How Do You Aim By Feel

Exactly! I play totally by feel, I've just hit balls so many times that I "feel" how to aim the shot. I don't consciously 'aim' exactly, I just see the object ball just know how to hit it. I don't have a point on the object ball I look at....it's hard to explain, I just know when the ball looks right when I'm ready to shoot.
Good point !
well i play totaly by feel an what i allso do is i go look at the ob an aim it to the pocket i wanna shoot it into an i find the ghost ball an shot line go back to my CB step into my shot i stroke 2-3 times then i SPF the shot or when im practicing certain shots i dont stroke at all just SPF i keep my eye on the ghost ball :thumbup:
Circle the shot. Look the ball in the hole, circle away and around to the cb and then approach cb and get down into the shot.
Good routine for the hard shots

allso i been playin for 13 years so am kinda Experience on how to position my body so its natural for me now

This thread has more potential than any of the threads on aiming techniques. Pool is a game of TOUCH and FEEL, not geometry or mechanics! The best players rarely have to line up anything, they know how to hit the shot immediately. It is our subconscious mind at work, making all the calculations for us.

Have you ever kicked a stone down the street? As you are walking toward the stone, your subconscious mind calculates if you must alter your footsteps to line up properly for the next kick. Try it some time if you don't believe me.

Private Helfert - US Army 1966-1972. PFC to Spec 4 and back! :rolleyes:
Jay is a natural !

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The short posts are the sweet ones. If you got natural talent you do not need all this stuff about systems and technical clutter. You just do it !

I think the bottom line is go pocket a million balls and get back to me !
 
Have you read Bob Byrne's work on the physics of Masse? He provides an interesting principle that can be used and it helped me to learn better control and "feel" for the masse shot.

Not sure if it is in his first or second book but it worth a read. While 90% of a masse is feel the other ten percent helps you get there quicker.
 
Thnik this aiming by "feel" is maybe by expierence. When i say experence a shot that is done out and out you say to yourself. I know how to do this!
 
Koop...good thread!

I learned to aim by feel and figured there wasn't anything else out there any better than that. I saw all the ads for training aids and the secrets of the pros. You can buy a laser and see the shot line or set up balls at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 hit positions on your table to learn the angles. You can do countless drills on low percentage shots or common shots to burn the angles in your brain. But what if you could speed up or simplify the process? Would you invest a little effort?

I am and it is helping my "feel" aiming system a bunch. To double check my aim I get back up off the shot and get back down employing a pivot system. It helps me to feel the correct angles and hardwire them in my brain before I shoot, not after I miss and try to guess what went wrong.

Did you ever twist your wrist or cock it to the side as you steered the CB and missed the shot. Its pretty hard to have good mechanics when your not lined up straight. Your pool brain is compensating for incorrect alignment by adding or subtracting english or making you jump up, etc. You know what I'm saying.

Since I started doing this a week ago my stroke has straightened out quite a bit. I'm starting to get down on the shots better and I'm not losing the angle or steering as much. That brings up your confidence level and then good things begin to happen. You don't have to use the pivot systems when you play, but you can use them as a training aid until the feel gets better. Kind of like a systems check while your down on the shot. Then you can get back up, figure out your english and speed and get back down on the correct aiming line.

BTW, there is alot of "feel" in the pivot system I use.
 
I've tried a lot of different aiming systems and even when the shot looks perfect, if it doesn't feel right it's not going in. When it feels right but looks completely wrong, it almost always goes in.
 
I've tried a lot of different aiming systems and even when the shot looks perfect, if it doesn't feel right it's not going in. When it feels right but looks completely wrong, it almost always goes in.

It's funny you should say that because I fought with this notion as I moved toward relying completely on feel. It was a mental transition that took months. I would calculate (for lack of a better word) the aim-point and my instinct would yield a different result. You have to be confident as well. You actually have to BELIEVE in what you're doing. The end result is, I've accepted failure as a possible outcome. I know this sounds contradictory when you're trying to be perfect as much as possible but it's actually a huge relief. The moment you accept the fact that you will occasionally miss and you cannot control this, your confidence actually goes up. It was then that I became comfortable relying completely on feel.
 
It's funny you should say that because I fought with this notion as I moved toward relying completely on feel. It was a mental transition that took months. I would calculate (for lack of a better word) the aim-point and my instinct would yield a different result. You have to be confident as well. You actually have to BELIEVE in what you're doing. The end result is, I've accepted failure as a possible outcome. I know this sounds contradictory when you're trying to be perfect as much as possible but it's actually a huge relief. The moment you accept the fact that you will occasionally miss and you cannot control this, your confidence actually goes up. It was then that I became comfortable relying completely on feel.

This is a really great post and I believe the concept is something all players can gain from.

Chris
 
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Hey Koop,

Even though I am not a fan of most aiming systems (not sure what CTE is), there's another level of thought that kinda plays into this. "Feel" is ALWAYS there. For example, speed control is ONLY feel, no system has been developed for that. I think, as a player improves, even if they're using an aiming method, an internal feel method begins to penetrate their game. Perhaps they use it as a red-alert like, if it doesn't feel right, get up. Perhaps they use feel to know when their aiming-method's limitations have been met. I don't think any decent player completely ignores their instincts.


In a nutshell.....Systems are nothing more than "tools" that aid in gaining feel.....and the end decision is always feel...but your end feel is always determined by some kind of system.....even if that "system" is hitting the shot 1 million times.

For shape there are tools like knowing that a half ball hit will result in both
balls traveling approxamatly the same distance...a 1/4 ball hit will result in the CB traveling approx. twice the distance....etc etc.....When you pocket a ball (or play) safe...this calculation is part of what helps you gain feel........I would also assume that you shorten or lengthen your stroke based on the power you want to apply to the CB.....That shortening your stroke is a system for applying less power.

Granted....our brains can calculate these things in the flash of an eye....and at some point we "forget" that we are even using a system to "aid" in determining feel.

Someone referred to systems as training wheels....I think of systems more as the alphabet....Before you can read you need to learn the alphabet....As you get experienced at reading you get to the point where the letters really don't matter and you even forget that your using the letters to read.

Taht is why you can raed snetences taht hvae moajor typeos and or incorrect sepellnig..........almost as fast as when the letters are in the correct spot.
 
In a nutshell.....Systems are nothing more than "tools" that aid in gaining feel.....and the end decision is always feel...but your end feel is always determined by some kind of system.....even if that "system" is hitting the shot 1 million times.

For shape there are tools like knowing that a half ball hit will result in both
balls traveling approxamatly the same distance...a 1/4 ball hit will result in the CB traveling approx. twice the distance....etc etc.....When you pocket a ball (or play) safe...this calculation is part of what helps you gain feel........I would also assume that you shorten or lengthen your stroke based on the power you want to apply to the CB.....That shortening your stroke is a system for applying less power.

Granted....our brains can calculate these things in the flash of an eye....and at some point we "forget" that we are even using a system to "aid" in determining feel.

Someone referred to systems as training wheels....I think of systems more as the alphabet....Before you can read you need to learn the alphabet....As you get experienced at reading you get to the point where the letters really don't matter and you even forget that your using the letters to read.

Taht is why you can raed snetences taht hvae moajor typeos and or incorrect sepellnig..........almost as fast as when the letters are in the correct spot.

Okay but here's the kicker - I think someone can learn to be a great pool player having never learned a traditional aiming system.

What's more, there comes a point when an aiming system might actually inhibit your ability to develop your feel. If a player ignores his/her instincts, they may never see grand improvements in their game.
 
Only sissies give red reps for threads that have legitimate questions.

And the question has legitimate points because,,,,what.

What the OP is trying to do is quantify "feel". Now think about that for a second.
 
This is well thought out Koop - I'll try to convert you. :smile:

1. Is feel the same for all players in determining what to do and how to use it?

When a batter hits a 90 mph fast ball, or a golfer hit a 5 iron 200 yards in a 15 mph wind to within 3' of a cup, what aiming system do they use?

Maybe it's "feel" but I would call it "visualizing the shot". I don't think the term "feel" is accurate. I think it would best be described as "mentally seeing the shot", which is followed by summoning the stroke needed to accomplish it. Feel is part of the stroke.

2. Is feel transferrable from one player to the next and can it be taught?

Yes - if they have a repeatable stroke they can be shown which shots to practice to develop their visualzation techniques. Thin cuts and banks, for example, can be taught with no aiming at all, just visualization of the OB path.

3. How is feel geometrically correct over all other methods?

Mental visualization includes depth, speed, spin and other forces that affect the aim - even humidity. It is three dimensional taking into account the position of the rails and the other pockets. Since the OB is always locked onto the destination pocket, there are fewer choices. Other techniques are 2 dimensional so inherently would be limited.

4. Can feel be illustrated on a Wie table?

No, because the wei table is two dimensional and it doesn't give a player the correct perspective we are used to. Depth perception is needed to properly visualize a shot.

5. Can the exactness of feel be shown in an algebraic or mathmatical formula which seems to be the final word to validate a system?

I am not a math or physics whiz, but if it can physically be done, then I believe it can be mathematically proven. After reading the CTE thread and a few of the descriptions from the players who use it, I believe all players use similar visual cues (the edges and centers) to align. But to me that's still not total aim. Aim must add in depth perception, the players head position, speed, spin and the other forces that affect the shot -"mentally seeing the shot". I will add that playing on tight pockets requires more exactness and better visualization - playing on such a table develops sharpness.

6. Is feel the same for an APA3 or anything in between compared to a short stop or pro?


No. The better player will have much higher levels of precision. I saw Johnny Archer shoot between two balls that could have had as little as 1/8th inch of clearance - I couldn't believe he could do it. Now, that's visualization.

7. Is feel consistent and exact from one shot to the next or from one day to the next?


No - the conditions change. As pool players, it is up to us to adapt to different conditions and make adjustments. Climate, equipment, lighting, surroundings - all have an effect on the shot and we do adapt, some faster than others.


8. How do you know if your feel manipulation is correct or incorrect before taking the shot?

No way of knowing, but doing so and making a mistake is feedback for the next visualization. I will say, in fact, that if I can't visualize the shot properly, that is my first clue that something is amiss.

Chris

Hey Chris, I know from your videos that you're a heck of a player and use feel or whatever you want to aim successfully. But about a year or so ago I had a conversation with Bill S. who told me a story regarding the two of you on the phone as he was teaching you a pivot based sytem of Hal's which always started out with inside english and aiming at only 3 spots on the OB along with a pivot.

He told you to forget everything you've ever learned such as contact points, the pocket, ghostball, fractions and overlaps during the process. I think he said you were setting up shots to shoot in the side pocket that ranged from about 3 degrees for starters to 90 degrees at the end with every angle in between and you made everything using those 3 aim points with the offset and pivot. He couldn't tell you how and why it worked and you couldn't figure it out either but it did.

After it was over, he said you guys were just chatting and you started laughing because you were holding the phone with one hand and shooting one handed with the other using the offset and pivot and knocking shots in the full length of the table and couldn't believe it.

Am I remembering this correctly? I know it's tough to break old habits but I was just curious to know what your thoughts were on this.

Thanks,
Koop
 
With all of the threads and posts about CTE and the way "Feel" comes into play
(subconscious adjustments) nobody has ever described how to aim by feel and why it's the best way to aim. Obviously many think it is the best way to aim because it eventually takes over at some point on ALL aiming systems including ghost ball. Here are some questions regarding it:

1. Is feel the same for all players in determining what to do and how to use it?
2. Is feel transferrable from one player to the next and can it be taught?
3. How is feel geometrically correct over all other methods?
4. Can feel be illustrated on a Wie table?
5. Can the exactness of feel be shown in an algebraic or mathmatical formula which seems to be the final word to validate a system?
6. Is feel the same for an APA3 or anything in between compared to a short stop or pro?
7. Is feel consistent and exact from one shot to the next or from one day to the next?
8. How do you know if your feel manipulation is correct or incorrect before taking the shot?

I haven't read all the other threads, but I can give you one piece of advise. The quickest way to obtain feel is to use the ghost ball method of shooting in CONJUNCTION with seeing the tangent line while you are shooting the cue ball towards the ghost ball. By doing this your eyes are REALLY focusing on the object ball, not some path or whatever to the object ball (used in the earlier stages of aiming).

I imagine the cue ball following this tangent line and the POSITION AND SPEED OF THE CUE BALL will be just amazing. I see exactly where the cue is going and it makes feeling the distance to be traveled much easier because you are hitting the object ball with much more accuracy.
 
Hey Chris, I know from your videos that you're a heck of a player and use feel or whatever you want to aim successfully. But about a year or so ago I had a conversation with Bill S. who told me a story regarding the two of you on the phone as he was teaching you a pivot based sytem of Hal's which always started out with inside english and aiming at only 3 spots on the OB along with a pivot.

He told you to forget everything you've ever learned such as contact points, the pocket, ghostball, fractions and overlaps during the process. I think he said you were setting up shots to shoot in the side pocket that ranged from about 3 degrees for starters to 90 degrees at the end with every angle in between and you made everything using those 3 aim points with the offset and pivot. He couldn't tell you how and why it worked and you couldn't figure it out either but it did.

After it was over, he said you guys were just chatting and you started laughing because you were holding the phone with one hand and shooting one handed with the other using the offset and pivot and knocking shots in the full length of the table and couldn't believe it.

Am I remembering this correctly? I know it's tough to break old habits but I was just curious to know what your thoughts were on this.

Thanks,
Koop

Koop,

I only put up my "in stroke" videos :wink:

Yes, that was my experience with CTE. Once you have the aim point set, it's totally repeatable.

At some point I plan to experiment a little more with CTE to make certain shots easier and improve my percentages. For example, shooting that same shot (small angle cut, down table along the rail) is a really good CTE shot. Spot shots, that angle, is a good CTE shot too. I had a lot of other things to work on first - but it's getting there.


Chris
 
Koop,

I only put up my "in stroke" videos :wink:

Yes, that was my experience with CTE. Once you have the aim point set, it's totally repeatable.

At some point I plan to experiment a little more with CTE to make certain shots easier and improve my percentages. For example, shooting that same shot (small angle cut, down table along the rail) is a really good CTE shot. Spot shots, that angle, is a good CTE shot too. I had a lot of other things to work on first - but it's getting there.


Chris

This shot, you mentioned, and a really hairy cut are the two shots I love to use it with. Takes the guess work out.
 
I have not read this thread, just responding to the original post.


This is very ironic and somewhat of a paradox. You are trying to pin down a system for shooting by feel.

Technically it is impossible. Actually, if you make a sysytem for shooting by feel, it would no longer BE shooting by feel. That IS the definintion of it. Just shooting without using a defined sysytem.

So if you are ever able to really nail down th shooting by feel system, then we would have to have a NEW definition of what shooting by feel is. Because NOW shooting by feel would have to be something outside of the OLD shooting by feel, which has now become a quantified system! Get it?

I know feel can be a part of a system. For example, if you use a kicking system you still have a feel incorporated into it. The system may say that this is the spot, but from experience you know that when the balls lay in this situation that you must go just a bit shorter to be successful, etc.


here is a good lesson on the aiming by feel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q4jEPmHFa8 :thumbup:


I love that video!:D



Jw
 
Koop,

I only put up my "in stroke" videos :wink:

Yes, that was my experience with CTE. Once you have the aim point set, it's totally repeatable.

At some point I plan to experiment a little more with CTE to make certain shots easier and improve my percentages. For example, shooting that same shot (small angle cut, down table along the rail) is a really good CTE shot. Spot shots, that angle, is a good CTE shot too. I had a lot of other things to work on first - but it's getting there.


Chris

So, putting up those "in stroke" videos; is that like reverse psychology to get propspective opponents to challenge you? :D

JoeyA
 
This thread has turned out to be quite interesting with some well thought out responses and good points.

Here are the original questions I asked and the general majority consensus regarding aiming by feel:

1. Is feel the same for all players in determining what to do and how to use it?
a. "feel" is something you develop on your own.
b. Probably not because different people learn in different ways.
c. Maybe it's "feel" but I would call it "visualizing the shot". I don't think the term "feel" is accurate.
d. No

2. Is feel transferrable from one player to the next and can it be taught?
a. Nope, it's experience. You could say it's taught... but it's self-taught.
b. No, feel is individual. but feel theory can be discussed.

3. How is feel geometrically correct over all other methods?
a. Pool isn't geometrical, it's far more complicated than that. All I know is, geometry, as a subject, does not cover pool in its entirety.
b. I doubt that it is. It is based more on neurological principles of learning than on math.
c. But feel doesn't claim geometrical correctness and obviously can't be illustrated as such. It just claims results.
d. It's not, but who cares about geometry when you are spinning, bending, curving and pinching balls anyway.

4. Can feel be illustrated on a Wei table?
a. No, because the Wei table is two dimensional and it doesn't give a player the correct perspective we are used to. Depth perception is needed to properly visualize a shot.
b. No

5. Can the exactness of feel be shown in an algebraic or mathematical formula which seems to be the final word to validate a system?
a. Nope. Not many systems can. Ghost ball, I guess could.
b. Aim must add in depth perception, the players head position, speed, spin and the other forces that affect the shot -"mentally seeing the shot". I will add that playing on tight pockets requires more exactness and better visualization - playing on such a table develops sharpness.

6. Is feel the same for an APA3 or anything in between compared to a short stop or pro?
a. No. The better player will have much higher levels of precision. I saw Johnny Archer shoot between two balls that could have had as little as 1/8th inch of clearance - I couldn't believe he could do it. Now, that's visualization.

7. Is feel consistent and exact from one shot to the next or from one day to the next?
a. No. If you feel good physically and mentally, "feel" is much easier, but if you don't, your "feel" will feel like crap. Same way you can play phenomenal, and then get tired and suck. It's all relative to that individual at that particular time.
b. No. Brain activity has measureable differences day to day which can be influenced by mood, rest, health and many other things. In truth, there is no physical activity you can successfully mimic day to day, not one.

8. How do you know if your feel manipulation is correct or incorrect before taking the shot?
a. You don't.
b. No way of knowing, I will say, in fact, that if I can't visualize the shot properly, that is my first clue that something is amiss.
c. I will say that you don't always know it's correct. Everyone misses from time to time. There will be times when you believe you're aiming for the correct spot only to realize afterward you weren't.
d. Sometimes you just aren't sure, you only know you're in the ballpark but not positive you're on the exact line.

I'm with you guys on playing by feel because I do play that way most of the time and my answers fall right in line with yours.

But after spending a good amount of time in person with Hal Houle learning CTE and other pivot based systems, there's a flip side of me that asks why I don't use it 100% of the time based on yours and my answers to this thread. It also brings up some questions as to why more people don't get involved with it and how "feel" is highly praised as the best way and CTE is vilified, castigated, and denounced.

After reviewing and analyzing all the responses, here's what I'm taking from them:
Aiming by feel is the best way to do it, yet it is: (based on question 1-8) 1. HIGHLY INDIVIDUAL 2.cannot be transferred from one person to the next or taught 3.cannot be proven from one player to the next to be geometrically correct because no one knows how others are seeing it and setting up 4. It can't be placed on a Wei table because of variations from one shot to the next even for the same ball placement or how you come to the conclusion of the final aiming point 5. It certainly can't be illustrated in a math or geometry formula from one player to the next or even know if it's on the money to begin with 6. A lesser player compared to a higher level player isn't developed the same way nor see things with the same perspective 7. It's very inconsistent from one day to the next based on physical, emotional, energy levels, or focus and concentration 8. You're never really certain if the "inner voice" is giving you the right advice or the wrong advice on what looks on or off with the shot and where you should hit the CB or aim.

CTE and other pivot based systems have a few things in common with "feel aiming" but get blasted by certain people who don't fully understand the way to do it properly. They're pounced on due to unproven geometrical correctness, the inability to show a Wei table set up or two-dimensional drawing, or to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the mathematical accuracy that can't possibly work for anything to do changes from on table to the next or other variables.

Why is it perfectly OK for feel aiming but not CTE?

CTE can be the same for all players and how to use it; it is transferrable from on player to the next and can be taught; if balls are going in the hole and the pocketing % is higher, it must be geometrically correct; it adds to consistency because there are specific visual alignments that aren't dependent on daily bio-rhythms or setup variables to "sense" the aiming point; it's been proven by some highly talented pros to be effective based on it's concept.

Am I off base with my assessment or missing something? Do you see anything much differently with all of the posts right here in front of us?

Thanks to everyone so far for the well thought out responses.

Koop

I almost missed your review of this thread and your comments. You covered so many points with your conclusions I'm not even going to address any of them but I like the things you've written and appreciate the time you took to build a consensus.

CTE and CTE/Pro One are practical aiming systems that could benefit anyone who learns them. Like any other aiming system, there is a lot of other things that go into pocketing the ball besides aim.

I think "feel" is a calculated impression "seen" by our minds eye and earned not just from experience but also from innate eye-body (not just hand) coordination.

The fact that everyone has different levels of innate eye-body coordination is precisely why aiming systems are critical assets to many of us.

I think you are spot on about CTE being villified, castigated and denounced and the "why" puzzles me a great deal. Many of the people who do this are good and decent people at least from what I can see.

JoeyA
 
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