226 (stopped by his cat)
- Thread starter Marop
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Have to remind here that "cueball fouls" is used only in America. All the rest of the world plays with all ball fouls. There has been several significant runs with this set of rules, including 491 by Thomas Engert and a ~400 ball run by Hohmann plus all the rest of the 300s by many Europeans. I don't know if cueball fouls only was used in the Mosconi era, but I think all ball fouls should be used when trying to make a new world record.
Of course my comment is not directed to Mr. John Schmidt, he's a magnificent player and my hat off to him for trying to promote straight pool and running those multiple centuries on a daily basis. I just wish players would play "the real rules" and all ball fouls is definitely something that belongs to 14.1, IMHO. I always end my practice run if I happen to touch any ball and I know how it hurts to call a foul on myself. It just keeps me doing it again
Hope John will break the Mosconi's record one day. He'd definitely deserve it. Just my $.02
Of course my comment is not directed to Mr. John Schmidt, he's a magnificent player and my hat off to him for trying to promote straight pool and running those multiple centuries on a daily basis. I just wish players would play "the real rules" and all ball fouls is definitely something that belongs to 14.1, IMHO. I always end my practice run if I happen to touch any ball and I know how it hurts to call a foul on myself. It just keeps me doing it again
Hope John will break the Mosconi's record one day. He'd definitely deserve it. Just my $.02
I think the difference comes from the different ways that the game has developed. In the US, the philosophy of many of the gamblers has been "Do unto others before they can do unto you, and then do it again before they can get up off the floor." Respect and honesty are not part of the equation. "Cue ball fouls only" can prevent fist fights in such an environment.
This is from the WPA site:
20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.
I consider these to be the "rules". When I am playing with friends we play cue ball fouls only. When I play in a refereed tournament or league playoff we have always played all ball fouls.
When you are trying on video, by yourself, to get a high run I can't see why 'cueball fouls only' should not be de rigeur for this type of play.
My $0.02
Andy
20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.
I consider these to be the "rules". When I am playing with friends we play cue ball fouls only. When I play in a refereed tournament or league playoff we have always played all ball fouls.
When you are trying on video, by yourself, to get a high run I can't see why 'cueball fouls only' should not be de rigeur for this type of play.
My $0.02
Andy
one would have to be very hard on themselves indeed to scrutinize every practice shot through the eyes of an eagle-eye ref. 
If you plan to play in events which have referees, then it is bad training. Some won't consider your run valid if it has a foul in the middle. If a ball comes back out of a pocket because the pocket is screwed up should you put it down and call it good? It only seems fair that you shouldn't be penalized for the fault of the table.
I believe the regulation -- it's not a rule -- you quoted was put in at the insistence of the Americans after the WPA rules committee had deleted it. Here is the suggested regulation in case there are some officials available. I think it is a better way to play than "cue ball fouls only."
5. Playing with an “Area” Referee
It may be that a tournament is being played with “area” referees who are each responsible for several tables and there is no referee constantly at each table. In this case, the players are still expected to observe all the rules of the game. The recommended way to conduct play in this situation is as follows.
The non-shooting player will perform all of the duties of the referee. If, prior to a particular shot, the shooting player feels that his opponent will not be able to properly judge the shot, he should ask the area referee to watch the shot. The non-shooting player may also ask for such attention if he feels that he is unable or is unwilling to rule on the shot. Either player has the power to suspend play until he is satisfied with the way the match is being refereed.
If a dispute arises between two players in an unrefereed match, and the area referee is asked to make a decision without having seen the cause of the dispute, he should be careful to understand the situation as completely as possible. This might include asking trusted witnesses, reviewing video tapes, or reenacting the shot. If the area referee is asked to determine whether a foul occurred and there is no evidence of the foul except the claim of one player while the other player claims that there was no foul, then it is assumed that no foul occurred.
It may be that a tournament is being played with “area” referees who are each responsible for several tables and there is no referee constantly at each table. In this case, the players are still expected to observe all the rules of the game. The recommended way to conduct play in this situation is as follows.
The non-shooting player will perform all of the duties of the referee. If, prior to a particular shot, the shooting player feels that his opponent will not be able to properly judge the shot, he should ask the area referee to watch the shot. The non-shooting player may also ask for such attention if he feels that he is unable or is unwilling to rule on the shot. Either player has the power to suspend play until he is satisfied with the way the match is being refereed.
If a dispute arises between two players in an unrefereed match, and the area referee is asked to make a decision without having seen the cause of the dispute, he should be careful to understand the situation as completely as possible. This might include asking trusted witnesses, reviewing video tapes, or reenacting the shot. If the area referee is asked to determine whether a foul occurred and there is no evidence of the foul except the claim of one player while the other player claims that there was no foul, then it is assumed that no foul occurred.
sausage
Banned
i almost physically attacked a guy one evening at a local pool tournament when he invoked this "rule". i only had two balls on the table and the 8. i was shooting pretty well and had a decent cut on my second from last ball. after that it was academic. just as i was pulling the trigger, my opponent stands up and SCREAMS; " DON'T SHOOT, DON'T SHOOT, DON'T SHOOT!!!" i wanted to strangle him. he wanted a ref to to watch my shot. it pissed me off so badly that when i repositioned i missed it by not putting enough right english on the cue-ball. then i REALLY wanted to strangle him. to avoid bloodshed, players should be tactful when acting as a "ref".
that is awesome Mr Schmidt. Looks like I will get to see some of that straight shooting in person. (he and Earl Strickland make their way to my town later this week for an exhibition). Would have loved to reserve a spot for the pool school but I think I'm too late
maybe some other time
maybe some other time
Ditto for me if the 14.1 challenge at Valley Forge really does get off the ground. I got to see him win the 10-ball there last year, but I would love to see him run balls in person.
You will probably guess what I'm going to say. This regulation was entered to the rulebook because of the Americans. It is still not used elsewhere. And because it's not officially a rule, it's not mandatory. The part which contains regulations is a list of basic guidelines and recommendations for tournaments. Still, cueball fouls are only used in America. And I perfectly understand why it was introduced, not because people are lazy but as Bob already mentioned, the long history of gambling.
If John runs 600 and makes and touches a few balls here and there, I don't mind and I wouldn't hesitate calling it a world record. But I'd still like to see uniform rules being applied if the world record is to be broken. Here in Europe straight pool is played on a daily basis in many countries and many possible world record runs end prematurely because player touches a ball. On the other hand, you rarely see top European players touching any balls so that kind of makes my theory void.
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Especially since we don't know how many balls Mosconi touched en route to his 526.
I wonder if John uses an OB1 or OB2 shaft and what the difference is.
sausage
Banned
excellent point! if we are going to get all anal about world record 14.1 runs, then in every home and challenge table in america, we are going to have to hire a BCA approved ref to oversee the run. i believe that the dude who swore that he saw mosconi run 526 was an attorney. -i trust lawyers about as much as i trust rattlesnakes but i like rattlesnakes better. - :wink: ....... most players with the skills to challenge mosconi's record are not going to be cheating, and that's all i care about. even at world championship matches, the ref duties are often left to the players so fergetaboutit.
sausage
Banned
this just crossed my mind; since monconi did that record on an 8' table, i hereby commit my 8' Brunswick Ventura II Pro table to the cause of breaking that record. if anyone of record-breaking skills finds themselves in the DFW area, they can contact me and try to break this record on my table. i have a nice digital video camera with 16gb of memory so it WILL be recorded. note that i have just ordered a set of pro Aramit balls which should be arriving shortly and the cloth is Championship Tournament...... mr. 400: i think you will like my table. lol.....
I assume cueball fouls only was used during Mosconi era but can someone confirm this?
The standard in tournament play at that time was all ball fouls. I imagine that exhibitions were conducted the same way. "Cue ball fouls only" came into tournament play at about the same time that nine ball became the dominant tournament game.
Kitty Mosconi! Bad kitty:grin: