I shall quote Mike Page at this point:
Seems like it's not clear at all what most people mean by a pause.
Pausing at the cue ball vs pausing on the back stroke
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
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I shall quote Mike Page at this point:
Seems like it's not clear at all what most people mean by a pause.
The cue's motion in an elliptical/locomotive stroke never stops/pauses
Good point. And folks are getting caught up in this notion, "an object in backward motion 'has' to come to a stop before it starts going in the forward/opposite direction." That notion is 100% FALSE. For one thing, it makes the assumption that the object in transit (the cue in our case) is traveling in a 100% straight line -- like a piston or a solenoid.
But what if the object in transit (again, the cue in our case) is NOT traveling in a 100% straight line? What if the object is traveling in an circular or elliptical motion -- as in a locomotive stroke like Mika Immonen possesses? In that case, although the "backward motion" of the cue slows down and comes to a stop (at a precise moment in time) before "forward motion" begins, the cue itself does NOT stop -- it is still in constant motion. At that point when the cue's "forward motion" has come to the very end of the ellipsis, it is still in motion and on its upward travel at that precise point in the ellipsis.
Chia Ching Wu is another example of a somewhat elliptical stroke, although not nearly as pronounced as Mika (as well as the fact that Wu has a pause at the "set" position). When you watch players such as these two, you see a very smooth transition of backward-to-forward motion, yet the cue's motion itself NEVER STOPS.
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Good point. And folks are getting caught up in this notion, "an object in backward motion 'has' to come to a stop before it starts going in the forward/opposite direction." That notion is 100% FALSE. For one thing, it makes the assumption that the object in transit (the cue in our case) is traveling in a 100% straight line -- like a piston or a solenoid.
But what if the object in transit (again, the cue in our case) is NOT traveling in a 100% straight line? What if the object is traveling in an circular or elliptical motion -- as in a locomotive stroke like Mika Immonen possesses? In that case, although the "backward motion" of the cue slows down and comes to a stop (at a precise moment in time) before "forward motion" begins, the cue itself does NOT stop -- it is still in constant motion. At that point when the cue's "forward motion" has come to the very end of the ellipsis, it is still in motion and on its upward travel at that precise point in the ellipsis.
Chia Ching Wu is another example of a somewhat elliptical stroke, although not nearly as pronounced as Mika (as well as the fact that Wu has a pause at the "set" position). When you watch players such as these two, you see a very smooth transition of backward-to-forward motion, yet the cue's motion itself NEVER STOPS.
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
OK, I wasn't clear: are you saying that all players have three distinct, or deliberate pauses in their strokes?
Lou Figueroa
Well, sure. Everyone must obey the laws. But there is a difference between a deliberate pause, and just setting up to get your bearings, changing directions, and completing the motion
If you're teaching people to pause, then it follows that you are teaching people to do more than comply with the laws of physics, which they will have to do anyway. Are you not trying to get them to do something more deliberate?
And thanks for the stroke compliment.
Lou Figueroa
A Bull Whip has a pause...
These are the things that I focus on.
First when I get down I hold the cue still so I can aim. If you were aiming a gun would you be wiggling it around.
Second, then take a couple of practice strokes and then pause again to make sure it looks right still.
Third, don't come back to quick on the backstroke and then come forward quickly.
Think of it like you see this guy you want to sucker punch and he doesn't know it's coming. he's not even looking. Bring the backstroke back at a reasonable speed that is not too fast. Then stroke forward.
There are so many other things that are involved. This is just a very isolated part of the total process.
The main thing is not to bring the backstroke back too quick and try to jerk it forward right away. Sometimes a pause is neccessary to stop a player from doing this. But i don't think the pause at the back stroke is beneficial one way or another.
Now on the break, that is another issue.......
First when I get down I hold the cue still so I can aim. If you were aiming a gun would you be wiggling it around.
Second, then take a couple of practice strokes and then pause again to make sure it looks right still.
Third, don't come back to quick on the backstroke and then come forward quickly.
Think of it like you see this guy you want to sucker punch and he doesn't know it's coming. he's not even looking. Bring the backstroke back at a reasonable speed that is not too fast. Then stroke forward.
There are so many other things that are involved. This is just a very isolated part of the total process.
The main thing is not to bring the backstroke back too quick and try to jerk it forward right away. Sometimes a pause is neccessary to stop a player from doing this. But i don't think the pause at the back stroke is beneficial one way or another.
Now on the break, that is another issue.......
"Now on the break, that is another issue......."
Why is that Geno?
Do you change the speed of your back stroke on the Break Shot?.....SPF=randyg
Very true BUT it still stops it's backward direction. There was never a doubt about those strokes........SPF=randyg
Actually SPF teaches the student how to take their cue stick backwards with out having to re-grip or re-align their cue stick before starting the forward motion.....whew. Now I know I'm long winded...SPF=randyg
See if you can find a pause, either before or after the back stroke in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JM3FLwCrCk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JM3FLwCrCk
That brought back memories....thanks.
Yes I watched Efren stop his cue in his warm-ups and at the end of his back stroke. He also stopped his cue when he was done with the shot. Nothing pronounced as some but definitely there....thanks...SPF=randyg
When discussing a "pause" in a backstroke (and when not discussing physiology--which I doubt is an interest of most of the posters here), it's only of interest to discuss an INTENTIONAL pause. Aren't there numerous instructors here? Wouldn't the topic under discussion be whether they should recommended that players INTENTIONALLY pause at the end of the backstroke?
If the answer is yes (it really must be) then it's only INTENTIONAL pauses that should be under discussion.
It's a neurological/physiological fact that if one is CONSCIOUSLY and DELIBERATELY moving their arm through a backstroke, then there MUST be a slight "dwell time" after the backstroke, in order to then consciously order the body to stop, and begin moving forward.
That kind of "dwell time" CANNOT be the "pause" that is recommended by those who recommend a "pause." Why not? Because it results not from a mental attempt to "pause," but from a mental attempt to consciously and deliberately backstroke. If those recommending a pause were really recommending a conscious and deliberate backstroke followed by a conscious and deliberate initiation of the final forward stroke, then that is explicitly what they would recommend (one would hope).
Cuesports are a sport more about PROPRIOCEPTION rather even than sight--which is why people who have good form can make shots with their eyes closed, but couldn't COME CLOSE to making shots with their musclular proprioception deactivated. Someone without muscular proprioception would look like a spastic retard trying to make a pool shot. A blind person would look just like anybody else shooting pool--they just wouldn't know what direction to shoot in.
The "pause" some may imagine they see in the first video I linked was not a consciously intended pause, but a simple, direct "dwell-point" seen by someone making a conscious backstroke followed by a conscious change, and a consious forward stroke.** Simply recommending to someone that they "pause" after a backstroke will not produce the action seen (they might make a swinging, UNconscious backstroke, following by a swinging UNconsious forward stroke--with a conscious pause separating them). OTOH, recommending that one make a conscious backstroke, and "feel" the movement consciously (i.e., maximize conscious awareness of proprioception), and then consciously initiate a forward stroke (i.e., attempt to repeat the recent proprioceptive experience in reverse) will result in a dwell time between the two that isn't AT ALL a conscious "pause." In that case, it might even be a DISTRACTION to recommend to the person to "pause" after the backstroke.
**The only way such a person could ELIMINATE a dwell time would be to consciously STOP full awareness of the backstroke BEFORE it was finished (and turn the movement over to a cerebellar controlled "programmed action" for the last six inches or so) and begin to PLAN to stop and forward stroke without taking the time needed to first CONSCIOUSLY stop and begin a forward stroke). Since the intention is to be fully aware of the backstroke, that can't happen, and a dwell point naturally occurs, during which one consciously STOPS the backstroke and consciously initiates a forward movement. The dwell point is NOT a conscious pause (that one would plan as a result of instruction), but simply an ineluctable result of stringing two conscious, but opposing, movements together. It doesn't NEED to be performed as an intentional form, because it's only an unavoidable physical reality.
Those who see players like Ronnie experience that dwell-time, and then try to "pause" at the end of their backstrokes in an attempt to "do what he does" will in fact be SABOTAGING THEMSELVES, and NOT mentally doing what Ronnie is in fact doing (consciously backstroking, and never thinking about "pausing"). Which, btw, doesn't change the fact that in the SECOND video discussed he indeed DOES appear to be consciously pausing between backstroke and forward stroke.
Randy:
But the point of contention in this (and other threads on this "cue motion change-of-direction") is whether there's "always a pause" at the point in time when the motion's direction changes. In an ellipsis, there is no pause -- at least from the purest definition of the word pause, which means to "stall" for a measurable period of time. At the very apex of the ellipsis (in the locomotive or elliptical stroke of the cue), where the "backward direction" of the cue has essentially stopped, it doesn't "pause" there, because the cue is still in motion. In fact, mathematically, when an object traveling on that ellipsis "makes that turn" or "turns the bend" to go from backward to forward at the very "tip" of that ellipsis, the change in direction (if you want to call it "direction" -- it really isn't in the purest sense because the object is not traveling in a straight line) is INSTANTANEOUS.
Think of a roller coaster that's in the process of climbing a steep incline -- one with a rounded "tip" or apex at the top. We know that the roller coaster doesn't "stop" or "pause" at the top. (That is, unless, the operator of the roller coaster presses a button to completely stop all physical motion of the roller coaster cars at the top of the hill, for pure "rider hang-time adrenaline enjoyment" purposes while the riders look and contemplate their downwards plunge.) Rather, once the roller coaster has reached the apex of the hill and "rounds the bend" at the top, the roller coaster makes the INSTANTANEOUS transition from "upwards" to "downwards" motion -- there is no "pause" or "stall" here. (This again is assuming there's no flat area on the top of that hill.)
Let's take an easily-envisioned example of a roller coaster with only one car, climbing a hill, and the hill was as steep an incline and drop-off as possible. (This is to replicate the compressed ellipse of a locomotive stroke like Mika's.) Let's say you were a bald guy riding in that car. Let's suppose there was a perfectly placed downwards-pointing felt-tip marker pen mounted at the top of the hill where the very top of your head would lightly touch it as you came to the uppermost point of that rounded apex of the hill. The top of your head would do just that -- it would lightly touch the tip of the felt-tip marker pen and immediately pull away, leaving a very short "graze mark" on the top of your head. The graze mark would start out very light, smoothly increase in diameter to the maximum diameter of the felt-tip marker's tip, and then immediately start decreasing diameter until the felt-tip marker's tip lost contact with the top of your head on your way down the other side of the hill. At no point in that graze mark will you see any point where the graze mark stayed the same diameter / line thickness for any length of time -- proving there was no "pause" up there. The only way that would be possible, is if the top of the hill were flat -- and in that case, it would no longer be elliptically shaped, but in fact squared-off -- which in our example of a locomotive / elliptical stroke, can't possibly happen unless the player has an "upward ratchet" lifting jerk motion in his/her stroke, which noone has.
I hope that helps explain it,
-Sean
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The many videos offered up by different posters show a WIDE VARIATION in what happens between backstroke and forward stroke among excellent players with otherwise "good" form. Some show clearly that they are making a conscious and intentional STOP after their backstroke. Some just as clearly show that they DO NOT have any intention to stop or "pause" after their backstroke.
The differences arise from INDIVIDUAL (one might say PERSONALITY) differences in COGNITIVE STYLE--in their attempts to learn how to hit the CB exactly as they want/intend to.
There is simply NO KNOWN BASIS for judging one style (intentional pause vs no intentional pause) to be preferable to another (while there IS a logical basis for stating that, for example, a straight, smooth stroke is easier to learn and control than a wobbling and jerky stroke).
Those recommending a "pause" are simply expressing their own fetish--and have no logical or cognitive basis for the recommendation.
The differences arise from INDIVIDUAL (one might say PERSONALITY) differences in COGNITIVE STYLE--in their attempts to learn how to hit the CB exactly as they want/intend to.
There is simply NO KNOWN BASIS for judging one style (intentional pause vs no intentional pause) to be preferable to another (while there IS a logical basis for stating that, for example, a straight, smooth stroke is easier to learn and control than a wobbling and jerky stroke).
Those recommending a "pause" are simply expressing their own fetish--and have no logical or cognitive basis for the recommendation.
You don't have to explain anything, I agree with you. I have studied strokes for 50 years now.
Some players have a circular motion back, others have a straight back and a intentional pause while other come straight back and have a very un-noticeable stop. Who does it best is the best at doing it....SPF=randyg
Interesting. I wrote quite a bit that is objectively "knowing what I'm talking about" and nothing about my own feelings. Perhaps what I wrote is beyond what you're able to understand?
You, OTOH, apparently remain unable (or at least unwilling) to provide any putative "logical or cognitive basis" for the recommendation--just as you were clearly unable to provide any logical or geometric basis for CTE. The only "point" (that isn't a point) you seem able to contribute is: "it works." I've discussed before the GREAT difficulty, suffered throughout the history of science, in determining whether something REALLY "works." Personal attestations that something "works" are widely known to be unreliable--without an associated REASON or causal plausibility to explain why the technique (or other snake oil) should be assumed to "work."
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