Big brother already won. The law will never come off the books.
It's just the first step. Someone posted that it isn't about health, it's about power. Well, they just got a little more power, and they will continue to expand it.
Baby steps!!!
Steve
poolhall smoking
- Thread starter donny mills
- Start date
Big brother already won. The law will never come off the books.
It's just the first step. Someone posted that it isn't about health, it's about power. Well, they just got a little more power, and they will continue to expand it.
Baby steps!!!
Steve
I'd be honored to meet you Willy. If I make it to the U.S. Open 9 Ball championship I will see you there.
Thanks for posting.
I thought I had missed the answer to Donny Mills' question. Has anyone answered his question?
Thanks,
JoeyA
Private Property Rights
A pool hall is private property with something called property rights. Tobacco is a legal substance. Taxes are paid to the government to sell tobacco. No one forces anyone into an establishment that has a poor environment. Anyone can bring their cash and support either a smoking place or a non smoking place. Let the capitalist system work.
The system so far is, I don't like smoke, I think it damages third parties, therefore lets stop others use of a legal product. Lets stop it in a restaurant, bar, public building, car, bus, train, airplane, too close to a door, ... or in your own home.
Contrast this to, I don't like smoke, I think it damages third parties, therefore I will not support establishments that have smoke particulates. I will spent my dollars elsewhere. If enough people agree with me, then, smokeless places will thrive as will smoke places on a proportional basis.
How about making tobacco illegal. Go ahead and put those companies out of business and eliminate the tax base. Tobacco would proceed to be illegal and its price would climb like other black market products. It would also obtain a cool acceptance by the culture similar to other smoke-able substances.
And, I do not, have never and do not intend to smoke.
PS
I do appreciate your bringing this over to the non pool related location form the main forum. Over there it was an in your face, I feel good about me issue.
A pool hall is private property with something called property rights. Tobacco is a legal substance. Taxes are paid to the government to sell tobacco. No one forces anyone into an establishment that has a poor environment. Anyone can bring their cash and support either a smoking place or a non smoking place. Let the capitalist system work.
The system so far is, I don't like smoke, I think it damages third parties, therefore lets stop others use of a legal product. Lets stop it in a restaurant, bar, public building, car, bus, train, airplane, too close to a door, ... or in your own home.
Contrast this to, I don't like smoke, I think it damages third parties, therefore I will not support establishments that have smoke particulates. I will spent my dollars elsewhere. If enough people agree with me, then, smokeless places will thrive as will smoke places on a proportional basis.
How about making tobacco illegal. Go ahead and put those companies out of business and eliminate the tax base. Tobacco would proceed to be illegal and its price would climb like other black market products. It would also obtain a cool acceptance by the culture similar to other smoke-able substances.
And, I do not, have never and do not intend to smoke.
PS
I do appreciate your bringing this over to the non pool related location form the main forum. Over there it was an in your face, I feel good about me issue.
Why do you keep bringing up this subject? We've had numerous threads already and we've heard all the arguments. Your side is winning. Is that not enough for you?
I don't know how to swim, but I enjoy getting wet. I don't think it's fair that swimming pools are so deep. They're forcing us non-swimmers to risk our safety by making the pools so deep. I think all swimming pools should be 3ft deep so I don't have to worry about drowning. Come to think about it, the ocean is too deep. I think we need to make the ocean only 3ft deep so non-swimmers like me can enjoy a nice day at the beach.:thumbup:
Note: I'm a dirty liar. I can swim just fine.
IMHO, it should be the business owner's choice....if they choose to allow smoking, their business takes on the pros and cons of smoking....it might be more attractive to smokers, but nonsmokers will likely prefer to go elsewhere.....they have to incur the cost of those smoke eaters, the place smells like crap, and you can't look across the room because of the fog...
If it's nonsmoking, you get the value of a nonsmoking venue.....you don't have to implore smoke eaters, it smells better, no fog, and it will appeal to nonsmokers....on the downside, you lose customers that like to have a smoke while they play.....
I don't smoke cigs, so I prefer a non-smoking establishment myself...
BUT, consumers ONLY vote for a place of business should be with their dollars.....I completely don't agree that consumers feel they have a right to dictate the business rules for someone's business until they also decide to subvent that business choice with their own dollars when things get rough for the owner....
I always try to take the high road in these sorts of discussions (and many others) but I the part that I find troubling is how the smokers completely ignore the rights of non-smokers.
I am going to side-step the second-hand smoke/cancer issue, which is the primary reason for these bans. That can and will be debated for many years to come. What I don't understand is why smokers can't realize that I'm not interested in smelling like an ashtray because of their habit.
We see many responses from smokers about this bad habit or that bad habit, and why isn't that banned. (Overweight, drinking, too much TV, etc) I'm not championing those issues. Those habits do not affect others around them other than drunk-driving, which is heinous and is already legislated against. Smoking directly affects those in proximity of the smoker, from the possibility of health issues, to the basic details of making everyone else STINK. And I have no control over it, other than leaving the area where the smoker is standing.
It isn't all about you. Or me. Or the next guy. We all have to try and live together, kumbaya and all.
Maine has had smoking banned in public places for many years now, and it has worked out OK. As for people hanging out by the doors, that isn't an issue, as most places prohibit that, and create their own fenced in smoking areas. (Bars have to do that in order for the smokers to take their drinks with them. Other places do it for just the reason the other posted stated, negative reaction by the public.)
Again, I'm sensitive to the troubles smokers have with their habit. I just don't wanna have to take a shower when I come home from a bar, and put my clothes in a trash bag until it's laundry time.
North Carolina will survive this. Many other states have managed just fine, they will too.
I am going to side-step the second-hand smoke/cancer issue, which is the primary reason for these bans. That can and will be debated for many years to come. What I don't understand is why smokers can't realize that I'm not interested in smelling like an ashtray because of their habit.
We see many responses from smokers about this bad habit or that bad habit, and why isn't that banned. (Overweight, drinking, too much TV, etc) I'm not championing those issues. Those habits do not affect others around them other than drunk-driving, which is heinous and is already legislated against. Smoking directly affects those in proximity of the smoker, from the possibility of health issues, to the basic details of making everyone else STINK. And I have no control over it, other than leaving the area where the smoker is standing.
It isn't all about you. Or me. Or the next guy. We all have to try and live together, kumbaya and all.
Maine has had smoking banned in public places for many years now, and it has worked out OK. As for people hanging out by the doors, that isn't an issue, as most places prohibit that, and create their own fenced in smoking areas. (Bars have to do that in order for the smokers to take their drinks with them. Other places do it for just the reason the other posted stated, negative reaction by the public.)
Again, I'm sensitive to the troubles smokers have with their habit. I just don't wanna have to take a shower when I come home from a bar, and put my clothes in a trash bag until it's laundry time.
North Carolina will survive this. Many other states have managed just fine, they will too.
Donny,
Let's take your example and give it wings....let's set aside the fact that if you choose for the business owner, you now make a rule that effects his bottom line, yet you take no responsibility for his profitability....
How else to room owners make money?
Alcohol - well, outside one glass of red wine for health reasons every day, alcohol consumption is bad for you and dangerous. People can kill others by drinking and driving, it ruins your liver, and it removes inhibitions....
We should install a law that makes the sale of alcohol illegal, well other than one glass of red wine to each customer.....hey, you never have to worry about an annoying drunk, nor drinking and driving, nor health issues.
Fried foods - hey, fried foods are bad for you - they cause obesity, health issues, heart attacks, and increase medical costs for us all. Let's make a law where pool halls can only serve healthy food.
IMHO, it's a slippery slope....all of a sudden, we put up all these roadblocks where business owners may lose their way of life, all because instead of taking our business elsewhere, we decided it was our right to tell him how to do his job....
The health issue is a slippery slope....
Let's take your example and give it wings....let's set aside the fact that if you choose for the business owner, you now make a rule that effects his bottom line, yet you take no responsibility for his profitability....
How else to room owners make money?
Alcohol - well, outside one glass of red wine for health reasons every day, alcohol consumption is bad for you and dangerous. People can kill others by drinking and driving, it ruins your liver, and it removes inhibitions....
We should install a law that makes the sale of alcohol illegal, well other than one glass of red wine to each customer.....hey, you never have to worry about an annoying drunk, nor drinking and driving, nor health issues.
Fried foods - hey, fried foods are bad for you - they cause obesity, health issues, heart attacks, and increase medical costs for us all. Let's make a law where pool halls can only serve healthy food.
IMHO, it's a slippery slope....all of a sudden, we put up all these roadblocks where business owners may lose their way of life, all because instead of taking our business elsewhere, we decided it was our right to tell him how to do his job....
The health issue is a slippery slope....
No it's not. I'm in charge of my health. You're in charge of your health. PROBLEM SOLVED!!
How in the world would it hurt a business if every single business was non smoking? Now if there was a choice to own a non smoking or smoking bar or poolhall of course the smoking one would be way busier I bet, but if all were non smoking please tell me how in the hell it would take profits away from the owner?
My concerns with the issue do not relate to "smokers rights" or "non-smokers rights". I am more concerned about the right of a business owner who invests his own money into a business being strong armed by the government. As long as cigarettes are legal, I see no reason why a business owner shouldn't be able to either allow or ban smoking in his business. If he allows it, and customers don't show up because of the smoke, that is his problem. If he bans it, and the smokers quit going there, that is his problem as well.
But it's his business, and he should be allowed the flexibility to run it in whatever way he thinks makes the most business sense.
Steve
I can't begin to express the joy it brings me knowing that you can swim. For the rest see below what Bartram says.
I think your right...probably the reason they will never legalize pot..now your forcing me to get high too ! that's just great LOL
justadub said:
I think smoker's antipathy towards the ill effect their habit has on others is a psychological side effect of the addiction. I'll explain.
Smokers KNOW what they do is bad for them. They tell themselves that almost every single day. Sometimes multiple times per day.
The physical addiction causes them to badly want the next cigarette anyways.
The mind is getting multiple conflicting inputs.
1. Cigarettes are bad for me
2. I really want cigarettes badly.
3. I make other people stink when I smoke around them. This makes me feel bad.
4. I really want cigarettes badly
5. Cigarettes are too damned expensive
6. I really want cigarettes badly
The mind does not like being in a state of ongoing uncertainty. When put in a state of continued conflict or uncertainty, the mind will "make up" stuff that does not necessarily make sense, and then continue to reinforce these false "truisms".
In these circumstances, at a subconcious level, the mind tells the person:
1.It's okay to smoke, my grandpa lived to be 90, smoking 30 packs/day
2. I deserve it
3. Non smoking jack@sses are just busybodies, and can't mind their business
4. Hey, we all gotta spend our money, it should be on something we enjoy
Etc..etc...etc..
This caused an interesting psychological effect. The subconcious mind works so many hours each day reinforcing these negative thought patterns, that eventually, the negative thought patterns and ambivalence towards others becomes more pronounced.
The smoker starts flicking his finished cigarette out the window, not caring who has to pick it up
The smoker becomes less likely to open the door for someone else going into a store
The smoker becomes more snappy with others in their day to day life.
These are just generalizations, but a few studies have shown that smokers tend to be, as a group, just a little bit more rude to their fellow man.
I hope this does a little to explain why a lot of smokers simply don't care what effect their habit has on others.
Russ
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I think smoker's antipathy towards the ill effect their habit has on others is a psychological side effect of the addiction. I'll explain.
Smokers KNOW what they do is bad for them. They tell themselves that almost every single day. Sometimes multiple times per day.
The physical addiction causes them to badly want the next cigarette anyways.
The mind is getting multiple conflicting inputs.
1. Cigarettes are bad for me
2. I really want cigarettes badly.
3. I make other people stink when I smoke around them. This makes me feel bad.
4. I really want cigarettes badly
5. Cigarettes are too damned expensive
6. I really want cigarettes badly
The mind does not like being in a state of ongoing uncertainty. When put in a state of continued conflict or uncertainty, the mind will "make up" stuff that does not necessarily make sense, and then continue to reinforce these false "truisms".
In these circumstances, at a subconcious level, the mind tells the person:
1.It's okay to smoke, my grandpa lived to be 90, smoking 30 packs/day
2. I deserve it
3. Non smoking jack@sses are just busybodies, and cna't mind their business
4. Hey, we all gotta spend our money, it hsould be on something we enjoy
Etc..etc...etc..
This caused an interesting psychological effect. The subconcious mind works so many hours each day reinforcing these negative thought patterns, that eventually, the negative thought patterns and ambivalence towards others becomes more pronounced.
The smoker starts flicking his finished cigarette out the window, not caring who has to pick it up
The smoker becomes less likely to open the door for someone else going into a store
The smoker becomes more snappy with others in their day to day life.
These are just generalizations, but a few studies have shown that smokers tend to be, as a group, just a little bit more rude to their fellow man.
I hope this does a little to explain why a lot of smokers simply don't care what effect their habit has on others.
Russ[/QUOTE]
So does the " C player " mean cigarette ?
But that's the thing. You act like everyone "has a choice". Sure, people could "choose" to avoid socialization because places that encourage socialization (bars, pool halls, etc) are dominated by smokers, but this would lead to decreased procreation rates, and the ones who DO procreate will more likely be smokers, and hence would pass on the gene for risky behavior, which in and of itself is not good for the human genome pool.
But, I digress..
Let's look at it this way. We all agree that monopolies are bad for business, They hold down competition. Right?
Okay.
Who says monopolies are only held by businesses?
I think we (both government and as a society) have allowed a certain customer class to dominate. (smokers dominating the social scene in many states at the expense of non smokers)
Few dudes are ever gonna stop chasing ***** because the cat happens to be in a smoky bar. No matter how MUCH they hate the smoke. It's what we are programmed to do genetically.
Few women are gonna stop looking for a dude, just because all the dudes are out in the smoky bars, looking for cat. No matter how MUCH they hate the smoke.
And the flip side is true. WHEN the smoking bans in bars eventually reach all commercial areas of all 50 states, it's not really gonna matter in the end to business. Dudes are still gonna chase cat, and women and still gonna look for dudes. And they'll need somewhere that serves alcohol to do it.
As the commercial smoking bans take effect, smoking will become less popular. A social stigma is already being attached to smoking as we speak. (And this is a good thing)
The arguments against anti-smoking laws will barely exist in 50-75 years, because hardly anyone will smoke any more. And somehow, our economy will not collaspe.
Fight it if you want, but just don't fool yourself into thinking it will change anything.
Russ
Not a chance. I would never start a nasty habit like that. My wife does smoke however, and even in our own home, she does what every other smoker should voluntaryily do.
She takes it outside.
Russ
Simple, people can't get what they want so they stop going......instead of playing at the bar, they get a table at home....or, they go play at a friends house.....or they stop playing entirely.....the bar loses their pool $$$, as well as the money they spend on alcohol, food, and anything else....
In your example, you are effectively banning smoking and enforcing your opinion on everyone, enforcing your set of rules on the business owner and making him comply......
Donny, in your original request, you asked for a logical reasoning, and I've done my best to do that.....again, I don't smoke, so I don't care personally, but I respect the tough decisions of a business owner....you requested that we keep emotion out of the argument - well, it's been my experience that there is usually more emotion in non-smokers arguements around this topic...
I think its pretty amazing how some folks need to justify foolish behavior.
"Well, it's legal..." Yea. It's legal to own ammo also but you can't walk around busting a cap in someones ass at will.
Yea, kinda extream but you get the point. When one's "freedoms" impose themselves on others rights, well then, something is gonna change.
I myself am a part-time ex smoker. It is a ***** to quit, no doubt. I feel the effects from long term smoking. If you have been around for a while, you have seen the effects of long term smoking. Ever see someone dying from emphysema? Ain't no way to go, hoss. Will you be one who can smoke their entire life and not have any of the bad side effects? Very, very highly doubtful.
If your gonna be irresponsible and need to burn a weed, at least be responsible enough to step outside so your habit doesn't effect others.
"Well, it's legal..." Yea. It's legal to own ammo also but you can't walk around busting a cap in someones ass at will.
Yea, kinda extream but you get the point. When one's "freedoms" impose themselves on others rights, well then, something is gonna change.
I myself am a part-time ex smoker. It is a ***** to quit, no doubt. I feel the effects from long term smoking. If you have been around for a while, you have seen the effects of long term smoking. Ever see someone dying from emphysema? Ain't no way to go, hoss. Will you be one who can smoke their entire life and not have any of the bad side effects? Very, very highly doubtful.
If your gonna be irresponsible and need to burn a weed, at least be responsible enough to step outside so your habit doesn't effect others.