parallel shift sidespin adjustment....

[Jaden]

This is a question for those of you who use parallel shifting to adjust for sidespin. I will add a poll as well.

I know that many people on the forum don't think that parallel shifting works or is what the people who think they are doing are actually doing. I know you feel that way and would appreciate it if you would please keep your comments out of my thread.

This is a question solely for those who think they use parallel shifting to adjust for sidespin.

So here is the question.
Do those of you who use parallel shifting to adjust for sidespin use low deflection shaft technology. That is to include any type of low deflection shaft.

Mcdermott I-2, OB-1 (entire line), Predator (entire line) custom low deflection shaft....

or

Custom normal deflection shaft, stock shaft etc....

Jaden

 

[conetip]

A very intersting thread. I have always parallel offset to put side spin on the cue ball. Bad self player probably. But with my carbon shaft,it works very well. When I try the similar shot with a standard wood cue, I always miss the shot. The carbon shaft is very light compared to the wood shaft.About 42.5 grams or 1 1/2 oz for the 29 inch front shaft.
Neil

 

[peteypooldude]

I do pivot on some shots about a tip left or right.It is part of an aiming system i use on certain shots.And i play with a predator cue with a 314 shaft and a triangle tip,and a 314 2nd generation shaft with a triangle.I rotate shafts as the tips wear,They play.and feel about the same

 

[14oneman]

I'm not sure I understand your term,"parallel shifting to adjust for sidespin".

Are you referring to parallel aiming? In other words, if you want to use a 1/2 tip of english to the right, you adjust your aim 1/2 tip on the object balls contact point as well, to compensate for the sidespin?

If that's what you mean, then, yes, and I use an normal deflection custom made shaft.

 

[Jaden]

This is what I mean...

I'm not sure I understand your term,"parallel shifting to adjust for sidespin".

Are you referring to parallel aiming? In other words, if you want to use a 1/2 tip of english to the right, you adjust your aim 1/2 tip on the object balls contact point as well, to compensate for the sidespin?

If that's what you mean, then, yes, and I use an normal deflection custom made shaft.

What I mean by parallel shifting to adjust for sidespin is this....

You aim like you would for a shot with NO spin. Then keeping the cue in a line parallel to that aim line, you shift over for the amount of side spin you want on the ball. Yeah I guess the way you describe it would be considered similar, but there will be angles that you would have to aim in empty space and wouldn't have a point on the OB as a reference.

Jaden

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Jaden:
I know that many people on the forum don't think that parallel shifting works or is what the people who think they are doing are actually doing. I know you feel that way and would appreciate it if you would please keep your comments out of my thread.

I know Jaden would want a couple of things clarified about his statement:

1. Posting a poll "for those of you who use parallel shifting", and getting votes on the poll, doesn't mean people actually do it - it means some think they do. "Parallel shifting" doesn't work in reality except on those shots where swerve exactly equals squirt (a small fraction of shots unless you limit yourself to shots like that). That's not a feeling; it's an established fact.

2. This isn't Jaden's thread. Posters don't own threads, and attempts to pre-censor threads are inappropriate and (obviously) ineffective. Clarifying comments like this one, which Jaden doesn't want to see but might save others some confusion and misinformation, shouldn't interfere with Jaden's ability to collect the info he wants from those who use (or think they use) parallel shifting.

pj
chgo

P.S. I don't think we need to have a discussion about this here - Jaden can have "his" thread back to that extent. I just want to make the above point for readers who might not otherwise know it.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Jaden, I'm not sure whether I should respond to your poll.

I sort of use parallel shift. I line up the shot, I do a parallel shift, and then I adjust my aim point a little if I'm shooting hard, or using an extreme amount of english (or both). There are some shots where I don't adjust my aim at all, since swerve and throw both counteract squirt, and sometimes they cancel out.

So I use a parallel shift, but that isn't really the end of the story for how I aim when using english.

Anyway, I use a Z-2 shaft.

-Andrew

 

[jsp]

"Parallel shifting" doesn't work in reality except on those shots where swerve exactly equals squirt (a small fraction of shots unless you limit yourself to shots like that). That's not a feeling; it's an established fact.

Not only swerve, but throw can also compensate for squirt (as I see Andrew already pointed out). Depending on how low squirt a shaft you have and how dirty the balls are, exact parallel shifting can work for a number of shots.

 

[greyghost]

don't have any name for it but...this is exactly how i aim and exactly how i do it

I don't shift over at all, but when using english I drop into the shot with the cue aligned through the intended english and aim the tip of the cue right at the contact point on the obj ball.

My cue is very low squirt but is just a regular shaft, modified conical taper 11mm tip, i get every bit of spin i need with a 1/2 tip....if the ball is close to the pocket and i really want to spin the CB to travel is the only time i ever really get any farther out than that.

I do not even worry about the cb, the only instance i look to aim with the CB is when it is a very tight cut, like a fine clip shot...

Call it whatever you want....but if I'm lying then I must just be dreaming about all the balls i make, and Matlock never made a ball in his life.

I've showed this to too many people to have it work every time for it not to work b/c it does.

And I'm sure Scott Lee would have told me it was hog wash when i was talking about it and doing it when he came to work with me.

The biggest hurdle in it is to not give in to wanting to adjust b/c it looks funny at first....when you adjust for the optical illusion you miss it, when you drop dead in through the english to the CP and then deliver tip to that point the ball falls.

I use that aim method on probably 80% of the shots i shoot wether it be with or without english. Shots where im cutting tight and the CB is very close to the ob i will use this method but will be using inside eng only in that situation while aiming like that. Not every aiming method can make every possible shot any way, unless its the ghost ball but i don't really consider that an aiming method regardless its not optimal as aiming with the CB on most general shots is wacky. Sort of like trying to aim the bullet in the gun...you aim the gun not the bullet.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

jsp:
...Depending on how low squirt a shaft you have and how dirty the balls are, exact parallel shifting can work for a number of shots.

...also depending on how dirty the cloth is and how humid it is and how far apart the CB and OB are and how hard you shoot and how much your butt is elevated and how much sidespin you add...

How many is "a number"?

pj
chgo

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Well I thought he was asking about using a parallel shift for banking. As for shifting my aiming point because I'm using english is crazy in my opinion. I use quite abit, and I simply use what I think I need to get the desired action on the cue ball. I aim to make the shot, no shifting because I used english. I shoot with a Z and Z2.

Black Cat

 

[Andrew Manning]

Well I thought he was asking about using a parallel shift for banking. As for shifting my aiming point because I'm using english is crazy in my opinion. I use quite abit, and I simply use what I think I need to get the desired action on the cue ball. I aim to make the shot, no shifting because I used english. I shoot with a Z and Z2.

Black Cat

But in order to get from dead center to english, something has to shift, because the tip's in a different place. Some players shift the back hand to pivot the tip to the english that's needed, some players shift the front hand to laterally move the front of the cue to the english, some players move both hands to move the whole cue, in parallel, to the english, and there are other approaches as well.

If you aim along the same angle you would use to make the shot with center-ball, then that's parallel english. The cue is parallel to where the cue would be if you were using center.

-Andrew

 

[14oneman]

What I mean by parallel shifting to adjust for sidespin is this....

You aim like you would for a shot with NO spin. Then keeping the cue in a line parallel to that aim line, you shift over for the amount of side spin you want on the ball. Yeah I guess the way you describe it would be considered similar, but there will be angles that you would have to aim in empty space and wouldn't have a point on the OB as a reference.

Jaden

Yeah, we're on the same page.:thumbup:

 

[alstl]

A very intersting thread. I have always parallel offset to put side spin on the cue ball. Bad self player probably. But with my carbon shaft,it works very well. When I try the similar shot with a standard wood cue, I always miss the shot. The carbon shaft is very light compared to the wood shaft.About 42.5 grams or 1 1/2 oz for the 29 inch front shaft.
Neil

The balance point must be pretty far back with that light of a shaft.

 

[Jaden]

notice that I said think they use it...

I know that no system works for absolutely every shot.

There are several systems that work for the vast majority of shots.

Of course I knew that PJ would respond, he responds to everything, especially when asked to stay out.

I know that people think they are doing something when they are doing something else.

For example, I know that many people who use low deflection shaft tech THINK that they are just aiming at the contact point on the OB from whatever spin they are putting on the CB.

That isn't the case. There are some extremely gifted players that think this. What they are likely actually doing is focusing on the CP on the OB and using a CB projection visualization technique and parallel shifting without even realizing it.

The reason I asked this question is that it is highly unlikely that anyone who isn't using LD shaft technology could use this technique with any consistent rate of success for the majority of shots.

I didn't even think it was possible and had been using a long bridge with my I-2 shaft and using BHE until it was pointed out to me by a friend that I wasn't aiming right for the LDS that I was using.

I then tried some different things including actually aiming at the CP for all shots and discovered that for the VAST majority of shots, using a short to medium short bridge, parallel shifting DOES work with LD shafts.

The best technique I have found, and those of you with LD shafts can try this and see how it works for you... is to use ghost ball or CB projection visualization terchniques to get the CB path visualized in your mind and then staying on that line, get down into the shot with the english that you want.

This keeps aiming as simple as possible and I think is even better than BHE with a normal shaft.

A couple of additional points to keep in mind.

1) make sure you stroke as straight through the CB as possible and you'll have to figure out minor adjustments for swerve etc on certain shots.

2) make sure you have a LD shaft, if you try this with a normal shaft, it AIN'T gonna work for sure. Maybe 10-15 % of shots that you'll come across will work and trying it will just screw up your muscle memory.

Jaden

 

[greyghost]

But in order to get from dead center to english, something has to shift, because the tip's in a different place. Some players shift the back hand to pivot the tip to the english that's needed, some players shift the front hand to laterally move the front of the cue to the english, some players move both hands to move the whole cue, in parallel, to the english, and there are other approaches as well.

If you aim along the same angle you would use to make the shot with center-ball, then that's parallel english. The cue is parallel to where the cue would be if you were using center.

-Andrew

i never ever shift anything. Going by your definition of paralleling I do not parallel. The angle is still close but clearly not the same angle when i drop in using english compared with me dropping in on center. And remember I never shift, nor do i use BHE....i line up the bullseye that is my bridge with the intended english and from there straight at the CP...just straight delivery in every way. BHE is the anti christ to me....i havent hit one shot like that pushing a decade.

my cues lines up like this

/I\

the center I is me center ball, the two outer slashes are an exagerated angle of the line of the cue stick with that same side english, left or right.

Is there a particular name for this type of aiming? David showed me that some years ago in my late teens. I never knew what it was called just know it works. Someone had mentioned a while back that it looked like i was paralleling and i said i didn't think it was but it looks very similar. Or should we just call it the Giant method after dave LOL:wink:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Jaden:
I know that no system works for absolutely every shot.

Correct. In fact, no system works strictly as described for even a majority of shots.

There are several systems that work for the vast majority of shots.

Not without conscious or unconscious adjustment from the strict "system instructions".

...for the VAST majority of shots, using a short to medium short bridge, parallel shifting DOES work with LD shafts.

I don't believe this is true - I believe you're making some of those unconscious adjustments. How are you ensuring that you're not? Just being really convinced isn't convincing.

And, by the way, what do you think bridge length has to do with it?

pj
chgo

 

[conetip]

The balance point must be pretty far back with that light of a shaft.

The handles was specially made for a lightweight shaft. To put a lightweight shaft to a standard cue,then both balance and total weight is change alot.
The lightweight shaft has a very low deflection and at the same time the cue has quite a long pivot point.
I find that when shifting to the side for spin on the ball, over about 40 inches,there does not appear to be deflection.
Neil

 

[Jaden]

Bridge length.....

Correct. In fact, no system works strictly as described for even a majority of shots.



Not without conscious or unconscious adjustment from the strict "system instructions".



I don't believe this is true - I believe you're making some of those unconscious adjustments. How are you ensuring that you're not? Just being really convinced isn't convincing.

And, by the way, what do you think bridge length has to do with it?

pj
chgo

The only thing bridge length has to do with it is that I've only accurately tested it with a short to medium bridge length. Other than that I was only referencing it because of bridge lengths effect on BHE. I'm not trying to get into an argument with you, I wanted to ask a question of people for my own edification.

I've stopped trying to convince anyone of anything. I'll provide my billiards kungfu (techniques learned over time) and if someone can take something away from them, fine, but I'm done arguing with people.

Jaden

 

[jsp]

...also depending on how dirty the cloth is and how humid it is and how far apart the CB and OB are and how hard you shoot and how much your butt is elevated and how much sidespin you add...

How many is "a number"?

The point is that exact parallel shifting can work for numerous shots.

I know your gripe concerns the word "parallel" in the terms "parallel shifting" or "parallel english". I understand that. With high squirt cues, the vast majority of the shots can't be pocketed with the cue completely parallel to the cue line when hitting center ball.

But most knowledgeable pool players (I feel) know what it is meant when we say the term "parallel english". It's used to differentiate the method from backhand english and fronthand english, because in parallel english the cue angle with respect to your body alignment doesn't change for shots with or without english. For both BHE and FHE, your cue angle with respect to your body alignment does change depending on the english you use.

Sure the name is slightly misleading, but unless someone thinks of a better name and it sticks with the pool community (just like the term backhand english, which could also be thought as misleading depending on how you want to dissect it), then I'm fine with parallel english for now.

Based on how I described parallel english, maybe a better term would be "Zero Cue Angle" english, or ZCAE? Or maybe just "No Hand" english, or NHE?