APA.........You Do the Math.

cuesmith said:
I too hope to make this my last comment on the subject!

First I don't begrudge the APA making a living, even a GOOD living. Especially the league operators. I know it's a thankless job with more headaches than Carters has little liver pills (just showing my age there). But ....

You should not think because you have 250,000 members that they are happy or even satisfied with the system! I assure you the vast majority of them think it sucks! But in a lot of cases it's "the only game in town" for them anyway.

The concept of a night out with your friends, playing pool is very inviting. In the beginning things seem pretty innoculous but the longer one plays in the APA the more they realize what a rediculous system it really is. Sure you still have your night out, but you've likely had to split your team up and form teams with new players. For some this type of social interaction may be just the ticket, but most want to play pool and don't like being told who they can play with.

Anyone who says that sandbagging isn't a HUGE problem in the APA is either naive or simply a liar! The sandbagging is obviously fueled in large part due to the infamous "23 rule"! This "23 rule" is strictly an instrument used to divide teams and create more of them, thereby bringing in more money for the APA heads, LO's, bar owners etc. While this may seem like a good thing, bringing more players to the sport etc.... That's what the APA would like you to believe! BUT the harm done by forcing people to sandbag way more than outweighs the the benefit of more players. Give the people a league that rewards them for improving, helps people who want to advance beyond the amateur rankings and gives something back to the sport in the way of pro tournament sponsorship and I think you'll see some improvement in the way the sport is perceived.

I understand that a lot of the LO's are hard working, conscientious people who are very much interested in the sport. They also are caught between a rock and a hard place. I don't blame them for defending their business interests, but the LO's need to let St. Louis know that people aren't satisfied with status quo. That if they want to continue to lead the market they'll have to change before someone does put the time effort and money into making a league that people will be satisfied with. If they wait til that happens it will be too late, the bubble will burst! Personally I'd rather see the APA correct the flaws in their system and really become the model pool league they try to make people think they are. They already have the infrastructure. But I'm afraid they are doomed to their own greed and are too stubborn and greedy to make the changes for the better! And here I'm refering to the top of the food chain, not the LO's.

I'm off the soap box, wasted too much time arguing what I see as the obvious!
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APA has done exactly as you requested, Sherm. They developed a Masters League. This sounds like the exact thing you are looking for. You will never have to break up your team in this format.

I haven't responded to you before, mainly because it seems rather obvious to me that you seem pretty convinced in our opinion. It would be a complete waste of my time to attempt it. But, for your loyal readers, I will go ahead and do it anyway. I operate a very big league. Not once in probably the last 5 years has a team split in two due to handicaps in my league. A team split in two because there was a ton of infighting going on amongst them, but not once has a team split in two for handicap reasons. Thus, the "pyramid scheme" thought process is quite skewed.

It's already been said before in this thread, but the typical move is to replace a higher skilled player with a lower skilled player. One roster change can typically fix a team's handicap issue. With 8 players on a roster, it's hard to keep the same 8 players on a team in the first place. In all the years I played APA before becoming an LO, I can't think of a single time I went into the next session with the same identical team. Not because of handicaps, but because someone started going to school on Tuesday nights, or someone got a girlfriend who didn't like pool, or they took a job at night, or they decided they just didn't like committing to Tuesday's, or they were too selfish to sit and let one of their teammates shoot that night, etc........If you really have no friends that aren't high skilled players, I suggest you go out and find some. People who don't live and breathe pool need friends, too.:smile:

I'd ask you what your skill level was when you first joined APA, but I'll just assume you are a highly skilled player, because it's generally the highest skilled players who enjoy hearing themselves talk the most. ;), but APA created this league to bring NEW people to the sport. It's done exactly that. If APA raises the handicap limit, they now alienate the whole concept of bringing new people to the sport.

I've yet to meet someone who can take a cue out of the rack for the very first time in their life and shoot 7 level pool. I've also never seen any other pool leagues cater to this very same person. If you put that new player in any non handicapped league in my area, the team that added him will be laughed out of the building by all the serious pool players.

APA designed a handicap system that allows this gentleman to get his feet wet with organized pool league play. When he becomes so good that every other league can benefit from having him in their league, he will have plenty of choices.

I know it's an inconvenience for a team to have to drop even one player due to handicaps. But, people do get better. And the honest teams do what they have to do. They bring a new member to the team that will likely take years to get to the level of the player they replaced. You are also correct that some people will not do the right thing and just attempt to skirt the rules. In some areas, it's quite possible that the honest people stayed quiet too long and the league might be overrun by not so honest people. But, that's not everywhere and that's not to say APA simply turns their back on the problem.

Some of us care more than you will ever know. But, the fine folks at AzBillards certainly aren't the one's you should be complaining to. Complain to the local LO. If that doesn't solve the problem, contact the APA.

But, by all means, please don't assume that APA is what's broke because they won't adjust the skill level limit to meet YOUR team's needs. APA is looking at the big picture and promoting pool to everyone who enjoys to play the game, not just the select few that are actually good at the game. It would be silly to think that APA could raise the handicap limit to 30 and still have an influx of new people join the league. If APA did that, we'd be catering to the same select few that every other league is catering to. What would be the point of that and how would that be promoting new people to the sport?

At the very least, just get over it already if you really hate APA. It's not healthy for you to spend this much time agonizing over something that is no longer a part of your life. If you want it to still be part of your life, go through the proper procedures to fix it. Again, AzBilliards has a wonderful site, but I doubt they have the wherewithall to handle local APA skill level handicap complaints. I'm not so sure they even want to tackle that issue. As a person who does deal with handicap complaints, I can assure them they don't want any part of it. It's not my favorite part of this job, but it must be done.
 
Wish I could rep APA LO again. It's not even that I'm a big fan of APA, I'm not in it anymore. But it's nice to see someone fight for something they obviously believe in. He's willing to go to bat with a forum full of hostile attitudes and deeply ingrained misconceptions. And his arguments are clear and direct and I'd like to think they get through to someone. But that requires the bashers to open up their minds and throw away their agenda.

Does anyone read this guy's posts and truly, sincerely believe he's just lying through his teeth and raking in piles of cash with some pyramid scheme? And what about the 250k members, they've all been fooled and should be playing elsewhere? Maybe... just maybe... we should give them some credit. It's very possible they go in making an informed decision, and they're aware of other options, but they stick with the APA because they actually like it and aren't worried about payouts. I don't think they'd quit if the league operator opened up his books.
 
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As Mark Griffen stated, the APA has a great business model. The APA has successfully carved its place in the very limited pool market.

For any successful business model that is to be sustainable, it must be profitable in free society. The APA has done that. Maybe a few at the top have made a good deal of money, but I don't think any LO's are getting rich. I think most do it as a labor of love. As a former BCA LO (pre BCA-PL) I can tell you that it is a lot of work.

Just because they have 250,000 doesn't mean it is the best thing for the game of pool. Some pool purists will argue that the bar box has hurt the game.

The problem or by-product is the handicapping system and therefore the sandbagging. The APA has yet to solve this problem to the satisfaction of the majority of the players.

The bottom line is we (the pool community) should be working together for the best interest of the game. When someone like APA LO attacks someone like Mark who has done so much for the game, it saddens me. If the APA was an end all solution, they wouldn't be getting so much backlash from the pool community.

The APA has done very little to promote the higher level pool player. As many have stated, they force you to generate a new team after reaching a certain skill level or quit. Where does this agree with the idea of a "social league"? It doesn't because the APA is about generating money first, not about the best interest of the game. That's the bottom line.
 
jason said:
When someone like APA LO attacks someone like Mark who has done so much for the game, it saddens me.
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Let me get this straight, the president of the BCA is posting in an APA thread falsehoods about the APA and I'm the guilty one?

Consider me guilty as charged, I suppose. :confused:
 
overtaker said:
Don't people in the BCA office have better things to do than put messages up on this waste of time. Wait I forgot, not much going in bca, lol
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Yes, so not much going on there is $13,000 added BCAPL State tournament going on this weekend in Oklahoma:rolleyes:

S.
 
APA LO said:
APA has done exactly as you requested, Sherm. They developed a Masters League. This sounds like the exact thing you are looking for. You will never have to break up your team in this format.

APA LO,

Does a player have to be on a regular APA 8 or 9 ball team in order to participate in the masters?
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A couple of things I disagree with...

jason said:
Just because they have 250,000 doesn't mean it is the best thing for the game of pool. Some pool purists will argue that the bar box has hurt the game.
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If your argument is that popular doesn't mean good for pool... are you sure? If you could distill 'good for pool' into a single, definable goal... an end result to work towards... what would it be?

"More people playing" sounds like a pretty good candidate.

The problem or by-product is the handicapping system and therefore the sandbagging. The APA has yet to solve this problem to the satisfaction of the majority of the players.
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Can you prove that a majority... 50% or even 25%... consider sandbagging to be a major problem? There's a whole community of guys who play every week and have no complaints. They don't post here and they don't write angry letters to the LO about some guy staying at 4 when he should be bumped to a 5.

We don't hear from those guys because they aren't going out of their way to say everything's fine. It's the vocal minority that's doing all the talking. It gives the impression that there's a tidal wave of complaints about sandbagging when probably it's only a small fraction of players who notice or care about who's-ranked-what.

The bottom line is we (the pool community) should be working together for the best interest of the game. When someone like APA LO attacks someone like Mark who has done so much for the game, it saddens me. If the APA was an end all solution, they wouldn't be getting so much backlash from the pool community.
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That's ridiculous. LO didn't start this thread, nor did he talk to or about mark until mark went after him. He felt like he was, at least indirectly, under attack. People are talking about apa LO's in general like they're greedy a-holes who break up teams to make more money and permit sandbagging because they don't care about the fairness of the matches. It's kind of a no-brainer that a guy who ID's himself as APA LO is going to fight back.

The "backlash" you're talking about happens in any successful venture. The bigger something gets, the more complaints you'll get. Nobody got to be the size of mcdonald's without pissing off a lot of people. There is no way you will see a league that is huge and popular and makes money for everyone, and has a fairly low level of complaints.

The APA has done very little to promote the higher level pool player. As many have stated, they force you to generate a new team after reaching a certain skill level or quit. Where does this agree with the idea of a "social league"? It doesn't because the APA is about generating money first, not about the best interest of the game. That's the bottom line.
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Well, let's be perfectly clear. It's a business. It IS about making money, like ALL BUSINESSES. A handful operate in the red because the owner really loves what he's doing or wants to donate his time and effort to some goal. But you cannot ask thousands of league operators to do this. It's perfectly fair if you want to do it on your own, but you don't have the right to expect that of other people.

The APA doesn't deny it favors the lower level players over the higher level. And their motives for that may indeed be profit. 90% of the people who play pool probably can't run 5 balls in a row consistently. You can't be profitable by favoring that other 10% at the expense of the 90%.

The side effect of favoring newbies is that more of them join leagues and get into pool. That is good for pool. Stuff like "this is bad for pool because purists don't like it and there's a backlash of complaints" is abstract. 250,000 members is real. It can be quantified. You cannot put sticks into the hands of 250K people and be bad for pool.
 
We won our division playoffs

justadub said:
Just to point out that not all APA areas operate the same as what YOU might be used to...

We won our Division playoffs last session. Our team split $800 between us. The second place team split $400 between them. $1200 in our division that session.

Multiply that by three sessions. $1200 x 3 = $3600

Multiply that by 2 (number of divisions our LO has) $3600 x 2 = $7200

Thats just here in little old backwoods Maine. In payouts for winning your Division session. BEFORE going to any Regionals. And our LO still sends I believe 5 teams to Vegas in the end.

So some actually DO make a little bit of scratch from playing in our league, and our LO does pay out a pretty fair amount. Certainly not to the level all your hot-shot players expect, not bad for a "fun" League.

Darn it, I guess he didn't see Rule Number 1, huh?
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Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.

The only good think about league play is you get a team drink in most bars. Mo8 ball pays out each session and you have a chance to win 6000 every 4 months if you win your division or win your division playoffs.

Missouri 8 ball is a business just not under the cash cow model.
 
markpatrick said:
Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.

The only good think about league play is you get a team drink in most bars. Mo8 ball pays out each session and you have a chance to win 6000 every 4 months if you win your division or win your division playoffs.
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Two things... On your first point, it's a too bad YOUR league didn't have a payout at the end of the session.
So yes, when playing in your APA League, that does kinda suck. But as we have pointed out in this thread and many others, not all APA Leagues run the way yours did. I got paid my very first session in our League. I'm not BS-ing you. Thats the wway it runs here. Just like your Missouri league runs the way it does there.

We do have to play two sessions in order to play in the Vegas qualifier, which is consistent. But that has nothing to do with being paid for winning the session. And thats OK with me, too, because I joined the league to play.

Lastly, I never get any team drink! Dammit! The best I get is a slice of pizza one week out of the 16. How the heck did THAT happen? To me, of all people. Free drinks are the best drinks! :p
 
markpatrick said:
Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.

The only good think about league play is you get a team drink in most bars. Mo8 ball pays out each session and you have a chance to win 6000 every 4 months if you win your division or win your division playoffs.

Missouri 8 ball is a business just not under the cash cow model.
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I'm really happy that you found a league that suits all of your wants and needs. But, let me ask you a serious question........

Why aren't you hanging out in a happy go lucky Missouri 8 Ball League thread instead of this APA bashing thread?

Is it because you'd rather complain about things you don't like rather than talk about things you do like?
 
markpatrick said:
Did not get a dime. Was told we had to play the next two sessions to be eligible to play in the regional then have a chance to go to Vegas.
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Just for clarification, the requirement to continue playing in the league or lose eligibility is an anti-sandbagging measure. I know, because I was part of the group that brought the requirement into existence. Without it, teams would qualify in Summer Session, then drop out and practice for eight months. The next we see of them is at the regional, where everybody on the team shoots a level or two higher than they were when they left and they run over their opponents.

By requiring the team to play with at least four original members, we get to monitor their improvement from the time they qualify to the time they play in the regional. It really has nothing to do with "getting their money for two more sessions". It's about doing everything we can to make sure the skill levels of players in the regional reflect those players' true abilities.

I can already imagine some of the replies I'll get to what I wrote above. Let me try to head some of them off at the pass...

"Just because they have to play, it doesn't mean they have to win. What's to keep them from losing all their matches in the subsequent sessions?" We took care of that in the rules too. If a qualified team fails to finish in the top half of their division in a subsequent session, the LO has the authority to take their qualification away. It's not automatic - we run a handicapped league, and theoretically a team could finish first one session and last the next. All we want is for our players/teams to give an honest effort every week. If the LO feels a team isn't giving an honest effort, he/she can take their qualification away.

"Only four original members have to play, so the other four could disappear and show up with greatly improved abilities nine months later." Not really. The Spring Session roster is the roster that plays in the regional, so anyone who isn't on the team (or doesn't play four times) in the Spring will not be eligible.

"So four players could take off Fall Session, then come back for Spring and just play the minimum four matches, not showing anything in those matches." This is true. However, guess who I'm focused on when I review skill levels for the regional? Who do you think are going to be the first ones I watch at the tournament?

It's a bit of a balancing act. You don't want to penalize honest players who have legitimate reasons for not being able to play often. On the other hand, you want to do whatever you can to make it hard for the cheaters to succeed.
 
When a player wants to improve their personal game (no mater the game), they practice and practice and practice.. right?

Well what if that person does not know what they are doing wrong or why he/she keeps missing the pocket or not get to the desired position for the next shot, would you recommend that he/she find someone to help them so that when they practice its the correct way?

Bad practice will result in negative outcomes, proper practice will result in positive outcomes!

Agree???

Then how is the APA benefiting the future of pool? Yes, they are getting players involved in the game (#s don't lie), but what kind of talent is there going to be in the regional tours, pro tours in 10-15 years when the current players are no longer playing? Currently the APA encourages bad practice ethics and has no reward for improving your game... ohh, wait, you get to form another team and make new friends and kiss your other friends goodbye!

Just a thought!
Zim
 
IbeAnEngineer said:
APA LO,

Does a player have to be on a regular APA 8 or 9 ball team in order to participate in the masters?
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That's up to each individual LO from what I understand. Contact your LO to find out if they offer the format and what their roster requirements are.
 
Zims Rack said:
When a player wants to improve their personal game (no mater the game), they practice and practice and practice.. right?

Well what if that person does not know what they are doing wrong or why he/she keeps missing the pocket or not get to the desired position for the next shot, would you recommend that he/she find someone to help them so that when they practice its the correct way?

Bad practice will result in negative outcomes, proper practice will result in positive outcomes!

Agree???

Then how is the APA benefiting the future of pool? Yes, they are getting players involved in the game (#s don't lie), but what kind of talent is there going to be in the regional tours, pro tours in 10-15 years when the current players are no longer playing? Currently the APA encourages bad practice ethics and has no reward for improving your game... ohh, wait, you get to form another team and make new friends and kiss your other friends goodbye!

Just a thought!
Zim
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http://forums.azbilliards.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
Before you worry about the demise of competitive pool, and it being all the APA's fault, just stop.... take a deep breath.... and look around. Not everyone has the desire, energy, available time and/or money, or skill to become a "really good player". Since "really good players" wouldn't lower themselves to APA league play, of course...

That having been said, anyone who wants to get better is going to get better. That is a drive that comes from within. No amount of sandbagging or griping about rules will stop that. It just won't happen. Players want to play, and they want to beat people.

Those who play the system obviously aren't interested in that, they are interested in getting away with something, or pulling a fast one. A "hustle", if you will. They get their jollies from being able to say they won, not in being able to beat someone.

Those who don't try to improve so they can stay under the 23 rule have no honor, and no life to speak of. Why would you worry about them ever improving enough to play at "your level", with the big boys?

On the other hand, there are A LOT of casual players. They aren't interested in driving themselves to be able to beat everyone, and that should be OK. And it doesn't signal doom and gloom for competitive pool in coming years.

It seems that the major theme behind these APA bashing threads is that a group of 4 or 5 friends who all play at a high level can't play APA, and they're mad as hell about it. "Change the system for us, dammit!" If you guys are all so darned good, why are you playing League anyway? "Haven't you heard? Good players don't play League. And those that do won't ever try to improve, they all want to keep their handicaps down."

Bull. I'm trying to improve, every week. I still suck, but I wasn't bummed out when I went from a 3 to a 4 this past week. It makes our team have to scramble now, but we'll be fine. I want to play better. I know I'm not the only one, either.
 
Apa

I am new to the APA, our league just started this year, i am so far enjoying it in eightball I have had a pretty good run, I am rated a 7 I know this is a little inflated, due to the lack of competition we only have 6 eightball teams and 4 nineball teams.
I like the nineball scoring, it forces me to out play my opponent every game. I would like to be able to play for a qualifier, but due to our small size we are told that we cannot hold one or go to another area and play, I feel that if i am an APA member I should be able to go to any APA affiliated, (singles) event no matter where it is held, and play.
I also don't like the fact my wife and I cannot play in scotch doubles as a team ,as we would be above the 10 point cutoff.

If any of what I am saying is wrong than I would appreciate help in finding out how to get the correct info.
 
Poolhalljunkie said:
I am new to the APA, our league just started this year, i am so far enjoying it in eightball I have had a pretty good run, I am rated a 7 I know this is a little inflated, due to the lack of competition we only have 6 eightball teams and 4 nineball teams.
I like the nineball scoring, it forces me to out play my opponent every game. I would like to be able to play for a qualifier, but due to our small size we are told that we cannot hold one or go to another area and play, I feel that if i am an APA member I should be able to go to any APA affiliated, (singles) event no matter where it is held, and play.
I also don't like the fact my wife and I cannot play in scotch doubles as a team ,as we would be above the 10 point cutoff.

If any of what I am saying is wrong than I would appreciate help in finding out how to get the correct info.
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636-625-8611 is the number to the APA National Office. Players travel where they must to compete in Regional events. APA coordinates events based on the amount of participation in certain areas and then sets up Regional sites. While it may be true that you can't hold one yet, you can certainly be sent to another area to compete in one. It's not as easy as just showing up wherever you wish, however. APA can walk you through this better than I can, so feel free to call them and ask to speak to someone in the tournament department about Single's Regionals.

Of course, you also have to qualify locally on a Single's Qualifier Board before you can be invited to compete in the next round.

If you are still new to the APA, it's possible your handicap isn't fully established yet. Maybe as your and your wife's skill level settle in, you will be able to compete in a Scotch Doubles Tournament with the handicap limit of 10. But, if you can't, find a new partner. Chances are good you would have been sleeping on the couch teaming up with your wife anyway. The first time you hook her on a ball, sorry honey probably won't be good enough.:cool:
 
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