Meucci Medici Line of cues

[zy112]

John, since you seem knowledgeable on this maybe you can answer this question. Also pardon my ignorance if I missed this in the thread but I skimmed. Did Meucci move factories at one point within the last ten years. I was aware of their MS plant, but I had heard that at some point they moved factories to a different MS location and lost their previous workforce.

I also knew they tried the overseas thing with the Medicci line, but also had hear rumors of different Mississippi plants.

Again, not sure if this is true but you cannot have turnover like that and have a serious chance of maintaning your business plan. Assuming Meucci has a business plan.

 

[JB Cases]

John, since you seem knowledgeable on this maybe you can answer this question. Also pardon my ignorance if I missed this in the thread but I skimmed. Did Meucci move factories at one point within the last ten years. I was aware of their MS plant, but I had heard that at some point they moved factories to a different MS location and lost their previous workforce.

I also knew they tried the overseas thing with the Medicci line, but also had hear rumors of different Mississippi plants.

Again, not sure if this is true but you cannot have turnover like that and have a serious chance of maintaning your business plan. Assuming Meucci has a business plan.

I believe that they have moved twice. Originally the shop was in Olive Branch, then I am not sure where it went (If I am even right about the in between move) - and now it's in Byhalia Mississippi.

I am not going to speculate as to WHY the quality went south. I have my opinions and I have stories from my friends who know more. I don't know firsthand though. I know that some people who were involved with Meucci left at some point and started another company called Legacy Cues that flamed out within about a year.

I agree that turnover affects production. But that is something that every shop owner knows and should plan for.

 

[JB Cases]

Quality.

Yesterday I went to the factory and went to the showroom to look at all the Meucci and Medici samples that were made.

I will bet ONE MILLION DOLLARS that THE MAJORITY OF RETAILERS in the United States would agree that not only are these cues in excellent condition and sellable but that they are much much much better than currently produced Meucci cues.

Put these cues on the market and MAYBE the Meucci name can rise to prominence again. The designs are mostly great and fresh, even the ones from the 80s still rock.

I looked at the Medici line as well as the ENTIRE Meucci line. We counted about 50 models of Meucci branded cues that were on display. All of these cues were made under the instruction of Bob Meucci himself. The Kao Kao factory invested A LOT of time and effort and money in accurately reproducing all the Meucci designs.

As I have already stated the samples are made on the line. That means that the quality of the cues which go in the box matches the quality of the cues in the sample room - with one exception - sometimes the ones in the samples room are worse because they have some issue which was corrected but not deemed worthy of building a new sample for.

Here are all the pictures I took - sorry didn't have a lot of time but I think you get the point.

www.jbcases.com/Meucci-Medici

Now, I want to be perfectly clear here. If Meucci or anyone else wants to claim that quality was an issue then I am in complete disagreement based on the quality of these cues on display.

According to the owner of the factory the quality was more than acceptable by the purchasers - and they had ordered more BUT they could not come to terms on the money.

I have zero knoweldge of what the quality was like of the cues which ultimately were delivered. I can confidently say that this factory is incredibly consistent in delivering quality that is better than the show room samples so I have no reason to doubt that this was any different.

I hope that this settles the question of quality, in regards to this subject.

 

[manwon]

Quality.

Yesterday I went to the factory and went to the showroom to look at all the Meucci and Medici samples that were made.

I will bet ONE MILLION DOLLARS that THE MAJORITY OF RETAILERS in the United States would agree that not only are these cues in excellent condition and sellable but that they are much much much better than currently produced Meucci cues.

Put these cues on the market and MAYBE the Meucci name can rise to prominence again. The designs are mostly great and fresh, even the ones from the 80s still rock.

I looked at the Medici line as well as the ENTIRE Meucci line. We counted about 50 models of Meucci branded cues that were on display. All of these cues were made under the instruction of Bob Meucci himself. The Kao Kao factory invested A LOT of time and effort and money in accurately reproducing all the Meucci designs.

As I have already stated the samples are made on the line. That means that the quality of the cues which go in the box matches the quality of the cues in the sample room - with one exception - sometimes the ones in the samples room are worse because they have some issue which was corrected but not deemed worthy of building a new sample for.

Here are all the pictures I took - sorry didn't have a lot of time but I think you get the point.

www.jbcases.com/Meucci-Medici



Now, I want to be perfectly clear here. If Meucci or anyone else wants to claim that quality was an issue then I am in complete disagreement based on the quality of these cues on display.

According to the owner of the factory the quality was more than acceptable by the purchasers - and they had ordered more BUT they could not come to terms on the money.

I have zero knoweldge of what the quality was like of the cues which ultimately were delivered. I can confidently say that this factory is incredibly consistent in delivering quality that is better than the show room samples so I have no reason to doubt that this was any different.

I hope that this settles the question of quality, in regards to this subject.

Wow John, that is truly wonderful I hope this proved a point to some one, because think about it for a moment, I doubt that many are going to travel to China just to see those cues, but you never know!! I heard the Cocobolo Cowboy bought some Plane tickets maybe he is coming!!

Have a great night John





"And the wind crys Mary"

 

[JB Cases]

Wow John, that is truly wonderful I hope this proved a point to some one, because think about it for a moment, I doubt that many are going to travel to China just to see those cues, but you never know!! I heard the Cocobolo Cowboy bought some Plane tickets maybe he is coming!!

Have a great night John

"And the wind crys Mary"

It proved the point for me. I hadn't thought about or handled these cues for more than a year until these threads started up.

So yesterday I went there to see for myself and sure enough my memory of what I had seen and felt more than a year ago was correct.

The point for me is that you claimed to have gotten cues twice that were so bad that they were unsellable. That may well be - you have integrity and high standards - but I'd bet that the Chinese factory didn't build them if they were as bad as you say they were.

These cues are not only sellable they are in great condition with very few flaws per cue. An expert such as yourself would pick up on some of the minor flaws but the average consumer would be over the moon with the cues. And for the price point minor flaws are acceptable as you well know.

Bill Stroud told me that there is no such thing as a perfect cue.

The point for me that needs to restated over and over on this forum is that our cues are good cues. I don't sell junk or attach my name to junk.

You have accused me of defrauding consumers on this forum by stating that our cues are good.

You have basically called me a thief and a liar when it comes to my statements concerning the cues that Kao Kao makes.

So whenever I have the opportunity to prove you wrong then I will.

Now of course with you it's a never ending argument because when I post pictures you say that it's not proof because no one is going to be able to inspect the cues. If I sent you the cues then you'd accuse me of doctoring them. You'd probably also challenge when, how and by whom they built. So I already know that you will never recant your position on anything you have ever said no matter what proof to the contrary is offered.

But like you said and I have said - it's not for you that I write, it's for everyone else.

On this point Kao Kao kicked ass to produce cues that are not only sellable but they are, in my opinion, better than anything Meucci has ever made since I can remember. And I have been familiar with Meucci since 1987 when I got my first one.

Kao Kao spent a lot of money and effort to please Bob Meucci. And they were successful in making a cue that Bob accepted and more importantly that his last remaining major outlet had accepted. For Bob to turn around and wrap himself in the flag and disrespect that effort is hypocritical and rude.

The original question that started this thread was why was the Medici line discontinued?

The answers given by you and a few others speculated that it was due to quality.

Since Kao Kao was named as the overseas manufacturer and I am the de facto spokesperson for Kao Kao on AZ I had to speak up in their defense.

The reason that the cues were discontinued had nothing to do with the quality.

It had everything to do with money, who has it, who doesn't, what was wanted and what was offered. That's the reason.

The quality of the cues produced by Kao Kao, including the Meucci/Medici ones they did, is superb.

 

[measureman]

I see "The Great China VS America Cue War Part 2" just heating up.
I love these threads between John And Craig. Mainly because there is a lot of great information from both sides.

 

[manwon]

It proved the point for me. I hadn't thought about or handled these cues for more than a year until these threads started up.

So yesterday I went there to see for myself and sure enough my memory of what I had seen and felt more than a year ago was correct.

The point for me is that you claimed to have gotten cues twice that were so bad that they were unsellable. That may well be - you have integrity and high standards - but I'd bet that the Chinese factory didn't build them if they were as bad as you say they were.

These cues are not only sellable they are in great condition with very few flaws per cue. An expert such as yourself would pick up on some of the minor flaws but the average consumer would be over the moon with the cues. And for the price point minor flaws are acceptable as you well know.

Bill Stroud told me that there is no such thing as a perfect cue.

The point for me that needs to restated over and over on this forum is that our cues are good cues. I don't sell junk or attach my name to junk.

You have accused me of defrauding consumers on this forum by stating that our cues are good.

You have basically called me a thief and a liar when it comes to my statements concerning the cues that Kao Kao makes.

So whenever I have the opportunity to prove you wrong then I will.

Now of course with you it's a never ending argument because when I post pictures you say that it's not proof because no one is going to be able to inspect the cues. If I sent you the cues then you'd accuse me of doctoring them. You'd probably also challenge when, how and by whom they built. So I already know that you will never recant your position on anything you have ever said no matter what proof to the contrary is offered.

But like you said and I have said - it's not for you that I write, it's for everyone else.

On this point Kao Kao kicked ass to produce cues that are not only sellable but they are, in my opinion, better than anything Meucci has ever made since I can remember. And I have been familiar with Meucci since 1987 when I got my first one.

Kao Kao spent a lot of money and effort to please Bob Meucci. And they were successful in making a cue that Bob accepted and more importantly that his last remaining major outlet had accepted. For Bob to turn around and wrap himself in the flag and disrespect that effort is hypocritical and rude.

The original question that started this thread was why was the Medici line discontinued?

The answers given by you and a few others speculated that it was due to quality.

Since Kao Kao was named as the overseas manufacturer and I am the de facto spokesperson for Kao Kao on AZ I had to speak up in their defense.

The reason that the cues were discontinued had nothing to do with the quality.

It had everything to do with money, who has it, who doesn't, what was wanted and what was offered. That's the reason.

The quality of the cues produced by Kao Kao, including the Meucci/Medici ones they did, is superb.

So whenever I have the opportunity to prove you wrong then I will.

John you have not proven anything, come on John your the only who has seen these cues, and this only proves that you will do anything to show everyone your right, especially when your the only one who can verify your comments. I know what I received directly from Meuci and I could careless what you beleive or do not beleive, again unlike you I have nothing to gain from this, and does KAO KAO know that your are representing them on AZ billiards?

John, I will allow you to rant and rave from here to forever. But understand, it is kinda like pissing in the wind maybe you like wet shoes, but I am tired of wasting the forum's time with useless arguments that are opinion based and can never be proven, so I am going to bow out :bow-down::winknudge: at this point to your obviously superior knowledge of everything pool and billiards related.

I apologize to the forum for even being dragged back into John's ego trip to this extent.

Oh and by the way John, did the Cocobolocowboy arrive yet? I bet you will have to help him get through customs!!


Good luck John, and have a nice day

 

[measureman]

Come on Craig, don't quit now it was just getting good.
It is kind of like watching a great football game and they stop it at halftime.
If John would like to send me one of those cues to test I would be more then happy to give an honest opinion. But to make it fair so he doesn't cherry pick the cue I get to pick one from the photos.

 

[JB Cases]

So whenever I have the opportunity to prove you wrong then I will.

John you have not proven anything, come on John your the only who has seen these cues, and this only proves that you will do anything to show everyone your right, especially when your the only one who can verify your comments. I know what I received directly from Meuci and I could careless what you beleive or do not beleive, again unlike you I have nothing to gain from this, and does KAO KAO know that your are representing them on AZ billiards?

John, I will allow you to rant and rave from here to forever. But understand, it is kinda like pissing in the wind maybe you like wet shoes, but I am tired of wasting the forum's time with useless arguments that are opinion based and can never be proven, so I am going to bow out :bow-down::winknudge: at this point to your obviously superior knowledge of everything pool and billiards related.

I apologize to the forum for even being dragged back into John's ego trip to this extent.

Oh and by the way John, did the Cocobolocowboy arrive yet? I bet you will have to help him get through customs!!


Good luck John, and have a nice day

I have made several offers. When it comes to these Meucci and Medici cues it's doubtful that they will ever leave the showroom. As you can see from the pictures though there are two sets though.

And people who matter have seen the cues. People who move more cues each week than you will ever touch in a lifetime. People who deal with experienced dealers and pool room owners throughout the world.

You want to make this about me and cast aspersions on me and the products I represent and yet you fail to acknowledge that I am just one of Kao Kao's customers. They deal with some of the biggest names in pool who represent tens of millions in cue sales worldwide.

I am the smallest fish in this pond.

Of course they know I am standing up for them on this forum. Someone has to counteract the negative things you say about our cues.

I have offered you several methods to prove your side of it in an unbiased test and you refuse to do any of them.

If you post your criteria in a list format I will allow a panel of forum members that every one votes on to choose the Meucci/Medici cues that they want to see - ten cues from the ones shown - live on camera and we will put the cues into a fedex box and ship them to one of the people chosen by AZB for review according to your list of criteria.

You have to post a list with ten bullet points and a 1-10 grading system - 1 being the low point and 10 being the high point. Each cue will be graded and the scores totaled up and presented to AZ.

That's about as fair as I can make it. Live streaming choices - cues go in the fedex box live on camera - fedex man takes them away - the tracking number is provided to the receiver immediately.

I hope that you won't say then that we cherry picked the cues or doctored them - even Kao Kao doesn't have the ability to make cues that fast.

 

[JB Cases]

Also Craig, my argument is based on the fact that I have the cues in my hands. I can at will provide anyone access to them.

You on the other hand have provided testimony but not any proof. Somehow 500 cues have made their into the market and we haven't seen any epidemic of people coming here to complain. On the contrary the only person who actually seems to have one, the thread starter here, loves his and considers it to be better than any other Meuccis he has handled.

I mean regarding pictures I would have thought that if you got these cues and they were as bad as you say then the natural inclination would have been to take pictures. You say that you received two shipments a year apart. I know that you and I have had these "quality" discussions for a while. Surely you would have thought to take pictures when you had such prime examples of bad quality in your hands?????

Maybe you would like me to do a live stream where we can be part of the chat and I can put each cue on camera and you can tell us all what's wrong with it?

There's an idea. See I am giving you every opportunity to show us what you consider to be good and bad and doing everything I can to make it fair and aboveboard.

Do you want to schedule this? We can invite everyone from AZ to watch it. Then they can form their own opinions of your comments on a per cue basis.

 

[JB Cases]

Come on Craig, don't quit now it was just getting good.
It is kind of like watching a great football game and they stop it at halftime.
If John would like to send me one of those cues to test I would be more then happy to give an honest opinion. But to make it fair so he doesn't cherry pick the cue I get to pick one from the photos.

He has to stop because he can't win. I have offered several ways to conduct a fair test. He has threatened to conduct one on his own and nothing comes of it.

It boils down to this.

Craig is biased against cues he does not sell. (so it appears to me)

If he sells a brand that is made in China then it's good or good enough. If he doesn't sell a brand that competes with the brand he sells then he casts aspersions on it.

When confronted about those aspersions Craig refuses to allow for the possibility that he may be wrong. When proof is offered it is always swept aside - when I offer up my cues for inspection there is ALWAYS some excuse from Craig as to why that won't work.

I honestly don't know what Craig's motivation is. Mine is to insure that the reputation of the cues we sell is not unfairly tarnished by bias and prejudice. And also it's to defend against the equally unfair accusations by Craig that I and others will lie and cheat our customers to sell cues.

I am willing to go the extra mile to prove what I say. Unfortunately Craig is not willing to go five feet to prove his assertions.

That's the bottom line.

If I weren't confident in my position then I wouldn't address it. Craig's comments would be lost in the sea of posts on AZ and no one would care. Neither of us has as much influence as we like to imagine that we do. Only I am more than willing to let anyone into our warehouse and pick cues at random to be tested by independent means. Craig is unwilling to live by the results of such a test.

 

[manwon]

John while some people must prove the size of their manhood, I will stand on the satisfaction it can provide. John, I learned long ago that those who make the biggest noise generally have to make that noise to cover up something, what are you covering up John!! You see John size matters unless it is a large hole left from a dropped pie and never forget smoke can be cleared with a fan and an open window.

John unlike you no one I have ever known or heard of inspects the quality of cues by photograph, find any well respected cue maker on this forum and send them the photo's and see if they agree with your position and will publicly admit it!!!!!


John, I have to ask is Barton your real last name or is it one you acquired at some point in your life?


Good Luck John, you have the floor I am completely through with this thread

 

[JB Cases]

John while some people must prove the size of their manhood, I will stand on the satisfaction it can provide. John, I learned long ago that those who make the biggest noise generally have to make that noise to cover up something, what are you covering up John!! You see John size matters unless it is a large hole left from a dropped pie and never forget smoke can be cleared with a fan and an open window.

John unlike you no one I have ever known or heard of inspects the quality of cues by photograph, find any well respected cue maker on this forum and send them the photo's and see if they agree with your position and will publicly admit it!!!!!


John, I have to ask is Barton your real last name or is it one you acquired at some point in your life?


Good Luck John, you have the floor I am completely through with this thread

You are just full of pseudo-platitudes aren't you?

The photos are to prove that the cues exist. I guess my word isn't good enough for you. I suppose I should get a Xiamen newspaper with the date on it to put next to the cues for you. They aren't meant to prove anything about the overall quality other than I snapped a few pix with closeups at random so you and everyone else could see what they are like.

What are you covering up? So far all I see is you trying mightily to insult me and posting off-topic comments? How much do you charge on average for repairs? Let's say it's $100 per cue. And how long does an average repair job last? Let's say it's two hours. Don't you have then 40-80 hours worth of cue repairs to do? How do you find the time to be here so much?

My name? That's your best shot? Seriously, your coup de grace, your final shot is to ask me about my name? Is the some sort of clever insinuation that my name was changed to "cover something up"??

When I got married the second time I took my wife's last name. She didn't want to change hers as she was an only child and I didn't want a hyphenated name. I didn't care about my last name, which was Collins, being that I don't know my father and didn't ask for this name and so don't care one way or the other. So I took hers and when we got divorced I kept it because I like it. The social security adminstration and the depratment of State both have the full records of the name change and my social security number has not changed. So does that satisfy you Craig or do you have some secret information you want to drop on us that shows how I am running from the law by changing my name?

My name? Really???? What are you like six?

Get off the drugs or find better ones man. If you aren't on drugs then seek some therapy or something. Because when you are challenged you go way way way off the deep end. I mean so do I but I don't start making up random nonsense like you did here.

ON TOPIC - discussing things related to the topic. OFF TOPIC - making comments completely unrelated to the topic such as ad hominem attacks.

All the stuff about my character and your character, which you started, is OFF TOPIC. Anything related to Medici Cues and why they are discontinued is ON TOPIC.

I bet you are not done posting in this thread. I have $20 on it so go on and win me lunch.