Greyghosts aiming method.......come step into the darkness

[duckie]

Gotta have a counter point.

I've been going to a couple of different rooms near me. They all have different lighting. One place, the light is so diffused, there are no useful shadows. These were the tube style over head lights.

Another room lights have four blub fixture with CFL in them. There are multible shadows on each ball due to four different light sources.

One place, the lights are not always centered over the table which changes how the shadows are cast.

The point is, I'd would much rather use a visualiztion method that can be used in any lighting condition.

FWIW

 

[greyghost]

Gotta have a counter point.

I've been going to a couple of different rooms near me. They all have different lighting. One place, the light is so diffused, there are no useful shadows. These were the tube style over head lights.

Another room lights have four blub fixture with CFL in them. There are multible shadows on each ball due to four different light sources.

One place, the lights are not always centered over the table which changes how the shadows are cast.

The point is, I'd would much rather use a visualiztion method that can be used in any lighting condition.

FWIW

once again I already covered the multiple lights issue....you aim with the inner most shadow...its easy to see and can be used on any descent[/COLOR table....

I also stated that this wasn't an end all aiming technique.....

your comments are like saying "well I can't effectively use a pendulum stroke with a warped cue....so i would rather use another method of stroke"

why not just buy a straight cue?

why not play on a normal table.....thats what this thread was aimed at, NORMAL CONDITIONS.......

we used to play in a marina that was soooo off level and crooked lighted that not one normal thing worked......so you had to change to adapt, and do everything wrong just to get a right.....were not talking about out of the box situations like that.

FWIW

-Grey Ghost-

 

[JB Cases]

When you play pool there are two things that are generally completely fixed in space - the position of the pockets and the lighting. Thus it's entirely plausible that one can use the lights to figure the angle to the pockets.

After all, we use things like the position of the sun relative to the horizon to figure our position on Earth - we use shadows to measure distance and time.

Why is it so far-fetched to think that a human being who is intereacting with a pool table which is inert can't use a perpetual guide such as the lights and resulting shadows to improve his perception of how to adjust himself to the proper angle?

All of these systems, CTE, Light-Reflection, now Shadows, etc...rely on a person's own perception and how well that person is able to see and use references. Ghost Ball is also such a system only that you have to be really really good at judging distance on open space in order to see the proper placement of the ghost ball.

And as with all these systems the proof is in the shot making. They should be held up to the light and tried by others and if they work great, if they don't then that's that. That's how progress gets made. How do you think we went from creating fire by flintstones to lasers?

I think it's brave to present any type of aiming system, or really any technique to play the game, on a forum. It opens one up to criticism and that can be hard to take. However if the technique ends up having merit and helping others then it's worth it.

I think I read in one article that Bob Jewett was critical of the "light reflections" method of aiming but that he had changed his mind somewhat after conversing with Ron Vitello on the subject.

Now, if Bob Jewett can change his mind on something like that then I, who know far far far less than Bob about the physics of pool, can afford to be open minded about these things.

I look forward to trying the Shadow System later today.

 

[D-Rock]

I haven't had the chance to try this out yet, so maybe it will be more clear when I'm at the table, but if your aiming at the shadow on the reverse side of the ball how can you see it? Wouldn't the ball be in the way?

 

[greyghost]

I haven't had the chance to try this out yet, so maybe it will be more clear when I'm at the table, but if your aiming at the shadow on the reverse side of the ball how can you see it? Wouldn't the ball be in the way?

b/c the ball has a radius....if you get down on the shot you can see it....if your standing straight up then depending on how far away that ball is then you wouldn't be able to see the shadow mark....

using this system your head will be within a foot or so of the level cuestick

 

[D-Rock]

b/c the ball has a radius....if you get down on the shot you can see it....if your standing straight up then depending on how far away that ball is then you wouldn't be able to see the shadow mark....

using this system your head will be within a foot or so of the level cuestick

gotcha. well, 2 more days on the rig, then I can at least go try this out at a bar when I go shoot with my grandfather before heading back home. kinda excited to check it out.

 

[Tom M]

Put a wicked bright light in each pocket.

That's absolutely right, and the only way this would work. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but aiming by shadows CANNOT work reliably. If you think this is working, then you're aiming subconciously and making balls.

The shadows do NOT know where the pocket is. There is zero correlation. Period.

 

[greyghost]

That's absolutely right, and the only way this would work. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but aiming by shadows CANNOT work reliably. If you think this is working, then you're aiming subconciously and making balls.

The shadows do NOT know where the pocket is. There is zero correlation. Period.

Let me guess....another one that just wants to think whats going to work or not in his head.....have you even tried it....

my $$$ say NO

-Grey Ghost-

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Let me guess....another one that just wants to think whats going to work or not in his head.....have you even tried it....

my $$$ say NO

-Grey Ghost-

Some things you don't have to try to know the answer. But I wasted my time trying this one for a change, and proved to myself what I already knew: that it's nonsense.

- 4 in-line cone lights centered over the table
- lots of OB positions for shots into different pockets
- lots of different shot angles for each position (these pics are representative examples)

The results were the same for every OB position: the shadow showed the correct contact point from one shot angle only. From every other angle the shadow showed the wrong contact point.

As anybody with any sense of spatial relationships knows without trying, this method is nonsense.

pj
chgo

P.S. To be clear, what I mean by "nonsense" is the idea that this method gives an exact aiming point. The shadows fall in random positions relative to the real contact point, some closer to it, some farther from it - but only by chance will one fall exactly in the right place for any given shot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

JB:
Why is it so far-fetched to think that a human being who is intereacting with a pool table which is inert can't use a perpetual guide such as the lights and resulting shadows to improve his perception of how to adjust himself to the proper angle?

1. Because the same method doesn't work on two tables that are lit differently.

2. Because even on the same table, with the OB in the same place, shooting into the same pocket, the shadow(s) only line up correctly for one shot angle - every other shot angle is wrong.

I'm frankly surprised at how many people don't immediately see these obvious problems before trying this method. It seems to me that those who like these "systems" (CTE, lights, shadows, etc., etc.) share a difficulty in visualizing 3-dimensional spatial relationships. John, no offense, but you've demonstrated this in spades.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Neil:
Interesting how you say it's udder nonsense, yet, in each of your pictures, the contact point lines up perfectly with one of the 4 shadows.

I figured somebody would try that rationalization. You're exaggerating the "perfection", of course, but let's ask a more obvious question: what do you do on a table with one light, or three? Back to "rotating edges" or "hip pivot to the shot circle"? These tortured "adjustments" only illustrate more clearly that these "systems" are really subjective.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Neil:
it is not a system without flaws

It's not a "system" at all, but simply another way to say "find any reference point to focus on that you reckon is somewhere near the actual contact point". It could be lights or shadows or the centers or edges of the balls, or even the chance reflection of the player at the next table. My point is that all of these are more or less random and bear no fixed relationship to the ever-changing contact point (or CB/OB alignment) for real shots.

My larger point is that we should recognize and acknowledge this reality and know these "systems" for what they are. I don't think we really help anybody by pretending these methods are something they're not. The better we know how they actually work (not how some of us wish they worked), the more useful they might be to more players, and the easier they might be to teach and use.

pj
chgo

 

[softshot]

ok... 24 hours of give it a shot complete...

it's not perfect... but it can be useful...

I hope I understand correctly... when down on the shot....low stance chin close to cue... point the center of the stick ... to the point where the ball and the shadow of the ball meet...(very easy spot to find when you are in position)..

in my experience the effective range of this system... works from just off of straight in.. to almost a half ball hit...a fairly narrow range .. however the most productive range for a pool player... when planning a great run-out THAT is the slice of the pie you are aiming for..

I find aiming systems make good training tools...but are not the be all end all holy grail some people make them out to be..


if you REALLY train yourself to aim... the chalk will show you the way...(it doesn't even matter which brand) the chalk rubbing off of a ball on a set shot will after enough time draw lines on your table showing you the shot line... showing you the center of the ghost ball.... showing you the tangent line..

everyone who has discovered this fact on their own does not need a system to aim..

Aim is overrated.. and alignment and stroke are all but forgotten to everyone except those who can actually play...

learn how to stroke straight and practice the common angles, with the common spins.. every day


and it will serve you far better than hocus pocus remedies

 

[Patrick Johnson]

softshot:
I hope I understand correctly... when down on the shot....low stance chin close to cue... point the center of the stick ... to the point where the ball and the shadow of the ball meet

Actually, Keeb's method is to aim the CB contact point at that part of the shadow. The fact that aiming the stick at it also "works" confirms yet again that the shadow's position relative to the actual contact point is random.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Neil:
If you look back, you will see that Keeb says...

By the way, Neil, if you look back you will see that Keeb also says to use only the darkest shadow. If the "system" must be different for different circumstances, then it isn't really a single "system", is it?

pj
chgo

 

[softshot]

Actually, Keeb's method is to aim the CB contact point at that part of the shadow. The fact that aiming the stick at it also "works" confirms yet again that the shadow's position relative to the actual contact point is random.

pj
chgo

well... if they are different who do I call to buy the naming rights????


Keeb doesn't cock off online occasionally while drunk LOL... his name has to be worth more than mine

can some lawyers chime in here about the best way to steal this system and market it globally???

I'm even willing to rubber band a DVD to a liquid-wick cue... anything for a buck LMAO


:grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:

 

[mnorwood]

Keeb showed me this system. On my table it works with the way my lights are arranged. I have to agree withe Neil its a good reference to use. Its just another tool to use. I found that I lose the shadows when I get all the way down on my shot, however if you land in line its still effective.

I personally have no difficulties visualizing the ghost ball and compensating for throw so I have never used any aiming systems.

 

[greyghost]

Patrick look at your fourth pic....its off, your photoshop skills are either bad or your ruler is off....b/c shot 4 is right look closer my friend.

a birdie just flew in and helped me to help learn you something PJ......

here's a better more complete explanation for you to try and pull more of your hair out over.....have fun my friend:wink:

you want to aim the center of the CB at the spot the shadow appears when the cut is <= 15º.

For shots > 15º aim with the contact point on the CB and aim at the spot the shadow appears.

For close cuts 90º your goint to shoot the center of the cue ball at the edge of the furthest shadow....which is going to be outside of the perpendicular line dropped down from the edge of the ball.

go wrap your head around that....but you have to shoot using it....not push a camera button and take crappy pics you can hack up to make something look incorrect....

come on you can do better than that,
-Grey Ghost