Help...my funamentals suck!!!
- Thread starter railbird25
- Start date
With all due respect, I have spent hours watching matches at super slow speeds so I can watch players actions and your totally clueless.
I've counted the frames, have you?
You're right that I didn't read your post carefully, my bad. I do follow what you're saying about the back and forward strokes sort of matching rhyhmically.
I don't wanna seem like I'm trying to pick a fight with you, but counting frames doesn't really qualify you to instruct about the best way to stroke a ball. Randy's decades as a high level pool instructor gives his words more weight... unless you have some other qualifications?
Either way you come off like kind of a tool when you call a respected instructor "clueless".
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I'm nothing special as a player or teacher but I've taught and played enough to know the pause is a good thing, and my only goal was to help the original poster.
If your goal is the same, you shouldn't knock the pause. It works. It's not ugly and it's not something that only terrible beginners use. And I never said go back, pause, and then go forward with a "sudden burst of speed". If you clicked those links in my post you will see Thorsten (as high level as it gets) using the pause to make tough cuts.
I will acknowledge that not all good players use it, and even those who do won't use it on every shot. But there is ZERO question in my mind that a player should use it as a diagnostic/learning tool until they can refine it into a more natural back-to-forward stroke like the kind you see shane and most other pros use.
I don't wanna seem like I'm trying to pick a fight with you, but counting frames doesn't really qualify you to instruct about the best way to stroke a ball. Randy's decades as a high level pool instructor gives his words more weight... unless you have some other qualifications?
Either way you come off like kind of a tool when you call a respected instructor "clueless".
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I'm nothing special as a player or teacher but I've taught and played enough to know the pause is a good thing, and my only goal was to help the original poster.
If your goal is the same, you shouldn't knock the pause. It works. It's not ugly and it's not something that only terrible beginners use. And I never said go back, pause, and then go forward with a "sudden burst of speed". If you clicked those links in my post you will see Thorsten (as high level as it gets) using the pause to make tough cuts.
I will acknowledge that not all good players use it, and even those who do won't use it on every shot. But there is ZERO question in my mind that a player should use it as a diagnostic/learning tool until they can refine it into a more natural back-to-forward stroke like the kind you see shane and most other pros use.
I'm very glad that you have reread my accurate post and now agree with me.
When someone says they have taken the time to research video of players playing at their absolute best and that the frame count matches, any decent instructor worth his salt should at least take note. However, this was not the case. Instead I get a one line response full of pejorative undertones just telling me I am wrong with no counterarguments, and no examples to the contrary. Just putting the word 'respectfully' doesn't make it respectful.
If you have video evidence and/or photo evidence to say something is true, then you can talk with authority on a subject. If an instructor says otherwise, then I am fully within my rights to say he's clueless on a subject. I don't know about the rest of his instruction... but lets just say that if this indicative of his teaching ability and his close minded attitude, I wouldn't be taking any lessons off him any time soon.
There is only right and wrong. I'm right and your both wrong.
There is only fact and fiction. I'm talking fact and your both talking fiction.
'The pause' is only useful for those people to that don't have a decisive change of direction. However, when wrongly applied it destroys the one-two rhythm of a good stroke. Your description if literally followed would fall under that category.
Yes you did.
You said "You can gradually smooth it out to a deliberate backswing and a very gradual transition to forward swing... half a second instead of 1 second"
A deliberate (slower) backstroke...stop and hold for half a second and then deliver as normal with a sudden burst of speed. Bow and Arrow action.
Funny thing is I see Thorsten do exactly what I said. It's slightly more staccato in movement than some. I don't see mismatched acceleration and rhythm... one thing for sure, it certainly isn't that bow and arrow cue action that you and randy recommended.
With all due respect, I dare say that Randy spends more time reviewing videos of players (actually studying and reviewing them, not just watching) than anyone else on this forum.
It has been my experience that he usually knows exactly what he is talking about.
Steve
It has been my experience that he usually knows exactly what he is talking about.
Steve
Spend a couple of days with me in pool school. I'll have you beating up on those schoolgirls in no time!! :wink:
Hey, I'm going to be in Raleigh running a charity tournament at Babineaus on May 15 to raise money for an animal rescue group...scotch doubles format. Spread the word, and I hope you can make it out for a fun afternoon of pool for a good cause.
Steve
Geometry, I didn't say I agreed. Can't win an argument with that old trick 
You seem to have a pretty black and white definition of things. But if we're absolutely wrong, what about the pros who use (and even teach) that pause? Do guys like Thorsten or Niels Feijen have bad mechanics, or do it right but teach it wrong?
If you need video evidence to believe something, then can you look at Thorsten's video that I linked to and tell me with a straight face that you do NOT see a VERY CLEAR pause at the end of the backswing?
Here's where you're really not making sense:
The words "very gradual" do not exactly scream "suddenly" do they? Even if the shot ENDS at 15 mph, you can accelerate to that smoothly. You don't need to come out of the pause like an olympic sprinter at the blocks.
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And for the record, players do not go back with anything near the same speed as they go forward. So yes, I'm saying go back, pause, and go forward faster than you went back.
Out of curiousity I picked some videos at random to count frames for backswing and forward swing.
Johnny archer: back 8 frames, forward 4
Johnny again: back 12 frames, forward 7
Francisco Bustamante: back 13 frames, forward 8 (3 frames of pause)
Corey Deuel: back 17 frames, forward 6.
Corey again: back 15 frames, forward 7. (2 frames of pause)
...and in the case of that Hohmann video, it's back 15 frames, pause 6, forward in 5.
So yeah, you're dead wrong on this, and I wasted 30 minutes of my life advancing frames on video... just in case you knew something different from what various instructors teach (and what my own experience tells me).
You seem like one of those posters who is more concerned with winning arguments than finding out what's true and what's not. I suspect you've never posted something like "I was absolutely 100% wrong, sorry". Don't be sad about your very first loss
it's ok to lose some, there are plenty of other battles to fight. We can still be friends. I want my promise ring back though.
You seem to have a pretty black and white definition of things. But if we're absolutely wrong, what about the pros who use (and even teach) that pause? Do guys like Thorsten or Niels Feijen have bad mechanics, or do it right but teach it wrong?
If you need video evidence to believe something, then can you look at Thorsten's video that I linked to and tell me with a straight face that you do NOT see a VERY CLEAR pause at the end of the backswing?
Here's where you're really not making sense:
The words "very gradual" do not exactly scream "suddenly" do they? Even if the shot ENDS at 15 mph, you can accelerate to that smoothly. You don't need to come out of the pause like an olympic sprinter at the blocks.
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And for the record, players do not go back with anything near the same speed as they go forward. So yes, I'm saying go back, pause, and go forward faster than you went back.
Out of curiousity I picked some videos at random to count frames for backswing and forward swing.
Johnny archer: back 8 frames, forward 4
Johnny again: back 12 frames, forward 7
Francisco Bustamante: back 13 frames, forward 8 (3 frames of pause)
Corey Deuel: back 17 frames, forward 6.
Corey again: back 15 frames, forward 7. (2 frames of pause)
...and in the case of that Hohmann video, it's back 15 frames, pause 6, forward in 5.
So yeah, you're dead wrong on this, and I wasted 30 minutes of my life advancing frames on video... just in case you knew something different from what various instructors teach (and what my own experience tells me).
You seem like one of those posters who is more concerned with winning arguments than finding out what's true and what's not. I suspect you've never posted something like "I was absolutely 100% wrong, sorry". Don't be sad about your very first loss
it's ok to lose some, there are plenty of other battles to fight. We can still be friends. I want my promise ring back though.Geometry...Randyg is the top instructor in the U.S. I daresay that you would do well to think about what he said to you. 
Look at players like Buddy Hall and Allison Fisher, both of which have a longer, defined pause at the end of the backswing. There are many other top players who have a much shorter transition from backswing to forward stroke. There is no "one size fits all" type of stroke process...and that's what we teach. We fit the stroke to the student, rather than the student to the stroke.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Look at players like Buddy Hall and Allison Fisher, both of which have a longer, defined pause at the end of the backswing. There are many other top players who have a much shorter transition from backswing to forward stroke. There is no "one size fits all" type of stroke process...and that's what we teach. We fit the stroke to the student, rather than the student to the stroke.Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
If you want to brush up on many of the fundamentals, I have links to some good videos, articles, and other resources here:
Enjoy, and good luck with your game,
Dave
PS: As others have pointed out, there is nothing better than taking a lesson with a qualified and experienced instructor.
......rofl.... so poor- usualy it sounds like think before shooting then shoot without thinkin-
in your case it is like: writing without thinkin...........
Geometry...Randyg is the top instructor in the U.S. I daresay that you would do well to think about what he said to you.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I with what Scott an Randy are trying to get across...there will alway be those who travel their own path without ever knowning what they don't know,an you will never convince them other wise..
Geometry, I didn't say I agreed. Can't win an argument with that old trick
You said that you followed what I was saying about the backstroke and throughstroke matching up.
It means either that a)your in agreement or b)that you have now mastered reading simple sentences and can now comprehend my post. Seems I gave you too much credit by assuming the former.
Something is either right or it is wrong. Something is either pertinent or impertinent.
People that believe otherwise are usually not truth seekers.
One thing is for sure, they don't use the bow and arrow action you were describing. The pro's (when they are playing well) match up pretty well. Some may move more staccato than others and have that 'pause' look but the rhythm still matches.
Its an illusion of staccato movement. Same rhythm. The forearm swings back, the forearm swings through.
You defined your speed of backstroke as "deliberate" - meaning slower than normal speed.
You defined your "very gradual" as half a second stop at the top of the backstroke.
We have to assume that your going to deliver it at normal speed.
Slow start... Hold for half a second... normal full speed delivery.
So your action is akin to an archer firing with a bow and arrow.
Did you just pluck these figures out of thin air?
What are you smoking?
Creating animated gifs to refute would be very time consuming, however when I have time I will post a new thread entitled "In Yo Face!". A slightly juvenile title I must admit, however you totally deserve it.
You seem like one of those posters who is more concerned with winning arguments than finding out what's true and what's not. I suspect you've never posted something like "I was absolutely 100% wrong, sorry". Don't be sad about your very first loss
A very hypocritical response from someone who didn't read my original post correctly and started arguing against me. Instead of just saying.. I was wrong... you continue to argue a losing position.
closer to home and cheaper.
Not to be the last thing to do but to get started, watch a player whose game you admire and check out how he sets up. Ask him if he will watch you and point out some obvious shortcomings. Listen to him and PRACTICE. He
will help if you stroke his ego a little. Also, later, for more refinement of your skills spend the money for a good instructor. It could save you 10 years of finding out for yourself.
Not to be the last thing to do but to get started, watch a player whose game you admire and check out how he sets up. Ask him if he will watch you and point out some obvious shortcomings. Listen to him and PRACTICE. He
will help if you stroke his ego a little. Also, later, for more refinement of your skills spend the money for a good instructor. It could save you 10 years of finding out for yourself.
Comfort will come with repetition if your practice is condensed and frequent.
Condensed practice means not sharing a table and not wasting time between shots. Throw fifteen balls out and shoot in any order but play shape to run all fifteen efficiently. Repeat over and over. In an hour you can execute 360 shots. Pace yourself to an average of one shot each 10 seconds.
Frequent means every day or as close to every day as possible.
If you follow this advise for a few months you will become comfortable.
Aim before you get down and then step into the shot. And... watch some video of SVB for a role model as to basics.
Other than speed pool competition, no one should expect to shoot at that pace. Even the pros in tournaments have 30 seconds per shot when a shot clock is involved.
You are not going to learn anything rushing through racks. In practice, you should be taking time to evaluate every shot to see what went right, what went wrong, and what can you learn form the shot.
There is no shot clock in practice!
Steve
