Gamblers and money players are too kinds of people .

[CreeDo]

yeah, I think where ultra's analogy breaks down is an employee-employer have informed consent. Neither is tricking the other. And if one of them doesn't like the arrangement and feels he's been duped, he can walk away at any time. You can't quit in the middle of a set if you find out you've been tricked, at least not without some trouble.

We're just arguing over labels, I don't hear the term "money player" used a lot, just "yeah he'll play for something" or "he gambles at pool". Both are gambling because even the lock artist can get fooled and make a bad game sometimes, and everyone gets bad rolls. So I'd just call both gamblers, one is just tighter (or let's just say it, nittier) than the other.

 

[Big Perm]

Would I have learned a lesson about being greedy? Probably. Would I be more careful about stipulating the terms and conditions of similar bets in the future? You betcha.

So a bet is being greedy? So if somebody offers you a pool bet with what you feel are 50/50 odds, you are greedy? I don't get that? Especially in the context of this discussion.

Regardless, we just disagree.....I wish you all the best.....hope I didn't hijack the thread too much

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[ultramafic]

yeah, I think where ultra's analogy breaks down is an employee-employer have informed consent. Neither is tricking the other. And if one of them doesn't like the arrangement and feels he's been duped, he can walk away at any time. You can't quit in the middle of a set if you find out you've been tricked, at least not without some trouble.

Sure you can quit. Just pay up and leave!

But as for the informed consent - you have it!! When someone offers you a bet, they are informing you they intend to take your money. By accepting the bet, you consent to having them do so.

 

[ultramafic]

So a bet is being greedy? So if somebody offers you a pool bet with what you feel are 50/50 odds, you are greedy? I don't get that?

I think so, yes - and the bigger the bet is, the more greedy it is. And let's face it, we're not talking about 50 cent games here, are we?

 

[ultramafic]

While I do know of at least one pool hustler that would pull a gun on you until you lost everything, he is the exception, and would fit your description of a scumbag.

Well, that's just a criminal and robbery. The game of pool is just a pretext to rob you.

Remember, if you have been had by a hustler, you were hustling too! Can't call him names just because he is better at the job than you are! No one forced you to play him, you chose to.

Exactly! It takes two to make the bet - and both of them are thinking the same thing, "I can beat this guy!"

 

[real bartram]

That's too much of a generalization. Think of a spectrum that on one end has the biggest lock artist in the world and on the other end is Chris Bartram or Scooter.

As you move from the lock artist towards Chris we'll get people who become more & more inclined to get in the box and risk their cheese. Throw in a little alcohol on payday and even a nit lock artist might risk a 20 spot on only getting the 8 against an even opponent.

i got to rob for 15 years now days if i want action i have to play a tough game.

 

[justadub]

Think about what you said. The pool hustler is no different than any salesman of any product. The better pitch of the salesman, the more you can be assured of the B.S. in his statements. The best salesman, aka poolhustlers, leave with your money, and you feeling like you got your monies worth, even while knowing you just "got had".

Being in the sales profession, I take umbrage at the thought of salespeople as "hustlers". Correct me if I'm wrong (I often am, I'm married) but part of "the hustle" is misleading your prospective mark into playing a game where he doesn't know your real speed, thus having a better chance of winning. Basically, misleading the "customer" to get him to "buy".

Most salespeople don't misleading their customers, and if they do, they won't be in the profession long, at least not in the same position at the same company. You lie, you get caught up, you get fired or in the very least no return business. My job is to convince people to purchase my product. If I lie to them, or "hustle them", they won't be back to buy another product from me any time soon.

Yes, there are slimy salespeople out there. Probably the percentage of those compared to the total amount of salespeople is similar to the percentage of pool players that hustle, compared to the total amount who play.

There is salesmanship in any negotiation, that doesn't make that person a "salesperson".

/end rant :sorry:

 

[ultramafic]

Being in the sales profession, I take umbrage at the thought of salespeople as "hustlers". Correct me if I'm wrong (I often am, I'm married) but part of "the hustle" is misleading your prospective mark into playing a game where he doesn't know your real speed, thus having a better chance of winning.

By some definitions. Others say you can hustle not by lying, but withholding information. So, putting this in the salesmen mode....

Do you tell your customer your profit margin? Your commission? The absolute rock bottom price he can get the product for if he dickers long enough and you want the sale bad enough?

Do you tell him when the product is about to be discontinued because a newer product is coming out soon, with more features or a better price - or do you follow the boss's orders to clear out the existing inventory to make way for the new stuff - knowing full well that the customer would likely have the newer stuff - and even if you didn't know - knowing that a consumer would at least like to be informed that the newer stuff is coming and when?

Do you tell him he can get your competitor's product at a better price or with a better feature set when that is the case? And at least sometimes, you know that is the case.

I think you get the idea here. Salesmen can make a lot more money when withholding certain pieces of information from their "customers." So can pool players. Neither is necessarily lying or playing a dirty game.

 

[justadub]

By some definitions. Others say you can hustle not by lying, but withholding information. So, putting this in the salesmen mode....

Do you tell your customer your profit margin? Your commission? The absolute rock bottom price he can get the product for if he dickers long enough and you want the sale bad enough?

Do you tell him when the product is about to be discontinued because a newer product is coming out soon, with more features or a better price - or do you follow the boss's orders to clear out the existing inventory to make way for the new stuff - knowing full well that the customer would likely have the newer stuff - and even if you didn't know - knowing that a consumer would at least like to be informed that the newer stuff is coming and when?

Do you tell him he can get your competitor's product at a better price or with a better feature set when that is the case? And at least sometimes, you know that is the case.

I think you get the idea here. Salesmen can make a lot more money when withholding certain pieces of information from their "customers." So can pool players. Neither is necessarily lying or playing a dirty game.

Answering any or all of this stuff will derail the thread far from where it is intended. My basic premise is that a "hustle" is intentionally misleading, whereas traditional sales is not. To go into every one of your comments (which I could) misses the point I was trying to make.

If everyone that wanted to play for money knew everyone elses speed, then it would be a sales transaction in the traditional sense. Or at least something in the ballpark. When you go to purchase something, you most likely will know the "ballpark" that you should be in, and if you so wish, you can look up pretty much anything you want about pretty much any product out there. Google is your friend. However, Google doesn't know your speed at the table.

Sorry, way off the rails.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[ultramafic]

If everyone that wanted to play for money knew everyone elses speed, then it would be a sales transaction in the traditional sense

There would also be a lot less gambling going on. If you just want to play odds, how fun is that? It's like slot machines vs. craps. Sure, the odds are a lot better with slot machines - often with a 98% payout (good luck getting that at the craps table), but christ - who wants to sit there pushing a button all day? Where is the FUN in that? If you KNEW someone else's true speed before the bet, that's more like making an investment decision than a bet. Not all that entertaining

 

[CreeDo]

Sure you can quit. Just pay up and leave!

But as for the informed consent - you have it!! When someone offers you a bet, they are informing you they intend to take your money. By accepting the bet, you consent to having them do so.

Well, if an employer tells me "I will pay you for X" and then demands that I do Y, I can walk away without either of us paying up (labor or cash). That's the difference. A bet is sort of a contractual obligation to pay up whether it's a fair match or not.

Taking the analogy further, if going around making airtight matches is like working a 9-5 job, then neither party should be bothered by the outcome. But if you're a locksmith then most of your opponents will realize at some point they've been had. They will be upset. Whereas a good-faith exchange of my work for your payment leaves both parties happier.

 

[ultramafic]

But if you're a locksmith then most of your opponents will realize at some point they've been had. They will be upset.

And this is what I don't understand. Well, I understand being pissed off because you lost - no one likes to lose money. But I don't see the point in being pissed off because the other guy was better than me, or that I was dumb enough to bet him - esp. knowing that he wouldn't have bet me unless he thought he would beat me anyway.

If your goal is to have a "50/50" chance of winning, why not just save a bunch of time and flip a coin? Same outcome, without the expense of table time - and more time efficient too.

Frankly. 50/50 are crappy odds anyway....to me anyway. 50% chance of losing? Screw that.

 

[justadub]

There would also be a lot less gambling going on. If you just want to play odds, how fun is that? It's like slot machines vs. craps. Sure, the odds are a lot better with slot machines - often with a 98% payout (good luck getting that at the craps table), but christ - who wants to sit there pushing a button all day? Where is the FUN in that? If you KNEW someone else's true speed before the bet, that's more like making an investment decision than a bet. Not all that entertaining

And therein lies my particular problem with betting on pool (other than my lack of skill and lack of disposable cash.... silly little details like that). Personally I would have little problem playing pool for small-scale bets, or for drinks, or whatever, with the people that I know, even if they were better than me. I'd know what I was up against, and it would all be friendly, and no one would have to worry about the negotiations, and collections. And no one would be taking advantage of each other, since we all know each other and how everyone plays.

But when someone is actively working to deceive someone about their skill in order to gain enough trust to enable the bet.... just seems like bad news for me. Apparently it is a thrill to many; the hunt, the negotiation, the chase, the "kill" so to speak. Getting over on someone. It's all too much work and too much drama and/or conflict for me. I get enough of that at work or at home. Pool is supposed to be fun, for me at least.

 

[justadub]

I was afraid that the way I worded it would probably upset some salesman. That was NOT my intent. I do NOT mean to malign salespeople. They are a necessity in today's (and yesterdays) world.

Let's see if I can maybe word it a little better. The salesman job, and the poolhustlers, is to get you to agree to their product. While it would be wrong to actually lie about the product, you can pretty much rest assured that the salesman is not going to tell you not to buy it because he knows of half a dozen places you can buy the same product for less, or that the product will self destruct the day the warranty expires, or that the product is really not as great as he is making it sound like it is.

His job is to convince you that you would be missing a great deal if you didn't purchase his product. Nothing wrong with that at all. Every single commercial on T.V. does the same thing. And, it can very well be a noble profession, and a high paying profession.

My point, is that the poolhustler has the same job. He has to sell you on the game. BUT, he doesn't just sell the game, and then is done. He ALSO has to play the game AFTER he sells it, and perform better than the competition does. His job is actually harder. If you aren't going to look down on salesman, then why look down on people that want to gamble at pool? Sure, there are bad hustlers out there, and there are bad salesman out there. They happen in all walks of life. But, just because someones sales job is with pool playing, doesn't make them a scumbag.

No problem here, Neil. I figured that was how you intended it, I just wanted to clarify the one area I actually do know something about, for once...

 

[ultramafic]

And therein lies my particular problem with betting on pool (other than my lack of skill and lack of disposable cash.... silly little details like that). Personally I would have little problem playing pool for small-scale bets, or for drinks, or whatever, with the people that I know, even if they were better than me. I'd know what I was up against, and it would all be friendly, and no one would have to worry about the negotiations, and collections. And no one would be taking advantage of each other, since we all know each other and how everyone plays.

But when someone is actively working to deceive someone about their skill in order to gain enough trust to enable the bet.... just seems like bad news for me. Apparently it is a thrill to many; the hunt, the negotiation, the chase, the "kill" so to speak. Getting over on someone. It's all too much work and too much drama and/or conflict for me. I get enough of that at work or at home. Pool is supposed to be fun, for me at least.

Yeah, see, for me, I just don't like to give away money because I'm cheap. So, I don't like to play pool for money because I am quite sure I will lose. I don't even like playing in a bar for the quarters you have to put into the game. If I'm paying for the game, I'd rather just play by myself. If I gotta play with someone else, then I want them to put in half the money. The way I figure it, if I play for money, I will lose - regardless of whatever else is going on or who I am playing.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[peteypooldude]

I think you are right about that,I know some people who keep money in action of some kind,everyday.I also know some broke a$$ people that wont work and bark every time someone walks in a place with a pool case,I dont mean some one who asks and takes the answer for what it is,I am talking about somebody who thinks you owe them an explanation.I got a good explanation for them GET A God da.. job

 

[justadub]

See, here's the problem. You have no problem betting a few dollars, table time, or a drink with people you know. Actually, that is what MOST of this thread is actually about IMHO. Yet, so many are so adamantly against it.

Now, when you get good enough to start taking on the unknown player, who is possibly the road player, well, then you are tugging on Supermans cape. You don't know what will happen! You might get pounded into the dirt, or you may find out that you are using a kryptonite cue!

As far as the true road players, that might spend a week or more setting someone up for the kill.... well, that is their job! Most of us already have a job, and don't want another one that is that hard or time consuming! But, if they don't do their job right, they don't get a payday at all! Tough way to make a living. But, for some, it suits them just fine. They could never do what some of us do everyday for 8 hours a day or more. We each have our own little niche to fill.

Once you get to a certain level in pool, you start to realize what things to look for in someone to see if they really are a player or not. Until then, most should not be jumping on anyone that asks to play for money unless it is something they can afford to lose, and are willing to take the gamble, or willing to donate a little to find something out.

Understood. All of it.

And here is why I won't ever have to worry about any of that, not matter whether I actually get good enough to play you Neil, or anyone in the realm of "good players"... The whole scheming, manipulating, hiding-your-speed thing just rubs me the wrong way. No offense intended to anyone in particular, if that's the way you roll, more power to you. You don't have to worry about getting any money out of me because it won't happen. And I won't be standing there poo-poo'ing you, I'll probably be watching and enjoying the show. And keeping my dough.

If I ever get good enough to consider myself a player, I'll be testing it in tournaments. Where I won't need to guess whether the person I'm playing is setting me up for something. Where the better player wins because he is trying to. I know, to many of you folks I'll never be considered a "real player" because I won't "put up." I can live with that. I've been called far worse things.