Your Take On Sandbagging!

SpiderWebComm said:
It's simple. There shouldn't BE handicaps. Problem solved.
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Take away the handicapping and you are removing the reason 80% or more players choose league play. They want to compete on as level a playing field as possible....How long would a novice ( the lifeblood of our sport) maintain his/her interest if all they could expect was their a$$es handed to them every game. The answer is not to remove the system.....the answer is a REAL penalty for violation.....with reasonable proof of same. Who is the enforcer.....Idunno......who sets the penalty....Idunno.......but it needs better oversight for sure.......Dan
 
I think most leagues that have a handicap is to bring in the casual player. I just recently started playing APA and would consider myself an average player. I'm sure there is plenty of sandbagging in APA and have witnessed some already, but I look at APA has a time to have fun with friends and play against some good/decent competition. I know this isn't the mindset of a lot of players though. Sandbagging is something you are going to have to deal with, and hopefully it works out in the end.

If the handicap is removed, then APA and similar leagues would not be able to bring in any casual players. The 2's and 3's would show up for a week or two and get tired of sitting and watching their opponent run the table and never getting a shot.

Sandbagging is something you will always have to deal with when handicaps are there. Hopefully you are able to shrug it off and show up a sandbagger from time to time :).
 
danquixote said:
Take away the handicapping and you are removing the reason 80% or more players choose league play. They want to compete on as level a playing field as possible....How long would a novice ( the lifeblood of our sport) maintain his/her interest if all they could expect was their a$$es handed to them every game. The answer is not to remove the system.....the answer is a REAL penalty for violation.....with reasonable proof of same. Who is the enforcer.....Idunno......who sets the penalty....Idunno.......but it needs better oversight for sure.......Dan
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Why not go bowling with those bumpers in the gutter (or whatever you call them)? There's no such thing as a level playing field in any sport - someone always has the advantage on one side or the other.

I'm not disagreeing with you completely. If these people need a handicap to keep it close and "have fun" ---- then why would someone complain about sandbagging to begin with if they were only there to have fun? I think many of these guys argue this stuff under the guise of having fun when in fact... they're as serious as a heart-attack with pool.

When I was younger, everyone played better than me. I remember playing Mike McAndrew (Shadow) 14.1 when I could hardly make a ball. I would run 5-8 balls, miss....sit for 90. He'd miss eventually or safe me...I'd run 2 or 3 balls...miss...he'd run 60 and out. Start over. He'd break. I'd shoot a shot and miss....80-something on me. I'd lose a safe battle--- he'd run out. I did that for months on end.

I know some people need weight for funsies... but I'm lost with that mentality. I'd rather keep losing to a better player so I can gauge my play.
 
I was accused of sandbagging once. I played in a straight pool league in Lansing and it was around the time I started playing decent. All of the sudden I started running 30's and 40's and everyone was getting upset about it. Some days I couldn't run more than 10 and the next day I'd run out the game so I could see why some people might think that.
 
I'm a bit concerned because all of my teammates are in the top ten of our division and yet our lead is so small. It would be tragic if we were to finish all in the top 10 and still not win. I mentioned my situation to the league coordinator and he said that he might make it so that the top teams can not spot each other any balls. I have no problem spotting balls to a team that is in last place. That is what the handicap is supposed to be for. Our handicap works on a ratio from 6-10 average (ball total %). If you sink 85% of your balls then your average is a 9. It would be good if they broke it down to exact decimals. Example 87% = 8.7 average. We may consider sandbagging near the end of a round if we know for sure we have the round point locked so even if they run out we are still good. Only problem is that it will also keep the total balls close which in turn may bite us in the ass.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Why not go bowling with those bumpers in the gutter (or whatever you call them)? There's no such thing as a level playing field in any sport - someone always has the advantage on one side or the other.

I'm not disagreeing with you completely. If these people need a handicap to keep it close and "have fun" ---- then why would someone complain about sandbagging to begin with if they were only there to have fun? I think many of these guys argue this stuff under the guise of having fun when in fact... they're as serious as a heart-attack with pool.

When I was younger, everyone played better than me. I remember playing Mike McAndrew (Shadow) 14.1 when I could hardly make a ball. I would run 5-8 balls, miss....sit for 90. He'd miss eventually or safe me...I'd run 2 or 3 balls...miss...he'd run 60 and out. Start over. He'd break. I'd shoot a shot and miss....80-something on me. I'd lose a safe battle--- he'd run out. I did that for months on end.

I know some people need weight for funsies... but I'm lost with that mentality. I'd rather keep losing to a better player so I can gauge my play.
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I believe the phrase used was ....as level as possible. Is it safe to assume you have made a bet on say....football.....did you ever make a bet this season on the Raiders for even money.....and not take the spread (handicapping).....have you ever spotted an opponent balls (handicapping)..or would you play Varner for any serious money w/o a spot.....?????? If you can say yes to these questions.....then you truly do not expect or believe in handicaps.....but if not.........
 
danquixote said:
I believe the phrase used was ....as level as possible. Is it safe to assume you have made a bet on say....football.....did you ever make a bet this season on the Raiders for even money.....and not take the spread (handicapping).....have you ever spotted an opponent balls (handicapping)..or would you play Varner for any serious money w/o a spot.....?????? If you can say yes to these questions.....then you truly do not expect or believe in handicaps.....but if not.........
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I never spot or get spots for fun... and leagues are for fun.

I'd play Varner until his arm fell off even for fun (which is the same as league).
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I never spot or get spots for fun... and leagues are for fun.

I'd play Varner until his arm fell off even for fun (which is the same as league).
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very adroit sidestepping of the pertainent questions.....your disclaimer does not hold weight either....leagues do have payout monies......and those most likely to sandbag are those who's primary entrance into league play is for monitary gain......so it ain't all for funsies......and I'll put a c note on Varner head to head with you, whenever you have the opportunity to take my money.
 
Personally, if I have to resort to sandbagging to win then I'm not playing. The VNEA league that I play in is scratch which makes sandbagging a mute point. I want to get better and sandbagging defeats the purpose.

The nice thing about VNEA is long as you have enough weeks in you can play in the national tournament. Of course, you would have to pay the entry, travel, etc.
 
danquixote said:
very adroit sidestepping of the pertainent questions.....your disclaimer does not hold weight either....leagues do have payout monies......and those most likely to sandbag are those who's primary entrance into league play is for monitary gain......so it ain't all for funsies......and I'll put a c note on Varner head to head with you, whenever you have the opportunity to take my money.
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I don't wanna argue. You've made your point - I made mine. Very brave of you to bet on Varner over me. Only a C-note? Wow - you're going out on a limb there.

League is for funsies. If you figure the amount you win versus how many months you put into it--- you're better off collecting tin cans and bringing them to a recycling center (at least you can do that on the square and not get pissed).
 
in all sports everyone is always mad at the sandbagging or whoever uses all the rules however to their advantage. the only way to stop it and keep from ruining the game is to have rules that stop it in place and enforced.
or everyone must decide for themselves to use all the rules as well to their advantage. in any tournament the rules are stated and players can play within those rules and it shouldnt be considered cheating.

i remember when 8 ball was only played where you had to try to make a shot each time at the table or it was considered cheating. now safes and what not are part of the game.
 
I can accept that.....we agree to disagree......and the c-note is all I feel comfortable betting......you are an unknown to me......
 
danquixote said:
very adroit sidestepping of the pertainent questions.....your disclaimer does not hold weight either....leagues do have payout monies......and those most likely to sandbag are those who's primary entrance into league play is for monitary gain......so it ain't all for funsies......and I'll put a c note on Varner head to head with you, whenever you have the opportunity to take my money.
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It has been my experience that most leagues with good payouts (90% going back to the players) are scratch. Some are "bar room rules" (yuck - but still better than being handicapped) and some are BIH
 
danquixote said:
I can accept that.....we agree to disagree......and the c-note is all I feel comfortable betting......you are an unknown to me......
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All the more reason to bet more than $100 / game when Varner is your horse ;)

By the way, I'm not against leagues--- I'm 100000% for them. Leagues ARE our sport today. But if you setup handicaps there WILL be sandbagging and there's no way to stop it. If there were a way to stop it - we wouldn't have this thread. The only way to stop sandbagging is to make it so it benefits you to try your hardest-- and that's scratch play.

Most people go to leagues as a social engagement... we should keep it light and social (i.e. having handicaps and not complaining or getting rid of handicaps).

Trust me--- you're in the HUGE majority here and I'm in the minority... believe me. Most people "have" to win to have fun.... and I don't. Just like some people pay to fish in a stocked fishing pond. Heck - why not hook the fish - throw it out-- and reel it back? Someone told me not too long ago if you have to win every time, play in the Special Olympics. I always thought that was funny - but it made a point.
 
Handicapped pool leagues are a great thing for our sport. They are a major source of income for the pool halls. A large number of league players drink and spent money on food. They spend money and keep the doors open. Without them, I might not have a place to play.

With that said, I don't play in handicapped leagues anymore (partly due to the sandbagging and partly due to the competition). I want to play a good player the majority of the time. I want to improve and play without all the crap that comes with handicapping, so I moved on.

If you want to support pool, play in the local weekly tourny's when you can. Also, play in the regional tourny's (ie Viking Tour, Great Southern Tour etc) when they come to town. I have a good time even though I don't have much of a chance to place in the money....yet.
 
Sandbagging is about a Man's Character. (The inherent complex of attributes that determine a persons moral and ethical actions and reactions.)

If a Man cheats in Pool, then also in Bowling, Golf & Life....SPF=randyg
 
I agree that sandbagging is cheating. But I'm confused to why it's everyone else responsibility that we don't cheat. I thought it was our character that kept us from doing it.
 
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