CLOSE HITS: Do you say "Watch this, it's going to be close"?

CreeDo...Yes it is always true. Even in the shot you submitted, it would be easy to tell if it was a legal hit or not, by the way the balls moved afterwards. Not trying to argue with you, but this is what is taught to professional referees (not talking about the amateur ones, like at the VNEA), and they rarely make mistakes. The top BCAPL referees know exactly what I'm talking about. Perhaps one of them will chime in (several post here). BTW, we teach this technique in our Xpert Class at pool school, and it will be taught at the referee school at the BCAPL nationals in May.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

CreeDo said:
This is a common argument. I find it's not always true. I remember lots of leagues where guys swear that the end result couldn't have happened unless it's a bad hit, but I saw the hit and know it was good and know how the same result could occur. Sometimes it's just close.

This illustration is NOT perfect for the kind of hit I'm talking about, I just know I've seen situations like this where one ball is hit thin and the other is hit squarely. Two ways it can happen:

1. You microscopically thin it before hitting the 1 more or less flush, and the CB then drifts uphill with its remaining energy.

2. You hit the 1 flush, the cb's remaining energy carries it forward, causing it to barely thin the 2 as it drifts uphill.

You might think "that should be super clear, visually" but it's not, the ball's moving, you hear a "ka-klack" sound, and the 1 moves and 2 almost doesn't. What just happened?

CueTable Help

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Okay, in the diagram, without seeing the actual balls getting hit... which got hit first? You have the starting and end positions. Did the 2 get nudged an inch sideways .2 seconds before the contact or .2 seconds after?

Just as there's more than one english that can result in the cue ball arriving at an exact dime-sized spot, my argument is that there's more than one way the balls can be contacted to result in them arriving in the same spot (or close enough that a human can't judge it).
 
CreeDo...Impossible to tell, with 100% certainty, unless I could see it in action on a table. From your diagram, I would say the 2ball was hit slightly first. As far as your second argument, I suppose that in 1/100th of 1% of shots that were "close hits" you might be right. There are certainly rare exceptions to every rule. But then again, that is why we train professional referees to know what and how to observe shot scenarios.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

CreeDo said:
Okay, in the diagram, without seeing the actual balls getting hit... which got hit first? You have the starting and end positions. Did the 2 get nudged an inch sideways .2 seconds before the contact or .2 seconds after?

Just as there's more than one english that can result in the cue ball arriving at an exact dime-sized spot, my argument is that there's more than one way the balls can be contacted to result in them arriving in the same spot (or close enough that a human can't judge it).
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Scott, I swear I'm not trying to be an ass, but that seems to contradict

Even in the shot you submitted, it would be easy to tell if it was a legal hit or not, by the way the balls moved afterwards.

and

I can tell you whether a hit was good or not just by observing the placement of the shot, prior to shooting, and then the position of the balls after the shot...even without seeing the shot!

Do you need to see the contact and the balls rolling afterwards? Or can you really just tell by looking at the beginning position and end position? The latter jumped out at me as ...let's just say overly optimistic. Maybe my diagram is the one in a million that breaks all the rules but I feel it comes up more often than that. For a while it seemed like we had one every week at the league I was in, and it was no use trying to deduce it from the direction or final resting point of either ball :/

For the record, I do believe you when you say that the pool school training will improve my ability to call such hits accurately.
 
The truth is, when you look at the scale in the diagram, the cue ball can't drive the 1 ball AND 2 ball both in the indicated directions regardless of which is hit first.
Hit the one that thick, & the 2 heads more toward the lower left corner. Hit the 2 that thin, and the one likely hits below the side pocket.
Exactly the kind of thing Scott is referring to...
 
CreeDo...I do not need to watch the hit, or see the balls rolling after the hit. I can tell (if I look carefully at the shot prior to the hit), whether it was good or bad, by where the balls lie afterwards. This was demonstrated by randyg two weeks ago in Ft. Myers FL. The shot was set up, similar to yours, randy turned his back, and I shot it with all the students watching. Randy was able to easily tell which ball was hit first. So...in your opinion, in your shot diagram example, which ball was struck first?...the 1 or the 2? I say it has to be the 2, because the angle of travel on the 1 is too much towards the corner pocket. It would be more towards the side pocket if it was struck first...but then again, diagrams can be deceiving...and inaccurate to actual real circumstances. JMO

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

CreeDo said:
Scott, I swear I'm not trying to be an ass, but that seems to contradict

Even in the shot you submitted, it would be easy to tell if it was a legal hit or not, by the way the balls moved afterwards.

and

I can tell you whether a hit was good or not just by observing the placement of the shot, prior to shooting, and then the position of the balls after the shot...even without seeing the shot!

Do you need to see the contact and the balls rolling afterwards? Or can you really just tell by looking at the beginning position and end position? The latter jumped out at me as ...let's just say overly optimistic. Maybe my diagram is the one in a million that breaks all the rules but I feel it comes up more often than that. For a while it seemed like we had one every week at the league I was in, and it was no use trying to deduce it from the direction or final resting point of either ball :/

For the record, I do believe you when you say that the pool school training will improve my ability to call such hits accurately.
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Even if I am 99% sure it will be a good hit, I will call over a referee if I think my opponent may question it at all. I'd rather have the ref negate any potential complaints than to have to argue or, even worse in some cases, have my opponent go on thinking that I've made a bad hit and am trying to cheat him or her.

Just call over an impartial 3rd party to watch the hit and save yourself a lot of trouble.
 
Scott Lee said:
EZMoney...There is NO such thing as a "split hit". It is either good or bad. Referees are taught to be able to tell whether a hit was legal or not, by the direction the other OB and CB travels. I can tell you whether a hit was good or not just by observing the placement of the shot, prior to shooting, and then the position of the balls after the shot...even without seeing the shot! I will be doing a free clinic on learning how to correctly observe and determine a "legal" hit, at the BCAPL Nationals. Anyone who wishes to learn this technique please stop by!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Well...I have called a 'split' before, but it is always ONLY when there are two of MY balls involved. I will pick one and call the shot, but I am usually following up with, 'if I hit this right, both balls will fall". But I agree that there is no such thing as a 'split' when two opposing balls are involved.

Lisa
 
Good or Bad Hits!

KoolKat9Lives said:
It's recently happened twice to me, with almost identical situations and results. Playing 10 ball I went for a carom off the OB to make the 10 ball.

Both times:

- I informed my opponents "watch the hit, it will be close"
- I made the 10
- It was too close for me to call. I thought the OB went on the proper tangent from a good hit.
- After much discussion, the calls (and the cheese) went against me. :mad:

FYI: The rule states if it's too close to call, the ruling goes in the shooter's favor.

The last time this happened to me, a respected player on an adjacent table immediately pronounced "bad hit". :confused:

I'm thinking I won't be advising my opponents that an upcoming shot will be an extremely close call. Although it seems like the noble thing to do, it only invites controversy. It's an opponent's responsibility to watch the table, right?

For the more experienced players here: to advise or not to advise?
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Seems like to me you invited disaster by asking your opponent to watch the hit of an upcoming shot, your in control of the table, your shooting, and unless your opponent ask for someone to watch a questionable hit, keep on stroking.


David Harcrow
 
peteypooldude said:
What I usually do if its close and my opponents not pool stupid I will get him to look at it and ask him ..can u make this on a good hit?" If he says yes then he usually wont even look at it again,but thats how I approach it,
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I really like this approach... It gives a respect to the other player.
I am a very honest person, I will call all of my own fouls (even if they weren't obvious to anyone else). If a shot comes up and I'm not sure I would be able to see the hit, I *myself* will always call a ref or an unbiased 3rd person over to watch the hit.
 
KoolKat9Lives said:
It's recently happened twice to me, with almost identical situations and results. Playing 10 ball I went for a carom off the OB to make the 10 ball.

Both times:

- I informed my opponents "watch the hit, it will be close"
- I made the 10
- It was too close for me to call. I thought the OB went on the proper tangent from a good hit.
- After much discussion, the calls (and the cheese) went against me. :mad:

FYI: The rule states if it's too close to call, the ruling goes in the shooter's favor.

The last time this happened to me, a respected player on an adjacent table immediately pronounced "bad hit". :confused:

I'm thinking I won't be advising my opponents that an upcoming shot will be an extremely close call. Although it seems like the noble thing to do, it only invites controversy. It's an opponent's responsibility to watch the table, right?

For the more experienced players here: to advise or not to advise?
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I've read most of the replies and I'm surprised nobody commented about the player at the adjacent table calling it a bad hit. You were gambling?
I think it's a cardinal sin in pool circles to get involved in the game in any way unless both players ask for your opinion.
I think whenever there's going to be a close hit, you both should agree to have someone else who is qualified (player, room owner,) make the judgement and then live with the answer. JMHO
 
ridewiththewind said:
Well...I have called a 'split' before, but it is always ONLY when there are two of MY balls involved. I will pick one and call the shot, but I am usually following up with, 'if I hit this right, both balls will fall". But I agree that there is no such thing as a 'split' when two opposing balls are involved.

Lisa
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How would you have 2 of your balls involved in 9 or 10 ball? You have only 1 ball to hit first for it to be a legal hit.
 
Well Scott, many a player will cheat like a mother fu#$er to win at $50 a game. Basically what I do is plant the "positive seed." I say, "Check this shot out. I didn't think I could play it, but after looking closer, it's a no brainer." Then, I hit the ball and leave it up to them to prove otherwise. If it's so close that I am REALLY worried (in the back of your mind you know you're gonna foul), I play safe. If it's fifty fifty, please go back to scenario in this paragraph. You KNOW down deep if it's gonna be good or not. And if you know it, stick to your guns.

PS.... If they are too insistent, cut them with a Bowie knife. Preferably one that is from the mid-1800's. They are beautiful. Some of them have bone handles. Only cut them up with the best.
 
Scott: definitely hard to say if my diagram can even be accurate. Maybe the CB can't do what I show it doing, or something had to travel further than I pictured.

What makes it tricky is since the 2 barely moves... if it gets thinned first it moves more towards the head spot. If it gets thinned after it moves more towards the side pocket. Because it barely moves, you'd be hard pressed to say if it moved "northwest" or mostly just "west". If it had travelled 3 feet then it'd be crystal clear.

Staring at it, I want to say the 2 got hit afterwards, because it's moving almost 90 degrees to the path of the CB. Easier to envision it getting kicked more sideways than getting cut there. But I did say it's getting hit super thin. Maybe this is a better example than I thought of one of those weird ones we always fought about in league.
 
m79a said:
How would you have 2 of your balls involved in 9 or 10 ball? You have only 1 ball to hit first for it to be a legal hit.
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Actually, I do not play 10 ball...but in 9 ball, it could happen. I come across this opportunity rarely in 8 ball, but when it's there, it's there.

I did not realize that this was an issue strictly related to a 9 or 10 ball game....a close shot is a close shot, no matter the game...i advise, and move on...i do give my opponent opportunity....however, I do not make a big deal of it. I give the fair warning once...after that, too bad if you did not pay attention.

Lisa ====does not need to cheat to win a game.....won't cheat to win a game.
 
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I just had this happen to me on Sat. I'm in a little tournament. I said to the guy we better get a referre. He says. I'm going to shoot it real soft so it will be easy to tell. He reaches down and aims the shot and makes a horrible hit and then reaches over to shake my hand. The match was over. he just walked away with no discussion.

Bottom line. On a close hit either way always get a ref. And not just anyone.
 
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