Earl's Elbow

Well, since i started this thread let me add what i've always said and what i always feel......

1) if you can deliver the cue tip straight through the contact point/line in a repeating fashion it makes no difference what else is happening.

2) i'm surprised someone hasnt brought up the age old argument of which ball do you look at last - CB or OB. seems like recently alot more are either saying CB or it doesnt matter. again, if you can successfully accomplish paragraph (1) it doesnt matter what you are looking at. for me it has always been and always will be the CB.

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
Well, since i started this thread let me add what i've always said and what i always feel......

1) if you can deliver the cue tip straight through the contact point/line in a repeating fashion it makes no difference what else is happening.

2) i'm surprised someone hasnt brought up the age old argument of which ball do you look at last - CB or OB. seems like recently alot more are either saying CB or it doesnt matter. again, if you can successfully accomplish paragraph (1) it doesnt matter what you are looking at. for me it has always been and always will be the CB.

DCP
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So how is that working out for you?
SPF=randyg
 
randyg said:
So how is that working out for you?
SPF=randyg
Click to expand...

well, i just ran five (5) racks of 9-Ball. and nope, it didnt take me four hours to do it.

but i did also hose up another couple of runouts. i missed a very makeable 9-ball and another time over-cooked a draw shot and got snookered behind the 9-ball.

but, Randy, just so you will know......i still practice the mother drills, use Simpson's Stroke Groover, and try and keep that elbow at least somewhat still.

Mike
 
The names of the champions I mentioned were not by chance.
They are extremely knowledgable about the game and absolute thinkers.
I forgot to add Ralf Souquet who is one of the top thinking pros of all times. He also drops elbow in certain cases(for e.g. long draw shots), he is the most systematic player I've ever watched and I've been watching him on tv and live on numerous occasions since 1992.
He is the guy that does nothing in chance...
Nor did ever Raymond Ceulemans. Oliver Ortmann is also an extremely good teacher, very successful. And Earl Strickland do not be fooled he is a real joy when he is talking about pool.
These guys do know much much better than anyone else.
Efren Reyes on the other hand, also an elbow dropper by the way, I never met him in person but from the way he talks on tv I cannot imagine him as an instructor.
I googled Jacksonville Experiments and I see nowhere a similar to Meucci robot test shot.
I'll try to be back with diagrams of shot examples.
Petros
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
well, i just ran five (5) racks of 9-Ball. and nope, it didnt take me four hours to do it.

but i did also hose up another couple of runouts. i missed a very makeable 9-ball and another time over-cooked a draw shot and got snookered behind the 9-ball.

but, Randy, just so you will know......i still practice the mother drills, use Simpson's Stroke Groover, and try and keep that elbow at least somewhat still.

Mike
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I perform Mother Drill #1 fourteen times a day just to keep my stroke sub-conscious. My elbow settles a little bit. At about 5-6 inches after contact my elbow tugs down slightly....randyg
 
Petros Andrikop said:
... I googled Jacksonville Experiments and I see nowhere a similar to Meucci robot test shot. ...
Click to expand...
Many of the shots done in the Jacksonville Experiments were done by "Iron Willie" which was the Predator equivalent of Meucci's "Myth Destroyer" robot. But it doesn't take a robot to see what is happening on the table and what is important. One of the people involved with those experiments was Hans de Jager who at one time held the record for highest score in the Artistic Billiards European championship. If you have a chance to meet him, you may want to ask him about what he feels he learned from the experiments.
 
Petros Andrikop said:
... This method could completely remove any subconscious compensation a player might or might not make during altering between these two techniques.
As far as the players concerned I also have to insist that the opinion of world champions does count more at least from a practical point of view.
Whatever the science behind it, you cannot take out the opinion of any person who has studied the game in great depth and reached the title of world champion...
Click to expand...
Check out these two articles by Tom Ross, a very good player, excellent instructor, and long-time instructional columnist:
Tom and I had similar discussions and debates in the past concerning the effects of "stroke type." After we did some high-speed filming and observations of tip contact points on marked cue balls, he realized his assumptions were incorrect. Although, as a player, the different techniques did allow him to achieve what he wanted to, in a way different from what other players (e.g., non elbow-droppers) might.

Again, "stroke type" can affect the outcome of a shot, but not always for the reasons people think. Please check out the articles. A lot of time and effort went into reaching those conclusions.

For more info, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
I checked the articles they are great thank you!
I also respect and recognize the opinion of certified instructors and value it more than mine.
But: until the experiment I described above takes place I believe we can have no final scientific proof.
Tom Ross is great no doubt, but Ralf Souquet has been the definition of professional player for the last 20 years.
He is the ultimate thinker, the ultimate knowledgable player, fully studied and absolutely aware of every detail in each shot. So much that he is frightening from this point of view.
If he chooses drop elbow techniques in certain shots believe it there is a reason for it.
The reason a guy like that chooses would never be without practical importance or just for providing him a certain feeling on a shot.. It arrives through years of study in depth.
In any case the definite scientific proof (the practical one needs no further arguments since champions of this world stand behind it) will come from a similar to Meucci robot shot which completely eliminates human factors. Careful study of cameras provides explanation of what is happening but how about the minor differences that are detected affect play has to be studied by a robot.
Once again:
Make that robot shoot straight to a rail keeping stable aim/side spin/ speed and study the outcome between a short and a long follow through.
That's all!
If the CB bounces off with more spin and a greater angle from the cushion when a short follow through is applied compared to a long one, then what I'm talking about stands true.
If it doesn't this means that the reason for getting different results is only subconscious compensation from the player.
It's that simple!
Whatever the outcome, the practical application of using both techniques, drop and non drop elbow, still remains as world champions have proven it throughout the years of competitive pool as we know it.
In respect,
Petros
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
ok, just so we know what i am talking about since i am the OP. here's a link to the Strickland/Reyes U.S. Open match. if you get up to the 32:08 mark you will see Earl pocketing the 1-Ball into the corner. notice how his elbow drops. ...
Click to expand...
But notice that his elbow rises during the backswing. He seems to be shooting -- at least partly -- from the shoulder. If I had a student who had trouble hitting the ball where they intended, I suggest that they fix that. Whether Earl should try to fix it is a different matter. Does he have trouble hitting where he intends?
 
Bob Jewett said:
But notice that his elbow rises during the backswing. He seems to be shooting -- at least partly -- from the shoulder. If I had a student who had trouble hitting the ball where they intended, I suggest that they fix that. Whether Earl should try to fix it is a different matter. Does he have trouble hitting where he intends?
Click to expand...

yes, you're correct, his elbow does rise during the backswing. but that is also contrary to what i've been told. which is......keep that elbow still!

DCP
 
dr_dave said:
Check out these two articles by Tom Ross, a very good player, excellent instructor, and long-time instructional columnist:
Tom and I had similar discussions and debates in the past concerning the effects of "stroke type." After we did some high-speed filming and observations of tip contact points on marked cue balls, he realized his assumptions were incorrect. Although, as a player, the different techniques did allow him to achieve what he wanted to, in a way different from what other players (e.g., non elbow-droppers) might.

Again, "stroke type" can affect the outcome of a shot, but not always for the reasons people think. Please check out the articles. A lot of time and effort went into reaching those conclusions.

For more info, see:

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

I fall very much in the middle in this discussion. Here's why: while it might not be mechanically necessary for a pendulum stroker--who hits the CB fully within a pendulum strike--to then go into an elbow drop, it MAY be NEUROLOGICALLY "necessary" (I won't claim to know this for a fact).

Many things about the mind are still only poorly understood at best.

I once read a book about stretching written by a sports performance scientist, and read something I found bizarre--yet is instantly demonstrably true: If you can put your straight leg up and out mostly to the side, and rest your heel at about a 90 degree angle (i.e., leg parallel to the floor) on a table/chair/whatever, then you have NO MECHANICAL IMPEDIMENT whatsoever to doing a FULL SIDE SPLIT. You DO NOT NEED to be more "flexible" in terms of how your muscles stretch. The reason is simple and obvious (and which I can confirm after one semester of dedicated but tedious medical anatomy): There is no physical connection whatsoever from one of your legs to the other. If you can put each leg up, one at a time, in the approximate split configuration, then there is no anatomical reason that you can't put them BOTH up at the same time and do the full split.

The actual reason that you CAN'T is a matter of CNS processing: One of the many reflex mechanisms in your brain creates a SET POINT that limits the amount your legs "should" spread apart (i.e., there's no normal body position in daily life in which you have to do a side split). Your brains sends a signal to the appropriate leg muscles, when your legs go far enough apart, to STOP muscle release beyond that point. (the rest of the book discusses the couple of ways one can overcome the limitation, or "retrain" the mind to allow the body the full range of motion when it's asked for.

So, the same "could be" part of stroke. The brain may be somewhat loosely wired to DISALLOW high speed/high force movement across the elbow alone--and it may "insist" that the full arm movement becomes involved in what would be considered a high-powered movement.

Now, of course, you can FOOL that reflex by getting done what you intend (hitting the CB) BEFORE the elbow drop wants to occur--but it may be that there's a strong component of pre-wired reflex/movement that practically "insists" that we involve the shoulder and back in high force arm movements.
 
Petros Andrikop said:
... definite scientific proof ... will come from a similar to Meucci robot shot which completely eliminates human factors.
...
Make that robot shoot straight to a rail keeping stable aim/side spin/ speed and study the outcome between a short and a long follow through.
...
If the CB bounces off with more spin and a greater angle from the cushion when a short follow through is applied compared to a long one, then what I'm talking about stands true.
Click to expand...
I have used robots to test for squirt and English under various conditions. Many of the results can be viewed here:
"Squirt - Part VII: cue test machine results" (BD, February, 2008).
"Return of the squirt robot" (BD, August, 2008)​

I agree that robot tests like this can dispel many myths (see the articles for more info).

I can tell you with confidence that a robot's follow-through has no effect the CB speed or English.

Now, if the cue is still accelerating (i.e., the speed is still increasing) at impact, there can be slight increase in CB speed and spin, but this effect is very small (especially with a human). For more info on this topic, see:
For a given cue and tip, all that really matters is the cue speed and tip position (and cue elevation) at impact.

Now, if the robot "grip" is too rigid (i.e., more rigid than a tight human grip), then the physics can change (e.g., double hits can occur with off-center hits).

Concerning some of your observations, what might change for a human when using different stroke styles or types (e.g., elbow drop or not) is the speed and tip position at impact. This could explain a lot.

Regards,
Dave
 
Thank you again for all this great info provided!
Still I think the specific shot I proposed should be performed and recorded in video.
Even if the slightest difference in outcome is detected this could mean that physically it is minor, but practically essential due to subconscious compensations from the player.
Please someone just perform the specific shot and upload it in YouTube or anywhere.
This would provide the info necessary, without removing the practical value of using both techniques as world champions do.
Thank you,
Petros
 
Petros Andrikop said:
Thank you again for all this great info provided!
Click to expand...
You're welcome.

Petros Andrikop said:
Still I think the specific shot I proposed should be performed and recorded in video.
Even if the slightest difference in outcome is detected this could mean that physically it is minor, but practically essential due to subconscious compensations from the player.
Please someone just perform the specific shot and upload it in YouTube or anywhere.
Click to expand...
Could you explain exactly what you would like to see in video? If you do, I'll see what I can do.

Regards,
Dave
 
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