APA.........You Do the Math.

[uwate]

Does APA pay back very little to the local players who dont make it to Vegas? Yes for sure.

Does APA encourage mediocre play and tend to prune the better players from the league? Yes I also believe this.

Does the APA system penalize players for getting better? Yes and it encourages sandbagging.

All that said, APA is successful and I dont begrudge them for making a profit. They have found a market in the amateur pool community and their system benefits the pool room as well as encouraging more beginners to have a weekly organized pool league.

Really though, if APA is cutting a huge profit out of the league, then the natural course of business evolution is that this will create an influx of competition. A fat profit margin is like a big white underbelly of a sluggish beast that other starving entrepreneurs look to slit in a capitalist system. APA should watch their backs carefully because in the long run, a focus on extracting too much profit from the players with too small of a giveback on the local level will only result in the successful rise of other league systems.

Until then, I guess I will continue seeing players firing in a ball that goes 4 rails then off of two balls into a side pocket, and the rest of the team whoops and yells APA APA APA!

 

[Ball Banger]

Correct me if I am Wrong.

APA is a great business model.

First APA provides a 5 to 6 figure income to a multitude of people across this country and a few more.

Second it provides a playing field for those who would other wise not make the team or be 5th string.

Third the pay back margin is so low that most of the Player never see a dime.

 

[alstl]

APA is a great business model.

First APA provides a 5 to 6 figure income to a multitude of people across this country and a few more.
Second it provides a playing field for those who would other wise not make the team or be 5th string.

Third the pay back margin is so low that most of the Player never see a dime.

I just joined an APA team for the first time and I did it strictly to have fun. I can already see why people complain about the 23 point limit for a team but you pointed out the reason why it isn't likely to change.

If I was getting rich with the current business model I wouldn't change it.

 

[justadub]

I'm sure there are good people among APA too, but it seems lately all I hear are complaints.

S.

Surely you realize that 90% of the complaints are created by 10% of the participants, or less. This applies to almost anything, anywhere.

In business, we know that for every person that makes a complaint there are literally dozens more who are satisified, or not bothered enough to worry about it. Certainly we need to pay attention to those who are unhappy, but we alse know that they are nowhere near the majority, else we wouldn't still be in business at all. This applies to so many things in life, and all this APA bashing is proof of that.

I'm not always here in these threads to necessarily "defend" the APA, because A) they don't need defending, and B) I'm not always pleased with everything that is done, at least at the local level. I'm not here to say they are the best thing since sliced bread. But that doesn't mean I have to tear the whole thing down. It is a good business model, that they don't need to be ashamed of. It DOES get more new people into pool, which supports the local pool rooms, and the equipment manufacturers. And it gives all you "really good" players someone to either hustle, make fun of, or mold in your own image. Hey, some of us might actually get "good" some day, too. Nahh.........

As always, it is fashionable to bash APA if you consider yourself a "good" pool player. It's always fashionable to bash the big guy. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Wal-Mart, Microsoft, Obama/Dubbya, AT&T, the Yankees (justifiably :grin-square the Cowboys, anything that is very successful will get the lions share of the bashing, too. It is the nature of things. If you can't realize that and admit that, then we can't have a reasonable discussion.

It seems people aren't happy unless they are complaining... an oxymoronic way to live, but hey, what do I know? After all, I'm just an APA banger.

 

[LeagueGuy]

APA is a great business model.

First APA provides a 5 to 6 figure income to a multitude of people across this country and a few more.

Second it provides a playing field for those who would other wise not make the team or be 5th string.

Third the pay back margin is so low that most of the Player never see a dime.

You forgot to add that it also;

Provides 250,000 customers that buy cues, cases, tables and other pool items

Provides customers to over 10,000 (I am guessing at that number) bars and pool halls , some of whom may not be in business without them

Provides table vendors with locations and revenue

any many other spinoff effects.

While the other leagues (TAP, BCA, Valley etc..) do this as well, the APA provides more as they have more members.


As a previous post said, if the APA does not give back fair value, then they will not be around much longer. The marketplace will dictate that. I can tell you in my area and in many others the APA is actually growing and the other leagues are shrinking. Maybe it is because of the work and money that my L.O. puts into it. (our area pays cash each session in a tournament as well as trips to vegas for teams, doubles, masters and captains winners) That may not be the case in all areas but that is why I take so much offence with all the bad info about the APA in these posts.

The APA system works and is good for the game of pool. If there are bad L.O.'s out there (and I am sure there are) then talk about them specifically if you must but don't generalize because what may have happened to you is not the norm. Every industry has its bad apples and our is no exception.

 

[Ball Banger]

Surely you realize that 90% of the complaints are created by 10% of the participants, or less. This applies to almost anything, anywhere.

Justadub

Once again that wonderful APA Business model has found a way to make money off the Malcontents. They simply charge a $ 50 fee to file a formal disagreement and therefore get paid for their time.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Here in the Valley of the Sun, ONE APA League Operator is spending a lot of MONEY to getting players to their LEAGUE! As I will will assume both Pool Newpapers are CHARGING the Operator for their 1/2 Page Color in one paper, and 1/2 Page Black & White in the other paper.

I would guess that is about 3-4 hundred bucks per month on advertising in those two publication alown, plus flyers, and poster? So the League operator is making GREEN...

APA is just one of of the 7 or 8 by my count with APA, BCAPL, ACS, TAP, VNEA, Arizona Pool League, and UPA.

Would not Pool be better off with just, One Sanctioning Organizations? Just one Sanctioning Organization Set of Stand Rules? Just Sanctioning organizations sanctioning, ALL Youth, Novice, Amateur, Leagues, and last Professional Pool Events??

 

[LeagueGuy]

Justadub

Once again that wonderful APA Business model has found a way to make money off the Malcontents. They simply charge a $ 50 fee to file a formal disagreement and therefore get paid for their time.

Hey Ballbanger,

Again, rather than take a shot at the APA, why not simply recognize that in hockey, baseball, soccer, darts, bowling, and almost any other organized sport, you must pay a protest fee to file a protest. Otherwise everyone would file a protest every week for no reason.

Protest fees are common in every competitive sport but you choose to make it an APA issue.

Do you have a vested financial interest in dragging down the APA or do you just need counselling?

 

[justadub]

Justadub

Once again that wonderful APA Business model has found a way to make money off the Malcontents. They simply charge a $ 50 fee to file a formal disagreement and therefore get paid for their time.

$50 to file a formal complaint does seem extreme. I already said I don't agree with everything they do.

Simple fix, don't play.

If you want to have a team with all your best buds on it, then realize you can't play APA if you're all "really good". It won't work, it ain't for you guys.

If you don't like the way the organization does what it does, don't play. Play in some other league.

If you expect to get paid to play in a league, don't play APA.

If you are so good that the APA rules seem silly to you, don't play.

If you are big league talent, why are you so worried about the minor leagues?



If you can't recognize that many of these complaints sound elitist....

 

[APA LO]

I guess some of you 'APA' supporters/ LO just can't handle the truth. Mark G. said that APA is a great business model and even complimented about it's concept somewhere in this thread, but all you can think of is that he is bashing APA? Wake up people.

Claiming that 20% is all that is paid back is bashing the APA.
Claiming that APA's rules are make believe is bashing the APA.
Claiming that APA does nothing to promote the game of pool is bashing the APA.

I guess his way of offering up a compliment is to spit on my shoes before he kicks me in the ass.

If this was just a BCA message board, I guess I just wouldn't care what Mr. Griffin said about the APA. Instead, he said it on a forum visited by my very own customers. If he wants to spew forth a bunch of negative commentary about other leagues, he better be ready to deal with responses he doesn't like.

You will never see me on here bashing the BCA, and that's all I ask of Mark and anyone who actually works for BCA.

The negative crap does nothing for anyone. In a sense, I'm doing Mark a favor by stopping himself from embarrassing himself any further. He should only talk about what he truly knows about. That's it. It's that simple.

Everything else is opinion. We all know the old saying about opinions......

 

[sunnyday]

To APA LO:

It looks like Mark G. has already answered your question. You should try calling him and speak to him yourself.

I think it was embarrassing for APA when the letter was read at the WPBA'S voting committee threatening to pull their sponsorship if Mark G. was voted onto the board - might I add - completely a voluntary service?

Besides, this is a public forum, anyone can speak their mind here.

If you don't like it, then don't play, LOL.

S.

First of all, I sure would like to know who I am talking to - you can contact me by PM if you prefer it that way.

Secondly, as many of the other posts have stated, the 20% is not that far off. I absolutely agree there are good and bad League Operators - but to state that I am spreading misinformation about the APA is not accurate.

The APA is a great business model - but it does very little to promote pool. There rules are 'make believe' and their system really promotes sandbagging (just ask the APA players). I do get along with several APA League Operators but the APA home office has policies that do nothing but alienate me.

But this thread is about how much money is returned to the APA players. I will stand pretty close to the 20% I stated earlier. You may pay out way more - but your brethren just don't.

Is that bashing? I don't think so - it is what it is.

Bashing is the APA BLACKMAILING the WPBA members to not cast their vote for me to be on their board. They say it would be a conflict. Strange that the APA never felt they were in conflict the 10 years that Renee' was on the BCA board. A little double standard?????

The APA has drawn the line in the sand - not me. I will try to work with anyone if that will advance pool. The APA can NOT say that. And that is one reason why I don't think they are good for pool.

If you want to debate this, please pick up the phone and call me (702-835-2000 is my cell). But if you don't tell me your name, I will not talk to you.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL - USAPL - NCS



APA LO said "Mark Griffin is the President of the BCA, not an APA LO. All I am asking is that he act like the president of a significant pool organization and stop spreading misinformation about other leagues.

Even as the lowly bad APA LO everyone likes to make us out to be, I know better than to spread lies and misinformation about other leagues."

 

[APA LO]

When it's a fact, it's called "Constructed Criticism".

S.

You are not really helping matters when you claim something as fact that isn't fact at all. It's CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Don't EVEN talk to me about spotting by ball count. Besides the fact that it's a horrible way to handicap 8-Ball, my contention would be that the disparity in ability between players would still produce matches that can't fit into a league night.

Please note that my comments apply to ANY system of handicapping, not just 8-Ball and not just APA. Every handicapped league suffers from the time constraints of a league night, so NO handicapped league can ever produce 50-50 matches all or nearly all the time.

I am usually a APA basher but trying to stay positive on this thread.

In pool the better player almost always has the advantage, (gambling or league), and giving the spot may lessen it, but unless the spot is enormous the lower player is in a tough spot.

I dont like the other leagues (non-APA) where you have ball counts. IMO, especially in 9 ball the object is to win the game not make balls. So it teaches people to play the wrong way. APA 8-ball does count games won, not balls.

But this discussion seems to focused on 8-ball, so as I mentioned above, the 23 rule is good, and trying to stay as close to 23 makes the team as successful as possible. If the number was 25 or 27 as some has suggested, those teams would be nearly impossible to beat in the playing format. Imagine facing (3) SL7 verses (3) SL2-4. The winning percentages would be maybe 90%, and the SL7 has no fear of going up so they have no need to sandbag and can play full speed.

Again trying to stay positive, I cant think of a way to handicap that would get the 50/50 percentage and do it in a reasonable amount of time, that does not include the pain of ball counts, etc.

So all of APA bashers (me included), before you bash, give a better way that still meets that critiera.

Ken

 

[sunnyday]

You are not really helping matters when you claim something as fact that isn't fact at all. It's CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

Well, thank you. Sense your beeing a grammer & spelling police, you mind corecting eeryone els' post

S.

 

[APA LO]

To APA LO:

It looks like Mark G. has already answered your question. You should try calling him and speak to him yourself.

I think it was embarrassing for APA when the letter was read at the WPBA'S voting committee threatening to pull their sponsorship if Mark G. was voted onto the board - might I add - completely a voluntary service?

Besides, this is a public forum, anyone can speak their mind here.

If you don't like it, then don't play, LOL.

S.

You're exactly right, Sunny. Anyone can speak their mind here. And that's typically what people do. People badmouth the industry in just about every thread on this forum. There is so much negativity, that I typically don't visit here anymore. That's sad, because I think I have a lot to offer this game. I'm an enthusiast of the sport and I don't like any negativity. I only respond when someone calls into question my integrity, spreads falsehoods about my business or attempts to muddy the APA in general. For the lengthy posts that some of these people make, it's pretty clear they have some sort of agenda against APA. I care about the sport of billiards and it definitely makes me angry to see people constantly bashing a product over and over. If they don't like it, they should just not play. Along those same lines, If APA were really as bad as everyone likes to portray them to be on this message board, there is absolutely no way they would still be in business.

Mark decided to spread falsehoods about my business and I'm simply pointing out how embarrassing it is for him to do so. A true professional doesn't spread lies on public forums. Or at least they shouldn't if they wish to continue being viewed as professional.

I fell into the trap that Mark now finds himself in on this message board. You want to feel important and feel like you are making a contribution, but then you get sucked in by the negativity, and later you realize all you did was waste a bunch of time arguing with people who matter very little to the success or failures of your business. You waste the time because you don't want negative people to get the last word and make your product look bad. You are proud of your product and you want your customers to know you are proud of your product.

But, just be proud of your own product. Don't drag other people's products through the mud. Especially not with invalid and false claims.

You reap what you sew!

 

[APA LO]

Well, thank you. Sense your beeing a grammer & spelling police, you mind corecting eeryone els' post

S.

Yeah, I was sorta having a little fun with that one. Sorry.

 

[APA LO]

IMO, especially in 9 ball the object is to win the game not make balls. So it teaches people to play the wrong way. APA 8-ball does count games won, not balls.

Ken

I really liked your post, Ken. But, I have to disagree with you on the above paragraph. Maybe you didn't word this exactly how you wanted to, but I have to disagree on the level of importance it is to learn how to play shape on balls in 9 Ball, and string runs together rather than look for the first potential combination to cheese in the 9.

Learning how to play position and run racks is not the wrong way to play 9 Ball. If you don't learn how to run racks, you won't win very many sets.

While APA does not really reward someone for sinking the 9 Ball, the reward comes from stringing together lengthy runs, and does not reward for not stringing together lengthy runs. In other words, it will not reward you if your opponent runs 1-8 in every rack and leaves you the 9 Ball.

 

[Ken_4fun]

While APA does not really reward someone for sinking the 9 Ball, the reward comes from stringing together lengthy runs, and does not reward for not stringing together lengthy runs. In other words, it will not reward you if your opponent runs 1-8 in every rack and leaves you the 9 Ball.

No, IT DOES REWARD you for running 1-8 of each rack.

The player makes 8 balls and gets 8 points, I would get 2 points for making the 9.

I get the break (which is a HUGE disadvantage in APA 9 ball because of the no pushout rule). I hook myself or get no shot on the one, and turn the table with ball in hand. Again the player runs balls, doesnt try to "win", but just make balls (and I have coached players, "just make balls!"). I dont tell them to break out balls to make run outs, I told them "just make balls".

IMO, the no pushout in 9 ball makes 9 ball a (lets say dissappointment) and I no longer play it in APA, and it is my game of choice when not playing leagues. I cannot win against a SL2. I think I had to make like 68 or 72 points before they made 16 or so. (No flames on exactly requirements because it has been a few years.)

Thinking that playing APA 9 ball will improve players is like thinking that sandbagging doesnt happen in almost every match.

Ken

 

[Total_Chaos13]

First let me say I have no pony in this race, just wanted to throw out what i see in my local apa league. Let me also say apa lo you sound like a great lo and I wish i had you as mine, if you ran my apa it might be the biggest in the nation, right now we are in the top 10 in members.

The op was about the math so lets DO THE MATH. These numbers will not be exact but just give an idea of the apa in my area. Like i stated before my region is in the top 10, I don't know exact rank but i have heard as high at 2 as low as 7. We have somewhere around +/-700 teams playing 8ball, 9 ball and dj 7 days a week. Our weekly fees are $30 per week for 8 ball, $30 for 9 ball( this may have changed i haven't played only 9 ball in a while) and $48 for DJ regardless if the bar pays all, some or none.

700 teams a week x 30 = $21,000 a week in league fees alone. (This number will be higher as there are several DJ teams.) So lets assume around 20% of teams by dj, which would be a fair guess so 140 teams. To keep the numbers simple lets say 150.

(550x30) + (150x48) = 16500 + 7200+ = $23,700 a week in league fees.


Three sessions of 13, 14, 13 weeks = 40 We have 6 weeks of playoffs, 2 at the end of each session but not all the teams play so to keep it simple i'll leave it off.

23,700 x 40 = $948,000 in weekly fees alone. This isn't including the $25 yearly league fee, which i guess most gets sent back to corporate so I'll leave it off as well.

Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

 

[cuesmith]

First let me say I have no pony in this race, just wanted to throw out what i see in my local apa league. Let me also say apa lo you sound like a great lo and I wish i had you as mine, if you ran my apa it might be the biggest in the nation, right now we are in the top 10 in members.

The op was about the math so lets DO THE MATH. These numbers will not be exact but just give an idea of the apa in my area. Like i stated before my region is in the top 10, I don't know exact rank but i have heard as high at 2 as low as 7. We have somewhere around +/-700 teams playing 8ball, 9 ball and dj 7 days a week. Our weekly fees are $30 per week for 8 ball, $30 for 9 ball( this may have changed i haven't played only 9 ball in a while) and $48 for DJ regardless if the bar pays all, some or none.

700 teams a week x 30 = $21,000 a week in league fees alone. (This number will be higher as there are several DJ teams.) So lets assume around 20% of teams by dj, which would be a fair guess so 140 teams. To keep the numbers simple lets say 150.

(550x30) + (150x48) = 16500 + 7200+ = $23,700 a week in league fees.


Three sessions of 13, 14, 13 weeks = 40 We have 6 weeks of playoffs, 2 at the end of each session but not all the teams play so to keep it simple i'll leave it off.

23,700 x 40 = $948,000 in weekly fees alone. This isn't including the $25 yearly league fee, which i guess most gets sent back to corporate so I'll leave it off as well.

Lets look at payout:
Weekly division winner get a trophy. No cash pay outs during regular season at all. Only cash payouts are during the 3 team tournaments after the end of each session. 8 ball and 9 ball played on different weekends, same format. Tri cup after summer, money cup after fall and cities after spring. Tri cup & money cup winners get into cities. All Spring session winners also in cities.

8 ball works as follows.

We have 4 locations that host the event. Teams are broken into groups of 6 for a mini bracket single elimination. Win 3 games win your bracket. 800 to the winning team 200 to the loser of the final match. $1000 per bracket. Usually 10 brackets per location for money cup and tri cup. So that 10 per location times 4. So each money /tri cup is 40,000 in cash back out to the teams or 2 weeks of total weekly dues.. 9 ball is the same just with about the same number of teams so we will keep it simply and 2X it. So for each cup 40,000 x 4 cups( 8 tri, 9tri 8money, 9 money)= 160,000.


Cities is different, with teams winning berths to Vegas plus some cash. My team didn't make it so I'm not 100% sure about the payout last year. We send the winning team from each. Entry fee paid plus each team is given 2500 they can use for travel. 2 teams x 2500. Cash pay outs break down about the same except you got to go deeper to get there so there are less teams willing but to keep it simple we will call it the same as the other plus 5000 for the 2 winners. So 45000 x2 = 90,000 payout for cities. So that 160,000(cups) + 90,000(cities) = 250,000 in payouts.

Recap
$948000 in - 250,000 out = 698,000 difference. Given my numbers that's a 26.3% payout. Even less considering the fact we are closer to 750 total teams and i didn't include weekly dues for 6 weeks of playoffs where during week 1 4 teams play then week 2 2 teams are playing out of every division on every night.

Conclusion: 20% seems about right for my apa league, and my lo is making a freaking killing!!!!

No doubt the LO's must be doing all right. I just had some moron LO from Pennsylvania call my cell phone and leave a threatening message. I called him back and it seems that he believes I'm entitled to my opinion as long as I didn't tell people in AZ billiards about it. I guess he's afraid it'll cut into his bottom line if people realize how bad they're being taken advantage of! Well, "POOL LEAGUE BOB" from Penn, I really don't care who you knock my cues to, as you threatened to do in your message, as I can't possibly make enough cues to fill the demand for them in the rest of my lifetime anyway! And besides that I could care less how much money you, Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart make anyway. I just have a problem how you make it! Using the 23 rule to force teams to break up is a travesty that all players should rebel against. It only penalizes you for improving unless you play the sandbagging numbers game which isn't pool in any sense of the word!
I've long since done as some have advised and quit playing in the APA. That doesn't mean I'll stand by quietly as they rape the sport!
This post is specifically for "Pool League Bob" the classless moron who chose to call me with the stupid threats! Of course he probably hides under an alias when and if he posts here. His type are usually too cowardly to confront someone directly and only snipes from under his rock!