Diamond Rails Causing Balls to Miss?

Fast Lenny

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
I was thinking about the difference on Diamonds and Gold Crowns, I know the Diamond has a deeper shelf and the way the pockets are cut but another thing I observed is what happens when a ball hits the rail. I could touch the rail on a similar sized pocket GC and it would drop and the same shot on a Diamond would not. Could the bounce off the Diamond rails cause it to miss as opposed to some of the more worn rails on some of the GCs?
 
rails

Hey Lenny,

Lots of variables here. The rubber - the cloth - age of the cloth etc.

Normally a Diamond has Simonis cloth and Artemis rubber. If the Brunswick has thicker cloth, the rebound will be a lot less.

Also, usually the Artemis is a little more sensitive - meaning a little more bounce. I do not know the durometer ratings, but imagine the Artemis is lower.

Plus the angle of the pocket is a huge factor. Obviously you mentioned the slate shelf.

This is more of a RKC quesition but I wanted you to see some of the things to consider.

mark Griffin
 
fast lenny,

It has been my experience that "pocket speed" plays much more of a role on Diamond tables than on GC's. This past weekend, the Turning Stone Classic was held on sixteen Diamond Smart Tables. Even Saturday evening, after the tables had been played on for three days, hitting the rail short of the pocket either softly or hard would cause the ball to "bobble" in the pocket. Hitting the object ball with that not quantifyable speed would drop the ball every time. I wholely agree with Mark in his assesment.

Lyn
 
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Fast Lenny said:
I was thinking about the difference on Diamonds and Gold Crowns, I know the Diamond has a deeper shelf and the way the pockets are cut but another thing I observed is what happens when a ball hits the rail. I could touch the rail on a similar sized pocket GC and it would drop and the same shot on a Diamond would not. Could the bounce off the Diamond rails cause it to miss as opposed to some of the more worn rails on some of the GCs?
Click to expand...

The amount of play on a cloth...AND the type of cloth has a lot to do with pocketing balls. Even a Diamond with new Simonis 860 plays real slippery and corner pockets take balls like they're 5" instead of 4 1/2" combine that with the deeper slate shelf on a Diamond vs a GC and you have apples and oranges, not to mention humidity and the condition of the balls, and the toll it takes on the cloth. One of the major problems...is that most people are just spoiled playing on Brunswick tables because they're easier to play on than Diamonds, but there's a big difference between easy and fair:D

Glen
 
Fast Lenny said:
I was thinking about the difference on Diamonds and Gold Crowns, I know the Diamond has a deeper shelf and the way the pockets are cut but another thing I observed is what happens when a ball hits the rail. I could touch the rail on a similar sized pocket GC and it would drop and the same shot on a Diamond would not. Could the bounce off the Diamond rails cause it to miss as opposed to some of the more worn rails on some of the GCs?
Click to expand...

Do you like this bobble or dislike this bobble?

Is hitting the rail on a cut shot cheating, or "not fair"?

I sure do hear a lot of comments about Diamonds playing tough, but fair.

What is "fair"?
 
Mantool said:
Do you like this bobble or dislike this bobble?

Is hitting the rail on a cut shot cheating, or "not fair"?

I sure do hear a lot of comments about Diamonds playing tough, but fair.

What is "fair"?
Click to expand...

"unfair" is when you can graze the cushion just past the side pocket and still make the ball in the corner pockets! "unfair" is when you can slam a ball in the pocket without even being close to center pocket and you know it'll go in. "unfair" is when you see a ball wobble back and forth so badly...and still go in!...So, I guess all that's left...is "fair":D

Glen
 
no unfair is also.....

realkingcobra said:
"unfair" is when you can graze the cushion just past the side pocket and still make the ball in the corner pockets! "unfair" is when you can slam a ball in the pocket without even being close to center pocket and you know it'll go in. "unfair" is when you see a ball wobble back and forth so badly...and still go in!...So, I guess all that's left...is "fair":D

Glen
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There's another side to the coin Glen....

Unfair is when you hit a ball down rail and it goes STRAIGHT down the edge of the rail and rattles in the corner pocket.

Unfair is when you come at a side pocket a little firm (necessary to get proper shape) at a 30 degree angle as perfect as possible and it bounces off the tit.

Unfair goes both ways and you have to adjust to the conditions that you are faced with.

A GCIV or V with properly tightened pockets plays middle of the road IMO. It's just hard to get a mechanic that knows how to set it up properly.

Apples and Oranges is right and Diamonds are by no means perfect although that 4" pocketed diamond monster you did up at Dave's place plays better than any table I've ever played on.

Jaden
 
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Jaden said:
There's another side to the coin Glen....

Unfair is when you hit a ball down rail and it goes STRAIGHT down the edge of the rail and rattles in the corner pocket.

Unfair is when you come at a side pocket a little firm (necessary to get proper shape) at a 30 degree angle as perfect as possible and it bounces off the tit.

Unfair goes both ways and you have to adjust to the conditions that you are faced with.

A GCIV or V with properly tightened pockets plays middle of the road IMO. It's just hard to get a mechanic that knows how to set it up properly.

Apples and Oranges is right and Diamonds are by no means perfect although that 4" pocketed diamond monster you did up at Dave's place plays better than any table I've ever played on.

Jaden
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Shhhhhhhh...I told Dave it was 4"...but actually 3 7/8" if you really measure it:D thank you:D and I hear what you're saying about the Diamonds...but, at least there is a consistancy with Diamond ProCut pockets, whereas with Brunswick GC's....you have no idea what you're getting into...until you're already there....and you're 100% right, it all depends on who's worked on the the tables last.

Glen
 
Dave let me play some nineball on it....

realkingcobra said:
Shhhhhhhh...I told Dave it was 4"...but actually 3 7/8" if you really measure it:D thank you:D and I hear what you're saying about the Diamonds...but, at least there is a consistancy with Diamond ProCut pockets, whereas with Brunswick GC's....you have no idea what you're getting into...until you're already there....and you're 100% right, it all depends on who's worked on the the tables last.

Glen
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I was there like right after you did it and I was able to practice some nineball on it before they made it one hole only...

I thought it was going to play REALLY tough.... but I ran out the first rack I played on it. It seemed to play easier to me than most diamonds and I got to thinking about it and it does...

If you hit it right into the pocket from certain angles on a regular 4.5 cut diamond pro it has more room to bounce back and forth, so even if you hit it right it can rattle out.

There's less room for the rebound angle to take effect on that 4'.. I mean 3 and 7/8' pocket so it accepts well struck balls easier.

But you can't be off at all.

I also got to play Dan Louie a little one hole and he's the coolest guy, I think he's the only guy I've played one hole who actually thanked me for running eight and out on him and wasn't being sarcastic... Go Dan Louie, you and Max are my favorites in the 14.1 world's.... (edit) oops didn't realize that Dan Louie's already out, well then, GO MAX!!!

Jaden

p.s. I don't want this to turn into a flame war as to who is better, but I REALLY like the way Ernesto and Oscar's Gold Crown table jobs play too....
 
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Jaden said:
I was there like right after you did it and I was able to practice some nineball on it before they made it one hole only...

I thought it was going to play REALLY tough.... but I ran out the first rack I played on it. It seemed to play easier to me than most diamonds and I got to thinking about it and it does...

If you hit it right into the pocket from certain angles on a regular 4.5 cut diamond pro it has more room to bounce back and forth, so even if you hit it right it can rattle out.

There's less room for the rebound angle to take effect on that 4'.. I mean 3 and 7/8' pocket so it accepts well struck balls easier.

But you can't be off at all.

I also got to play Dan Louie a little one hole and he's the coolest guy, I think he's the only guy I've played one hole who actually thanked me for running eight and out on him and wasn't being sarcastic... Go Dan Louie, you and Max are my favorites in the 14.1 world's.... (edit) oops didn't realize that Dan Louie's already out, well then, GO MAX!!!

Jaden

p.s. I don't want this to turn into a flame war as to who is better, but I REALLY like the way Ernesto and Oscar's Gold Crown table jobs play too....
Click to expand...

No flame Jaden, Ernesto's a great mechanic:D
 
on my long, low angle corner pocket shots, i will err on the cushion side because on most tables it will wobble in. all's fair in love and pool....
 
"Fair" is when you can only cheat the pocket a little.
"Unfair" is when the pocket cheats you.
 
Fast Lenny said:
I was thinking about the difference on Diamonds and Gold Crowns, I know the Diamond has a deeper shelf and the way the pockets are cut but another thing I observed is what happens when a ball hits the rail. I could touch the rail on a similar sized pocket GC and it would drop and the same shot on a Diamond would not. Could the bounce off the Diamond rails cause it to miss as opposed to some of the more worn rails on some of the GCs?
Click to expand...

Finally!!! Someone notices this. It took me forever to adjust to a diamond table. At first the diamond made me play about the 7 or 8 worse. Now I've played on a diamond so much that now if I play on a tight gold crown there are a couple of shots where i really dont know where to aim to make it. I also cant stand it when I tell someone I missed that shot because Im not use to gold crowns and think Im bullshitting them.
 
donny mills said:
Finally!!! Someone notices this. It took me forever to adjust to a diamond table. At first the diamond made me play about the 7 or 8 worse. Now I've played on a diamond so much that now if I play on a tight gold crown there are a couple of shots where i really dont know where to aim to make it. I also cant stand it when I tell someone I missed that shot because Im not use to gold crowns and think Im bullshitting them.
Click to expand...

If in doubt....just aim for center pocket:D
 
donny mills said:
Finally!!! Someone notices this. It took me forever to adjust to a diamond table. At first the diamond made me play about the 7 or 8 worse. Now I've played on a diamond so much that now if I play on a tight gold crown there are a couple of shots where i really dont know where to aim to make it. I also cant stand it when I tell someone I missed that shot because Im not use to gold crowns and think Im bullshitting them.
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Is this Bison Billiards Donny Mills?

Lyn
 
good thead

You know i know an ex road player, played 49 states in the 60's,70's' n 80's...STRONG, made a killing when they did the Alaskan Pipeline and he wont put a Diamond in a VERY NICE pool hall cause he says "back in my day diamonds didnt exist and they change the way you have to play"...well so does a triple shimmed diamond but it serves a purpose. i would say its a business decision so people play better but he was offered 2 free tbles for a yr by Greg and wont, really thinks since he never had to play on them that they r bad for game. well, he has a multimillion dollar room, some bangers and some serious players, so how does he expect the players to gear up and go anywhere when they have to contend with a completely different animal, CAN'T.

i agree, you have to adjust to table, as was said ealier by maybe, jim, pocketspeed on diamonds is crucial and if you r using english even more crucial along with accuracy. thats why i try to get in habit of using or playing the entire pocket by choice, than i am always focusing and noticing if i am gutting balls or playn it full to right side, etc...i can also use less english and concentrate more on whether i am hitting a ball full, thin, etc to get position..and rely on my stroke and some english if need be. but if i load up and fire balls in with speed and english its gonna go bad in long run unless im splittin every pocket, wont last on a diamond. IMO, Gold Crowns ruin your game cause you can fire balls in at any speed, english and hit the long rail, on some b4 the 1st diamond and it will pocket and it allows u to get lazy. you may be making balls but your doin it in buckets i have seen guys use to GC's absolutely fall apart on diamonds cause they're use to an easy tbl. Now a 1 piece, 3 inch slate diamond plays pretty sporty even compared to a 3 piece diamond. As mentioned earlier too on diamonds the points are harder. also on GC's pockets are so big, points soft that if your straight on a ball close to pocket its eays for cb to get sucked up by pocket even when you hit it well. sorry i went off but i have to drive twice as far to play in a good room rather than get spoiled on GC'S....my 1 cent.

but i have also ran a ball down rail, perfect ball speed only to bobble or lay deeeep in pocket...in tourney we r playn opponent on same tbl, so adjust, at home pick your poison to perfect ur game
J
 
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Jaden said:
There's another side to the coin Glen....

Unfair is when you hit a ball down rail and it goes STRAIGHT down the edge of the rail and rattles in the corner pocket.
<snip>
Jaden
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I thought they called that Snooker. :wink:
 
I love how they play, just wish I could hit on them every day. I find it very difficult adjusting to diamond tables during a tournament. They play sooooo different from the tables I usually play. Pockets are tight, rails are short and fast, cloth is fast.
 
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