If I was promoting major pool tournaments!

[The Turk]

So, if you have 32 players, you have 16 first round matches....32 table hours(Thrs), then your second round A you have 8 matches...16 Thrs. And your second round B has 8 matches...16 Thrs. And the next round of B is another 8 matches ...16 Thrs. This adds up to 80 Thrs. So, if you have 8 tables, to get this far has taken 10 hours. you have had two half hour breaks...so 11 hours. if you have started at 10 am Saturday....you are now at 9pm. And have used 8 tables all day.

Now for next round of B, you have 4 matches(16Thrs) with 4 tables needed. And the A has 4 matches on 4 tables. So, you have used all 8 tables for 2 more hours to get here. it is now 11pm.

You have used 8 table from 10 am to 11pm. I dont know how big the halls would be, but if it doesn't have 16 plus tables, you are severely cutting intothe prime Saturday evening crowd. Anyway...

Sunday morning rolls around and you have to play still the semis and finals in A....and a round of 4 matches on B, as well as 2 rounds of 2 matches, and so on.

This is for 32 players with your format. I think this clearly shows that you do not understand the logistics or the business of pool. This is simply not a good venture. Can you imaginr the table and time requirements for a 64 player event?

The unfortunate thing is, many owners might actaully try this ridiculous plan. And then they would be turned off tournaments. I think you should stay out of pool promotion, you are bad for the game. An ignorant dreamer.

Some very successful pro-am tournaments are run with almost the exact time and room constraints you claim would not work. I have run and played in hundreds of these event in my playing career. Races to seven or nine can easily exceed an hour to 1.5 hrs. Even among top players. Many of these tournaments consume prime time [like saturday night and late into sunday] for the weekend they are scheduled. RKC's idea may not be fullproof for every dynamic, but it is an idea for hopes to improve the game. Do you think calling some one ridiculous, ignorant and bad for the game is a better way to go? Oh and next time you call someone ignorant you may not want to admit you had to look up the definition of the word. You confessed to being ignorant of the definition of ignorant. That is classic.

 

[iba7467]

You ever watch the "America's Cup" yacht racing? If you do, you WON"T see one boat manufacture advertising during the race...why not?...Because they can't afford to promote the "America's Cup" race...AND turn a profit, so the sponsors that promote the race...have NOTHING to do with boats

I have a sponsor that will make millions off the pool table industry, and therefore it benefits them to sponsor...at the highest levels...I CAN change this industry from the table mechanic level...and up...so does that answer your questions?

Glen

I'm all for it Glen. I did not mean to come off as downing your vision. As soon as you have things lined up, lets us all know so we can show support. Tournaments are a pain in the *** to run and anyone who can run one smoothly, draw crowds, and actually pay the players at the event should be celebrated.

 

[realkingcobra]

I'm all for it Glen. I did not mean to come off as downing your vision. As soon as you have things lined up, lets us all know so we can show support. Tournaments are a pain in the *** to run and anyone who can run one smoothly, draw crowds, and actually pay the players at the event should be celebrated.

I firmly believe the double elimination format of pool tournaments is one of the biggest downfalls of the game. I would rather see players have to play much longer matches to determine the winner, than to have to keep track of someone after they've already lost....to find out if they're going to buy back in or not...and if they are...where, who, and when are they going to play next. I also believe that matches that have run away times, meaning who knows when the players are going to FINALLY get done is way out of control, there needs to be some sort of time limit on how long a match can be played that is fair to all players, which is why I don't really support a race to a certain number of games to determine the winner, but rather a certain amount of time to play...and who's ahead at the end of that time frame is the winner, because whether the final score is 2-1...or 25-24....you'll have a winner at the end of 2 hours...and everything will run on time....every time

 

[jay helfert]

I firmly believe the double elimination format of pool tournaments is one of the biggest downfalls of the game. I would rather see players have to play much longer matches to determine the winner, than to have to keep track of someone after they've already lost....to find out if they're going to buy back in or not...and if they are...where, who, and when are they going to play next. I also believe that matches that have run away times, meaning who knows when the players are going to FINALLY get done is way out of control, there needs to be some sort of time limit on how long a match can be played that is fair to all players, which is why I don't really support a race to a certain number of games to determine the winner, but rather a certain amount of time to play...and who's ahead at the end of that time frame is the winner, because whether the final score is 2-1...or 25-24....you'll have a winner at the end of 2 hours...and everything will run on time....every time

Glen, I like your idea of Single elimination tournaments with longer matches (I prefer two out of three sets, like in tennis). That said I don't agree with the time limit on matches and arbitrary endings after a certain period of time.

What other sport does this? Do they put a time limit on a tennis match for instance? Or a golf tournament? Or a baseball game? I believe that in professional sports a "match" of any designated length must be played out to a conclusion. Shot clocks are fine and work well to speed up slow matches. I would, in fact, like to see shot clocks on all matches from beginning to end. But we need manpower to attend to them, like a ref on every table. What a pleasure it would be to have a good referee on every table; watching the match, keeping time and RACKING BALLS! That takes money too.

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen, I like your idea of Single elimination tournaments with longer matches (I prefer two out of three sets, like in tennis). That said I don't agree with the time limit on matches and arbitrary endings after a certain period of time.

What other sport does this? Do they put a time limit on a tennis match for instance? Or a golf tournament? Or a baseball game? I believe that in professional sports a "match" of any designated length must be played out to a conclusion. Shot clocks are fine and work well to speed up slow matches. I would, in fact, like to see shot clocks on all matches from beginning to end. But we need manpower to attend to them, like a ref on every table. What a pleasure it would be to have a good referee on every table; watching the match, keeping time and RACKING BALLS! That takes money too.

Football, Basketball, Hockey, Boxing, Wrestling, MMA....all have time frames

PS. And Jay, the sports I just listed...all have a hail mary possible change in the winner in the last seconds or minutes of each sport...called last second upsets. In playing 10 ball no holds barred, it can present that same kind of come from behind win, as when Frenchy played Dan Louie. At the start of the last game, the score was 12-9 Louie's favor going to 13. Frenchy got 3 wins in that last game to tie up the match 12-12...but missed the final 10 in a corner pocket, in which Dan came back to the table and made the 10 and won 13-12...but, it could have gone the other way with Frenchy winning 13-12 over Dan...by picking up a hail mary in the last game...with 4 wins in one game

 

[JustinHayes]

.... That said I don't agree with the time limit on matches and arbitrary endings after a certain period of time.

What other sport does this?

To add to the list... let's not forget that the World's MOST POPULAR sport ... Soccer ... has a time limit.


Also, with many more popularly viewed sports that don't have time limits,.... the person the with fastest time wins.


People have short attention spans.

 

[jay helfert]

Football, Basketball, Hockey, Boxing, Wrestling, MMA....all have time frames

Individual sports do not. Tennis, golf, table tennis, badminton. By the way basketball games, baseball games, football games and hockey matches ALL can run variable lengths of time, from quickly to extremely long. This is a factor of how often the clock is stopped. A baseball game can end in only two hours or take well over three hours. Same with basketball. And what about overtimes and extra innings. You want to now say that all baseball and basketball games should be called after two hours. NOT!

I'm sorry my friend but your argument here does not hold water in relation to your argument for a two hour time limit on pool matches.

 

[realkingcobra]

To add to the list... let's not forget that the World's MOST POPULAR sport ... Soccer ... has a time limit

Damit...I missed that one, good catch

 

[realkingcobra]

Rugby...has a time limit

 

[jay helfert]

Rugby...has a time limit

See post #127 above.

 

[realkingcobra]

Individual sports do not. Tennis, golf, table tennis, badminton. By the way basketball games, baseball games, football games and hockey matches ALL can run variable lengths of time, from quickly to extremely long. This is a factor of how often the clock is stopped. A baseball game can end in only two hours or take well over three hours. Same with basketball. And what about overtimes and extra innings. You want to now say that all baseball and basketball games should be called after two hours. NOT!

I'm sorry my friend but your argument here does not hold water in relation to your argument for a two hour time limit on pool matches.

Jay, them extra innings are called overtime because of a tied score at the end of the normal time frame...exta innings are used to break the tie...sometimes they're even called sudden death overtime And with a 30minute break between rounds, that's when any tied score would be played off until there's a winner.

 

[realkingcobra]

Jay, I'm not saying lets change the whole history of the game of pool. What I'm trying to do...and say, is that pool needs to be changed somewhat...in order to make it better in the long run for everyone. In all the sports you've listed already...no one walks around saying I'm a "Pro"...like most pool players do. We have pool players playing with the "Pro's" now...that have no business being there, because if there WAS a skill level test required to get there....a line that had to be crossed BEFORE a player could call themselves a "Pro"....95% of the players today wouldn't get there...in fact...wouldn't even get close. Who would want to watch Golf today....if Tiger Woods was playing in a golf tournament with a bunch of wannabe pro's....which is why you have to have a minimum par score to be called a "PRO" golfer...same thing with bowling...there is a requirement to be called a "PRO"....but not in pool, nope....didn't you know Jay....everyone's a "PRO" that plays pool...or plays at "PRO" level...but what is that PRO level of play? What is it that defines a "PRO" pool player...because there is no...and never has been a line that has to be crossed. If you want pool to grow...then somehow...someway...we're going to have to create that list of WHO the PRO"S are...one way or another. We're going to have to shrink down the time frame the matches are played...so they can fit into a mainstream TV slot, and somehow televise only the best of the best to the world...playing a game that is exciting, fast paced...and entertaining...if pool is ever going to expect to go somewhere, even if that mainstream TV slot is only 2 hours long...once a year to begin with, and the final 2 players of the world...need to get PAID

Glen

 

[justadub]

'cobra, I think an easier analogy for folks to understand (if I even understand, heh) might be golf.

You have someone at your local golf courses that is considered thier "pro". They may actually play in events where there is a cash payout, and that does make them, in effect, "professional" because they are getting paid to do it. As opposed to amateurs, who cannot be paid for playing in a tournament and still be consifered an "amateur."

But to be able to play on the PGA Tour, one must qualify through what I believe they call "Q-school", where players compete to earn the right to participate in the PGA events without qualifying. The highest level of golf, the true "pro's". The Ladies Tour has something similar, as does The European Tour.

There are lower levels of "professional" golf, as well, played all over the country. Those tournaments generally have players who are still very good at what they are doing, just not good enough to play with the big boys all the time. Those players can often still try to enter many PGA tournaments, by qualifying. But those spots are limited, and those who already have qualified via Q-School are already "in".

What you're describing for pool seems similar to this concept, and really makes quite a bit of sense, the more I follow the thread. Having some sort of top level, the real "pro" level, recognized will allow for any sort of tour to be structured. The key element that you haven't described yet is what kind of sanctioning body will be in place to administer these rules, tests, and qualifications. I expect that info is in your "can't talk about yet" file....

If you can pull that part of sucessfully, much of the rest will fall into place, and over time will give some sort of central starting point for rules and tournaments. It really is a grand plan, and a worthy one.

Getting everyone on-board still remains the challenge, and I look forward to watching this all unfold.

 

[cuesmith]

Think bigger people, I'm not talking about the $7.00 having fun entry level pool tournament, lets say I'm talking about a once a year 10 ball world championship minimum added $100,000 pool tournament...LIMITED to 64 players...single elimination, ALL getting paid "Real money" pool tournament

Glen

PS, if I had to guess though, the added would be closer to $500,000.

Glen, I certainly would support anyone trying to promote a tournament, and having owned a pool bar and two pool rooms myself, I have a little experience in running tournaments. What I'd like to know is who you'll get to put up the added money? It's easy to throw around big numbers and ideas, but getting someone else to back them up is another thing all together. I wish you well with your project, but I'll be surprised if you can raise the kind of added money you're talking about.
Good Luck, and I mean this sincerely.

Sherm

 

[jay helfert]

Jay, I'm not saying lets change the whole history of the game of pool. What I'm trying to do...and say, is that pool needs to be changed somewhat...in order to make it better in the long run for everyone. In all the sports you've listed already...no one walks around saying I'm a "Pro"...like most pool players do. We have pool players playing with the "Pro's" now...that have no business being there, because if there WAS a skill level test required to get there....a line that had to be crossed BEFORE a player could call themselves a "Pro"....95% of the players today wouldn't get there...in fact...wouldn't even get close. Who would want to watch Golf today....if Tiger Woods was playing in a golf tournament with a bunch of wannabe pro's....which is why you have to have a minimum par score to be called a "PRO" golfer...same thing with bowling...there is a requirement to be called a "PRO"....but not in pool, nope....didn't you know Jay....everyone's a "PRO" that plays pool...or plays at "PRO" level...but what is that PRO level of play? What is it that defines a "PRO" pool player...because there is no...and never has been a line that has to be crossed. If you want pool to grow...then somehow...someway...we're going to have to create that list of WHO the PRO"S are...one way or another. We're going to have to shrink down the time frame the matches are played...so they can fit into a mainstream TV slot, and somehow televise only the best of the best to the world...playing a game that is exciting, fast paced...and entertaining...if pool is ever going to expect to go somewhere, even if that mainstream TV slot is only 2 hours long...once a year to begin with, and the final 2 players of the world...need to get PAID

Glen

The powers that be at ESPN already have a way of "shrinking" down a pool match for television. They call it editing. By the way, a two hour time slot on TV has anywhere from 88 to 96 minutes of actual air time for a match to be shown. Knowing this you might want to limit the matches to 90 minutes and not two hours.

Did you know Glen that when pool tournaments are televised in Asia (Philippines, China, Japan, Taiwan etc.), they show full length matches with minimal interruptions. I believe this is true also in Europe. Races to Eleven that take two hours or longer are shown in their entirety. Why over there you might ask? Answer - the ratings are good! Just a couple of things for you to think about as you plan your next step.

 

[cuesmith]

Excellent thoughts justadub. Well said. Normally, I try and be diplomatic too. But this fellow has put me over the edge.lol

Twenty years working on this? So, what we see it in about another 50?

Fortune 500? LOL. And fixing pool tables? LOL. Ever hear of a billionaire who took on the pool world? Then couldn't pay Efren?

I will say it outright. I think you are an idiot. And, I think you are probably really happy and stoned today on 4/20. End of ridiculous discussion for me.

OK and I'll say it outright, you're an A$$! I'll admit I'm also skeptical of Glen's ability to get the financial backing he'll need to make this work, but your comments are outragious! You're another "keyboard commando" who likes to take potshots at real people, trying to do real things, when you hide behind an alias! I'll say it one more time, "You're an ass!"

 

[u12armresl]

Sherm,

Just curious, how is you calling someone names different than the person you are talking about calling someone names?

 

[cuesmith]

Sherm,

Just curious, how is you calling someone names different than the person you are talking about calling someone names?

It's not really I guess, but I felt like giving him some of his own medicine. And I might add, what I said was not nearly as inflamatory or "off base" as I feel his several comments were. If you were offended, I apologize to you. Not Him. I'm done!

 

[realkingcobra]

Glen, I certainly would support anyone trying to promote a tournament, and having owned a pool bar and two pool rooms myself, I have a little experience in running tournaments. What I'd like to know is who you'll get to put up the added money? It's easy to throw around big numbers and ideas, but getting someone else to back them up is another thing all together. I wish you well with your project, but I'll be surprised if you can raise the kind of added money you're talking about.
Good Luck, and I mean this sincerely.

Sherm

Believe it or not, the money part is not a problem the problem is in the industry as a whole, from the table manufactures, distributors, pool room owners, right on down to the table mechanics that work on pool tables...and the public that buys pool tables, and yet...there lays the solution to the "Professional" pool players of the world. Solve the problems in the table industry...and you solve the problems of players making a living playing pool.

See, cushion manufactures, table manufactures, cloth manufactures, slate manufactures....are not on the same sheet of music.

Cushion manufactures don't tell table manufactures...at what thickness of rail...will your cushions perform their best?

What is the best way to install your cloth...to get the best play from it?

I bought one of your pool tables, but the guys that brought it out and set it up...did a lousy job of it...and I'm not a happy customer....what are you going to do about it?

My table mechanic says he can't staple the cloth down on the slates on my pool tables anymore because the slate liners have fallen apart because they're made out of particle board....and wants to charge me $500 to fix them....why is that....my tables are only 5 years old?

Why...if they're Brunswick GC's...do they play so differently in every room I go to?

Why are major pool tournaments always held in Casinos...I bought 16 9ft tables...can't the manufacture sponsor some kind of tournaments at my location to help promote their pool tables for sale....or don't they care about me anymore...after I've receive their pool tables...and paid for them?

Solve these problems...and you're on the right track to fixing this industry
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Diamond today...is the only table manufacture that puts out a 3 piece slate for tables that does not require the use of a slate backer board for installing the bed cloths....which means down the road...installing the bed cloths is never going to be a problem.

Diamond today...is the only table manufacture that builds the most perfect commercial 9ft tables on the planet...because of the use of the one piece slates and the dymondwood rails and the ultimate leveling system.

Diamond today builds the best coin-operated pool table on the market, hands down second to none.

It took me 10 years to get this far with Diamond, but I'm just about ready to turn the corner and go into my next plan...which won't take me but about another year...to get to the next level...THAT level is the one that will produce the sponsorship money to start the skill level testing to define the level of "Pro"...put into a game of pool exciting to play and or watch on TV, or the internet...which will in turn produce the sponsorship money to support the other games of pool that players love to play...to the point of world championships in 8ball, 1pocket, banks, 14.1, and 9ball.

I have a product coming out that will generate the sponsorship money I'm talking about. I could keep the profits all to myself, but then I wouldn't be changing anything about the direction of pool...and that to me is far more important than keeping the money. This product is shared by a fortune 500company as the manufacture...and is an expendable item...used over and over again...millions of times over...and will forever change the game of pool...and how it's played...and changing this industry to use this product...is more of an education than a challenge to promote. It will be used in the pool, snooker, and billiards industry world wide...and once it's introduced...it'll never be changed as long as pool tables of all sorts are still being manufactured...and there is no "IF"...it's only a matter of "when"....this product WILL be on the market...and world wide so fast it'll make your head spin.

I'm not saying any more about this at this time.

Glen