Better, topic (Veneers)

[Michael Webb]

i recut till it's the thickness of veneers

Thank you, I understand totally but I was sought of hoping to keep this thread on track with the two methods because it opens the opinions to all. Re-cuts limit the conversation down to maybe 10 to 20 people.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=183757

 

[Michael Webb]

Earlier it was mentioned that Bushka and Szamboti both mitered theirs so that's why the collectors tend to like mitered over stacked. I thought that was odd because I seemed to remember Spain doing stacked. I know that Bushka never built any points, and only used blanks from Spain and Szamboti. I also know that he made way more cues from Spain blanks, so most of his pointed cues should have been stacked.

Am I wrong? Maybe I should call Dick Abbott and ask him. If anyone should know about Bushka's and Szamboti's he would!

Personally, I have built both but it was a long time ago. To me, mitered would be better for a production environment. It would take more setup, but once you have it down it takes less time to build repeatably. Stacked, on the other hand, would be easier to get good clean joints but would take longer to build for each cue.

All in all I find it amazing that cue buyers pay that much attention to it. I'm with Ryan about not being able to tell the difference in the hit, and done right they both look virtually identical.

Oh, well. I will talk to Mr. Abbott. I need to bug him anyway!

Thanks Royce,

 

[Tony Zinzola]

to me mitered is to easy...well the way I do it....

If it's so easy, I would like to see a close up of your miters.

my comment wasn't about the stack or mitered I am talking about the recut wood for veneers so no line... can show a pic if needed

I would like to see a close up picture of your recut wood veneers. I'm not talking about recut points, I'm talking about Veneers that you cut, dyed and put in a cue.

Dennis, is this you???

 

[qbilder]

I don't get the mitered veneers being more professional. Somebody's gonna have to explain that one to me.

For anybody who thinks mitered is more traditional, I know a fellow with a handful of Gus Szams that have overlapping veneers. One of them is a GSB & two of the points have mitered veneers while the other two have overlapping veneers. It's the neatest thing I have seen in an old cue & by most people likely would go unnoticed. But the fact is the greatest builder in our history overlapped veneers & if it's something he felt comfortable doing, then I am too.

 

[Tbeaux]

Thanks for the answers.
So what I'm taking from the answers is that as joe average player I'm unlikely to notice too much of a difference in hit if a cuemaker makes two identical cues each with a different method.
As to looks I might not notice any significant difference in the look of the cues so long as the cuemaker is comfortable doing both methods.
The cost would be different but would likely vary from cuemaker to cuemaker as well as from cue design to cue design.
If I were a collector I would seek out the mitered cue but mainly because of a tradition.

 

[Michael Webb]

Thanks for the answers.
So what I'm taking from the answers is that as joe average player I'm unlikely to notice too much of a difference in hit if a cuemaker makes two identical cues each with a different method.
As to looks I might not notice any significant difference in the look of the cues so long as the cuemaker is comfortable doing both methods.
The cost would be different but would likely vary from cuemaker to cuemaker as well as from cue design to cue design.
If I were a collector I would seek out the mitered cue but mainly because of a tradition.

Thank you, good response, One thing people that I let visit come to hopefully appreciate is, They learn a little about both methods and what goes into a cue before it leaves. Just as I hope, some will appreciate this thread and maybe more like it. To maybe Educate a little here instead of just in the for sale or gallery section.

 

[hangemhigh]

Mitered veneers give the appearance of depth in boxes, they also give a cue the appearance of symmetry and help contribute to the sense of perfect alignment in a cue.

Stacked has it's place though, and perfect execution of stacked veneers is as much a testament to the builders prowess as mitered.

 

[qbilder]

Thanks for the answers.
So what I'm taking from the answers is that as joe average player I'm unlikely to notice too much of a difference in hit if a cuemaker makes two identical cues each with a different method.
As to looks I might not notice any significant difference in the look of the cues so long as the cuemaker is comfortable doing both methods.
The cost would be different but would likely vary from cuemaker to cuemaker as well as from cue design to cue design.
If I were a collector I would seek out the mitered cue but mainly because of a tradition.

I know a lot of collectors. To say they only want miters is false. Contrarily, the miters they want are the perfect miters with no obvious glue lines & perfectly square so that the base wood is equally as sharp as the veneer point tip. Lots & lots of guys do mitered veneers, but hardly any get it exactly right on a consistent basis. That's what separates the top from the masses. Collectors at a serious level are a sharp bunch of gentleman. They know cuemaking as well as any cuemaker, and hold as high or higher standards for cuemakers than cuemakers do for themselves. Like I said before, it's not how it's done so much as it's how well it's done.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I guess the third type is forgotten.
Inlayed.
I know two great west coast makers who do just that.

 

[RBC]

I know a lot of collectors. To say they only want miters is false. Contrarily, the miters they want are the perfect miters with no obvious glue lines & perfectly square so that the base wood is equally as sharp as the veneer point tip. Lots & lots of guys do mitered veneers, but hardly any get it exactly right on a consistent basis. That's what separates the top from the masses. Collectors at a serious level are a sharp bunch of gentleman. They know cuemaking as well as any cuemaker, and hold as high or higher standards for cuemakers than cuemakers do for themselves. Like I said before, it's not how it's done so much as it's how well it's done.

Eric,

I just received a picture of the veneers fairly close up on a Spain blank Balabushka. It's pretty easy to see that they are stacked. Not only that, they are all stacked the same direction! It's way too big to post and if I make it smaller. it's harder to see.

So, I totally agree with you. If they are done right or not is what counts. I have seen cues where they were done so well it was hard to tell. I'm also not sure recuts would change the hit much either. Again, provided everything was glued and machined properly.

 

[Rodney]

I know houses and trim are not cues, but how would we feel if a carpenter installed baseboard in the corners overlapping instead of mitered? Brick mold around a door frame butted instead of mitered? Crown molding?

I think there is a perception, right or wrong, that mitered joints and mitered seams are more professional and have a more finished look than the overlapped/butted look.

Again, I'm not saying the two are equal...I'm just saying...

Kelly

Baseboard and crown molding are usually not mitered on inside corners, they're coped. I've seen many houses done this way, and if done properly, it looks fine.

Rodney----miters everything thats hard wood.

 

[Michael Webb]

I guess the third type is forgotten.
Inlayed.
I know two great west coast makers who do just that.

There are various styles out there, The two I started the thread about are the most common, and also create the most controversy. If you do veneers in the future, Will you be doing one of these styles, or both? WHY?

 

[LGSM3]

Mike, this is the best thread i've seen in a while. I completely agree with most everything you and Ryan have said.

you asked how people FEEL, i feel that if someone puts enough pride into either method then the result will not be open for ridicule.

Theres no possible way in my opinion that mitered is "more professional"

theres a couple of guys who have chimed in "won't name names" that have more than a huge following and get top dollar for cues. If they suddenly started stacking there veneers i don't think for one second that it would change peoples opinion or the value of there cues. If anything the bandwagon would say that mitering is for hacks.

yes mitering veneers is way easy, but the guy who says its easy to do a good job at it! should accept my offering of a plane ticket and a handful of cash to come show me.

Yes, i miter veneers, i hate it, its more than very hard to do it right.

think the post is especially good for people starting out, to know they don't have to do the obvious because everybodies doin it.

one more thing, 4-5 veneers being the easiest to miter, 3 being a little more difficult...2 ? gotta stack em, atleast i do or it looks like hell....anybody successfully mitered 2 veneers? not talking about .060's or bigger

 

[LGSM3]

I know houses and trim are not cues, but how would we feel if a carpenter installed baseboard in the corners overlapping instead of mitered? Brick mold around a door frame butted instead of mitered? Crown molding?

I think there is a perception, right or wrong, that mitered joints and mitered seams are more professional and have a more finished look than the overlapped/butted look.

Again, I'm not saying the two are equal...I'm just saying...

Kelly

perfect example, you mean the mitered corners with the 1/8" glue "i mean caulk line" that you have to paint over and hope it looks consistent. not trying to be a smartass but it really is a perfect example...whether crownmold is mitered or coped, veneers mitered or stacked there is a certain level of pride it takes to be successful. Therefore this craftsmanship should be taken into consideration when evaluated.

 

[Tony Zinzola]

I was just taking photos of this cue, so I took pictures of the miters. This cue is only 3 points, so it is hard to get two points in the photo. What the picture doesn't show is that every veneer all the way down to the point wood line up.

This is also one of the best cues I've made so far. I wish they all lined up all the way down, but the fact is, they do not always turn out that way.

If you can do that every time and keep the inner point wood sharp, then I will accept the fact that it's easy for you. Until then, you need to keep working on your technique.

 

[Michael Webb]

Mike, this is the best thread i've seen in a while. I completely agree with most everything you and Ryan have said.

you asked how people FEEL, i feel that if someone puts enough pride into either method then the result will not be open for ridicule.

Theres no possible way in my opinion that mitered is "more professional"

theres a couple of guys who have chimed in "won't name names" that have more than a huge following and get top dollar for cues. If they suddenly started stacking there veneers i don't think for one second that it would change peoples opinion or the value of there cues. If anything the bandwagon would say that mitering is for hacks.

yes mitering veneers is way easy, but the guy who says its easy to do a good job at it! should accept my offering of a plane ticket and a handful of cash to come show me.

Yes, i miter veneers, i hate it, its more than very hard to do it right.

think the post is especially good for people starting out, to know they don't have to do the obvious because everybodies doin it.

one more thing, 4-5 veneers being the easiest to miter, 3 being a little more difficult...2 ? gotta stack em, atleast i do or it looks like hell....anybody successfully mitered 2 veneers? not talking about .060's or bigger

Thank you very much, With my set up and jigs, I can probably miter down to one veneer but I am so comfortable doing both styles, I honestly see no need to just miter one or two.

 

[tattoo]

I was just taking photos of this cue, so I took pictures of the miters. This cue is only 3 points, so it is hard to get two points in the photo. What the picture doesn't show is that every veneer all the way down to the point wood line up.

This is also one of the best cues I've made so far. I wish they all lined up all the way down, but the fact is, they do not always turn out that way.

If you can do that every time and keep the inner point wood sharp, then I will accept the fact that it's easy for you. Until then, you need to keep working on your technique.

damn tony those points are smoking hot......

 

[Michael Webb]

I was just taking photos of this cue, so I took pictures of the miters. This cue is only 3 points, so it is hard to get two points in the photo. What the picture doesn't show is that every veneer all the way down to the point wood line up.

This is also one of the best cues I've made so far. I wish they all lined up all the way down, but the fact is, they do not always turn out that way.

If you can do that every time and keep the inner point wood sharp, then I will accept the fact that it's easy for you. Until then, you need to keep working on your technique.

Thank you Tony.

 

[qbilder]

Eric,

I just received a picture of the veneers fairly close up on a Spain blank Balabushka. It's pretty easy to see that they are stacked. Not only that, they are all stacked the same direction! It's way too big to post and if I make it smaller. it's harder to see.

So, I totally agree with you. If they are done right or not is what counts. I have seen cues where they were done so well it was hard to tell. I'm also not sure recuts would change the hit much either. Again, provided everything was glued and machined properly.

Yeah i'm totally with you. Stacked veneers aren't anything new. It's as old and traditional as miters, and has been a technique utilized by all the greats of history. I also agree that the mitering is a great idea for production as it's faster & more repeatable due to it's ease. There are fewer steps to be taken. But in a custom shop, it's not neccesary and there is no argument that stacked veneers don't look good & clean, especially if done with a high level of skill.

I'm gonna build a stacked multiple veneer cue and it's gonna look awesome. We'll see then if collectors are only interested in miters. I'm guessing not. I am curious, though. If nobody wants it then i'll finally have a cue of my own LOL

 

[Tony Zinzola]

I can also Miter down to one veneer. At least the .036" ones. I don't know if I can do the thinner ones as I've never tried.

As for stacking them, I haven't tried since my third or fourth cue and they sucked. I'm sure if I wanted to take the time, I could figure it out though.