Earl's Elbow

Petros Andrikop said:
... The difference in "short" (no elbow drop) and "continuous" (elbow drop) follow through
...
I'm sure you will agree that a soft tip "grabs" the cueball "more" - remains in contact more with the cueball during stroke.
...
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A softer tip does stay in contact with a CB a little longer than a harder tip, but the time of contact is still extremely small (close to 0.001 sec). Nothing you do with your grip, stroke, or follow-through during or after this contact time can have an affect on the CB. Now, using a different type of stroke and/or follow through can certainly affect (directly or indirectly) what happens to the cue before CB contact, and that will certainly have an effect on the CB. For more information on this topic, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
Masayoshi said:
The last time we had this discussion, nobody could seem to post an example of a pro level player with a static elbow on hard shots. The best they could do was find people with a small drop, maybe 2 or 3 inches. They would definitely not like a hot cup of coffee up there.
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I think Tony Robles might be an example. He has the stillest elbow on power shots of all the top players I've watched for this.
 
To dr_dave:
My point exactly: A very small difference which does exist! And it does affect CB reaction, so it has a practical difference in the outcome of a shot.
Thank you,
Petros
 
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Not sure why we have 3 pages on this when we have thousands of hours of examples with all the top players dropping the elbow.

If you want to win against weak players, don't elbow drop.

If you want to beat really good players and shoot like they do on TV, elbow drop.

Instructors teaching to not drop elbow are old school and behind the current game or only teaching weaker players.


Before, after, during is a moot point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSsEki_hj2Q go to 20:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrvDW1QKu5U go to 8:03 where does his elbow go?

the two greatest players for the last two decades is the rumour.

and rodney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ1dbuZ2g7A at 29;50.

Rodney is a great player, but I think his stroke is flawed. He has this little jab stroke with tons of wrist, but you can clearly seen shots with elbow drop.
 
To randyg:
Thank you again for replying.
As I also stated, the CB knows nothing everybody agrees with that.
The drop elbow technique is recognized from world champions in all divisions.
Oliver Ortmann from whom I had the honor to learn a few parts of the game also stands behind it. I only mentioned 3c players as first came to mind.
Principles regarding CB behavior apply to all games.
The e.g. of pause was mentioned to show the different approaches in any given subject. There is more than one truth..
So I believe there is nothing to argue about, each approach to stroke technique is acceptable here.
I'm not good with graphics, I will try to provide specific examples of the drop elbow technique in the future.
Best Regards,
Petros
 
can you say who are the players who don't drop their elbow? I think there are a very small number of players who don't drop the elbow.
Actually almost all the pros drop the elbow:
Reyes, Strickland, Archer, SVB, Deuel, Pagulayan, Mike Siegel ( i have never seen him don't drop the elbow lol), Ronnie o' sullivan ( almost on every shot ), Stephen Hendry, John Higgins, Alex Higgins, Steve Davis, Neil Robertson, Torbjorn Blomhdal, Mike Massey, frederic caudron, Evgeny Stalev, these are only a small number of names but there are much more. Actually i think almost 90% of pros drop the elbow. Obviously i'm saying dropping the elbow after the tip struck the cueball and not before.
 
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Petros Andrikop said:
To randyg:
Thank you again for replying.
As I also stated, the CB knows nothing everybody agrees with that.
The drop elbow technique is recognized from world champions in all divisions.
Oliver Ortmann from whom I had the honor to learn a few parts of the game also stands behind it. I only mentioned 3c players as first came to mind.
Principles regarding CB behavior apply to all games.
The e.g. of pause was mentioned to show the different approaches in any given subject. There is more than one truth..
So I believe there is nothing to argue about, each approach to stroke technique is acceptable here.
I'm not good with graphics, I will try to provide specific examples of the drop elbow technique in the future.
Best Regards,
Petros
Click to expand...


Petros: I have enjoyed our discussion. I'm always willing to learn something new. Have a great day.....SPF=randyg
 
Jason Robichaud said:
Not sure why we have 3 pages on this when we have thousands of hours of examples with all the top players dropping the elbow.

If you want to win against weak players, don't elbow drop.

If you want to beat really good players and shoot like they do on TV, elbow drop.

Instructors teaching to not drop elbow are old school and behind the current game or only teaching weaker players.


Before, after, during is a moot point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSsEki_hj2Q go to 20:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrvDW1QKu5U go to 8:03 where does his elbow go?

the two greatest players for the last two decades is the rumour.

and rodney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ1dbuZ2g7A at 29;50.

Rodney is a great player, but I think his stroke is flawed. He has this little jab stroke with tons of wrist, but you can clearly seen shots with elbow drop.
Click to expand...



Thanks: I just watched this vid: (and rodney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ1dbuZ2g7A at 29;50.)

I forgot how pretty Danny's stroke is. Stop on the cue ball, pause on the back stroke, finish to the same position.....wow.
SPF=randyg
 
Petros Andrikop said:
dr_dave said:
A softer tip does stay in contact with a CB a little longer than a harder tip, but the time of contact is still extremely small (close to 0.001 sec). Nothing you do with your grip, stroke, or follow-through during or after this contact time can have an affect on the CB. Now, using a different type of stroke and/or follow through can certainly affect (directly or indirectly) what happens to the cue before CB contact, and that will certainly have an effect on the CB. For more information on this topic, see:
Click to expand...
My point exactly: A very small difference which does exist! And it does affect CB reaction, so it has a practical difference in the outcome of a shot.
Click to expand...
The data does show that a softer tip will have a slightly longer contact time, but I disagree that this can have a significant practical effect. Reasons supporting this up can be found here:

If you disagree with any of the evidence or statements in these links, I would be happy to discuss them.

I agree that intuitively, it would seem that a change in contact time could have a large effect, but this isn't the case with typical tips. Now, if the contact time were extended much longer than typical tips (e.g., tenths of seconds vs. thousandths of seconds), then the story would be very different. In this case, the amount of squirt would be ridiculous, and miscues would be more frequent.

Regards,
Dave
 
To dr_dave:
The difference according to tip IMHO does have a practical value so does the drop elbow technique compared to non elbow drop.
As I stated in a previous post they apply mostly in categorising stroke techniques for the player, assisiting in setting standards in terms of execution..
You can achieve a certain result hitting the CB in different ways, there's more than one truth as I also stated..
The point is that usually short stroke is applied to certain situations and drob elbow to other. Top thinking champions stand behind this approach and their consistency in results is the ultimate practical proof.
Thanks again to all for sharing your valuable info on this subject!
Petros
 
Petros Andrikop said:
To dr_dave:
The difference according to tip IMHO does have a practical value so does the drop elbow technique compared to non elbow drop.
As I stated in a previous post they apply mostly in categorising stroke techniques for the player, assisiting in setting standards in terms of execution..
You can achieve a certain result hitting the CB in different ways, there's more than one truth as I also stated..
The point is that usually short stroke is applied to certain situations and drob elbow to other. Top thinking champions stand behind this approach and their consistency in results is the ultimate practical proof.
Thanks again to all for sharing your valuable info on this subject!
Petros
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Thank you for your clarification ... and you're welcome for the info.

Putting it this way makes more sense. People can certainly change the outcome of the shot by changing what they do with their grip, elbow motion, follow-through, etc. during the stroke. It is true that what is done during or after cue tip impact has no direct influence on the shot, but these things can certainly have an indirect influence on the stroke into the ball. For example, a long follow through (with elbow drop) might enable a player to accelerate into the ball and generate more cue speed more smoothly.

Regards,
Dave
 
I'm not sure if I would call indirect the effect of drow elbow technique or the effect of different kinds of tips used in stroke.
Top players stand behind these details not for theoretical discussion but for direct actual application of them in certain situations coming up during play.
I believe as I have been tought and studied that there is actual difference in CB behaviour according to drop and non drop elbow techniques.
It does actually work.. Whether it comes from actual physical characteristics of each technique or from feedback feeling providing to the player in each case allowing him/her to achieve a desired result that's an issue..
Especially Raymond Ceulemans I don't think he would stand behind the difference between them for no reason..
I just have now an idea which I believe could solve the matter once and for all:
The robot Meucci used to study deflection:
Keeping stable aim, spin and speed("medium") a shot could be studied by making the robot execute a short follow through and then a long follow through, resembling non drop and drop elbow techniques respectively.
If the theory of players using both techniques stands true the CB should have more side spin coming off the cushion resulting in a wider renounce angle when a short follow through is applied, compared to a longer one.
If this doesn't happen this would lead to the conclusion that the different results arrive from unconscious compensation of the playe's mind in each case.
Whatever the results are the practical value of using drop elbow technique in certain cases remains since it does help achieving specific shots easier at least..
Thank you,
Petros
 
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Petros Andrikop said:
I'm not sure if I would call indirect the effect of drow elbow technique or the effect of different kinds of tips used in stroke.
Top players stand behind these details not for theoretical discussion but for direct actual application of them in certain situations coming up during play.
I believe as I have been tought and studied that there is actual difference in CB behaviour according to drop and non drop elbow techniques.
It does actually work.. Whether it comes from actual physical characteristics of each technique or from feedback feeling providing to the player in each case allowing him/her to achieve a desired result that's an issue..
Especially Raymond Ceulemans I don't think he would stand behind the difference between them for no reason..
I just have now an idea which I believe could solve the matter once and for all:
The robot Meucci used to study deflection:
Keeping stable aim, spin and speed("medium") a shot could be studied by making the robot execute a short follow through and then a long follow through, resembling non drop and drop elbow techniques respectively.
If the theory of players using both techniques stands true the CB should have more side spin coming off the cushion resulting in a wider renounce angle when a short follow through is applied, compared to a longer one.
If this doesn't happen this would lead to the conclusion that the different results arrive from unconscious compensation of the playe's mind in each case.
Whatever the results are the practical value of using drop elbow technique in certain cases remains since it does help achieving specific shots easier at least..
Thank you,
Petros
Click to expand...



Hi Petros. Let me help solve your problem.
Show me a shot that I have to drop my elbow to complete the task. I will try to perform it without an elbow drop....SPF=randyg
 
GetMeThere said:
I've noted (to myself) before that Earl has a very distinctive, intentional follow-through that involves dropping his elbow. But the fact remains that he does it AFTER the CB has already been struck so, functionally, it doesn't matter.
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In the endless arguements about the pendulem stroke on these forums I cannot remember a single moment when a person was saying one should drop the elbow before contact. It was in fact clearly stated many times extending back years ago that it was an after contact follow-through thing. And it is that very after contact follow-through elbow drop that a huge number of BCA instructors try to teach out of peoples strokes.

The arguement was always elbow drop after contact. Now you are simply attempting to pretend that the arguement was somehow pre-contact and that noone ever said a peep about elbow drop on the follow-through. Wrong.
 
I still suggest scientific proof should involve a robot similar to the one Meucci used in order to avoid subconscious compensation from player's mind/hands.
I also agree with the post above that we always refer to drop elbow after contact.
There is no "problem" for me and no point of arguing about this.
There is more than one truth and authority in this game like in most things in life, even science!
There are champions of this 6 billion planet that do drop elbow for a reason in certain shots and do not drop elbow again for a reason in other shots.
That's the practical proof which cannot be denied.
The scientific one needs the proper equipment setup.
Thank you,
Petros
 
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Celtic said:
In the endless arguements about the pendulem stroke on these forums I cannot remember a single moment when a person was saying one should drop the elbow before contact. It was in fact clearly stated many times extending back years ago that it was an after contact follow-through thing. And it is that very after contact follow-through elbow drop that a huge number of BCA instructors try to teach out of peoples strokes.

The arguement was always elbow drop after contact. Now you are simply attempting to pretend that the arguement was somehow pre-contact and that noone ever said a peep about elbow drop on the follow-through. Wrong.
Click to expand...

Sorry. I wasn't talking about past discussions that YOU'VE had, and I HAVEN'T. How could I be?

I was merely stating the useful fact (if it's true--it's difficult to be ABSOLUTELY certain from watching normal speed videos) that Earls' elbow drop couldn't actually affect his SHOT (directly), since the shot was already over before (most, but not all, presume) he drops his elbow.

Dr. Dave lists a piston stroke which he describes as (emphasis mine): "where you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder to keep the cue tip moving in a straight line during the entire stroke." The existence of such a phenomenon means that determining when the elbow drops should be the first part of discussing someone's stroke style.

Just because Earl takes warm-up strokes in pure pendulum style doesn't mean he MUST do his actual stroke in pendulum style (although it's my opinion that he does--and that the elbow drop happens AFTER the CB is struck).

Do you have access to a high speed, slow-motion video of Earl's stroke, so that we can see when he drops his elbow?
 
Petros Andrikop said:
I still suggest scientific proof should involve a robot similar to the one Meucci used in order to avoid subconscious compensation from player's mind/hands.
I also agree with the post above that we always refer to drop elbow after contact.
There is no "problem" for me and no point of arguing about this.
There is more than one truth and authority in this game like in most things in life, even science!
There are champions of this 6 billion planet that do drop elbow for a reason in certain shots and do not drop elbow again for a reason in other shots.
That's the practical proof which cannot be denied.
The scientific one needs the proper equipment setup.Thank you,
Petros
Click to expand...



Yes, called the Jacksonville Experiments!
SPF=randyg
 
Thank you, this is very valuable food for thought!
I have to respectfully argue though, since I think no camera observation could overcome the results of a similar to Meucci robot test.
This method could completely remove any subconscious compensation a player might or might not make during altering between these two techniques.
As far as the players concerned I also have to insist that the opinion of world champions does count more at least from a practical point of view.
Whatever the science behind it, you cannot take out the opinion of any person who has studied the game in great depth and reached the title of world champion..
As I wrote I'll try to provide diagrams of shots.
World champions stand behind the use of elbow drop and non elbow drop techniques according to the shot. You actually see them alternating between the two techniques during professional play! Their success which includes drop elbow techniques has been tested perfectly in the battle field. Again, this is enough proof for me that this is an importand detail about stroke with a practical not just theoretical outcome. They wouldn't use it otherwise..
Petros
 
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