cue.... feel

it doesnt need string to have musical qualities

a crystal glass of water doesnt have strings and by changing the level of water you can product notes...
So what resonant frequency should a "top custom" cue be tuned to? And as for a cue not needing strings to have musical qualities, you are correct. You can beat it on a drum, or whip it around like Vince to make a cool swooshing sound. You can even play the air guitar if you would like. So tell me what I obviously don't know. How do you as a cuemaker, factor in the resonant frequency when building a cue and how does it affect the play and feel?
 
> I can tell you for a fact that the 2 ivory ferruled Schon shafts I have "sing" when chalked,and because of that,I hear a miss before I see it,just hearing the difference in the sound of the hit. I wouldn't have it any other way. There was a reason guitar builders used to use ivory for bridge saddles and nuts exclusively. This is the same reason why my personal cues have always had ivory ferrules,and why the cues I eventually build will come standard with them.

Dull/thuddy sounding cues,to me,are a combination of softer woods,and maybe voids somewhere.

Of course,the pin and whether or not the cue has a piloted SS or ivory joint can be,but don't HAVE to be a large factor. I've hit balls with SS and ivory jointed cues that didn't "ping",and SW and Cogs that pinged their ass off,even with thermoset ferrules. Tommy D.
 
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