CTE/ PRO ONE with Stan Shuffett

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Still only an opinion. Nothing factual. Glad your holding onto it though.


In a past life, I had the opportunity to travel around the country and teach CEO-level peoples about crisis media relations. I know we're not in any crisis, but I think at least one central point from that experience applies here. In those classes I taught that Rule #1 -- no matter how bad the news -- was that you absolutely had to get out and tell your side of the story, or someone else would do it for you. And that's what's happen here. No one on the CTE side, for whatever reason, has stepped up to the plate. And now what you have is one of your most severe critics portraying your position for you :-)

So don't whine about it, you've had (and still have) plenty of chances.

Lou Figueroa
I know
I know
the DVD is coming
(whoopee)
 
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Me:
I haven't been offered lessons by several people who teach it.
Neil:
Spidey has offered, you turned him down.
Not true.

Neil:
John Barton was with you, you didn't care to hear what he had to say about it.
Johns' account of that is not true.

Neil:
Stan has a DVD coming out, that you have said you are not interested in.
I've said I'm probably not interested in paying $40 for it. Is that what you call "refusing to learn"?

Neil:
Need I go on??
No, I think your "truthiness" is clear enough. But you will, of course.

Me:
I don't refuse to learn it.
Neil:
Then why have you said that you won't learn it?
Show me where I said that and I'll tell you why.

Me:
I don't tell anybody it can't work.
Neil:
Yes you do. You just say that it can help people, but not for the reasons they think it does.
I often use the words "it works" when describing CTE. I've even argued against others, like GetMeThere, who say it doesn't.

You have stated numerous times that it does not work
I have not. I've always said "it works, but not the way its users claim (i.e., 'exactly')."

Me:
Have you really misunderstood all my posts, or isn't the truth enough to make whatever point you want to make about CTE?
Neil:
Nothing I have stated is untrue
That's untrue.

Neil:
I do not lie.
In my experience there's not much that CTE users can't make themselves believe.

pj
chgo
 
Interesting story. Here's one you might like....

Years ago, I snuck into The Sands Casino in Atlantic City with my friend, Kevin. Given, Kevin was mid-late twenties at the time and I was barely 18. We actually headed to Moosic, PA to play in a tournament at Arena Billiards. Unfortunately, we missed the draw. My father had given me $500 as a graduation present - so Kevin suggested, "F-it... let's just go to AC." It's funny how these stories always start with, "F-it... let's just go to AC."

At the time, I was pretty green when it came to gambling in general. Kevin, on the other hand, was a seasoned gambler and a super player. I knew Kevin played super poker so I gave him my $500 and told him to put in $500 and let's make a poker play. While he was playing, I basically pulled up a chair outside of the poker area and started to kill time smoking cigarettes - watching people walk by.

Out of nowhere, this older Italian fellow sits beside me, lit up a cigarette and asked me if I was even old enough to be in the casino. With conviction, I said, "Of course I am!"

"No you're not," he replied. "But that's ok-- I'm not a cop. My friend is playing over there and I'm just killing time--- I just wanted to rattle ya a little bit... I used to sneak in to casinos as well when I was your age."

Next thing you know we learn our friends are at the same table - so we sweat the game together. Before you know it, we find out everyone is a pool player! When this guy learned that I played pool, he asked if I was hungry and offered me dinner on his comps--- NICE guy. At the end of the night, we exchanged phone numbers and that was that.

(fast forward 3 or 5 months later....)

My phone rings and it's that guy. I didn't even recognize him at first but when he said "it's ___ from the Sands!" --- I immediately remembered who he was. He asked if there was a race track near me and I told them they just opened an OTW in my town, so yes. He said, "Dave, I want you to listen very carefully. Go to the OTW and bet the 4-6 exacta in race 3 in Yonkers. Don't box it, don't do anything stupid--- just bet that exacta, OK?"

I was like...ARE YOU SERIOUS??? I only had $2 to my name so I went into my mom's purse to steal a twenty-spot. I drove to the OTW and placed the bet and whaddya know!?!? The 4 pulled ahead the entire race with the 2 in second place with 6 way behind. I was like... I totally deserve this... what a retard I am. WAITTA MINUTE....HELLO!! The 2 started to fall back like it was retarded and the 6 looked like it got poked with steroids. Long story short..... whamo. I forgot how much $$$$ I won that day, but it was one of my biggest scores to date. When I got home, I replaced the money exactly how I found it in my mom's purse (if I kicked her some jelly--- she would have KNOWN something was up).

So.... the moral of the story is you never know. The guy in the black leather jacket may have been trying to sell some information. Horse racing is straight-up crooked and setup. Betting off the sheets is for stone-cold suckers. You're either in the "know" or you're not.... and that's what I learned when I was 18. I never heard from that guy again--- but it did "cure" me from visiting the track again.

Dave

Here's another:

You're number one, the next guy is number 2, and the next guy is number 3 and so on.

Flim-flam man goes to number one guy and tells him to bet x amount of dollars on the 6 horse in the next race. Flim-flam man tells the number two guy to bet on the 5 horse in the next race. Flim-flam man tells the next person to bet the7 horse and so on and so on , until all of the horses are covered by bets from at least one of the flim flam man suggestions. Flim-flam man remembers everyone he told the bet and "accidentally" sees the winning mark and they pat each other on the back. The man who makes the bet on the winning horse is contacted and now flim-flam man is now looking for his jelly. You are so greatful, if he misses every now and then with his info you are bound to forgive me for the slight error in the future. Flim-flam man occasionally works with another "expert" who acts as a shill for a piece of the action.
 
............. and the beat goes on. Jeez.

What bothers me is that there is so much condescension and the innuendo that seems to me to imply that there is a hustle being played out.
 
When I was around 12 or 13 years old, my grandfather would occasionally take me to the horse races. One day we were approached by a guy who casually asked my grandfather how he was doing (i.e., picking horses). I don't recall how my grandfather responded because it had little if nothing to do with the guy's follow up comment. The guy said that he was doing well that day at the track because there was this guy in a black leather jacket that had given him some great pics that day. He went on his way and in no more than 5 minutes a guy in a black leather jacket approached my grandfather and asked if was interested in some help picking the next race. My grandfather wasn't out on a one time adventure with his grandson that day. He frequently went to the race track and had been around the block more than a few times. While my grandfather and I didn't talk much about what had just happened, even at only 12-13years old I could spot the hustle.

Fast forward to about two months ago. A guy here on AZBilliards, from Michigan according to him, asked if there was a AZMember in the Baltimore area that could do him a favor and pick up a cue that was being sold in the Baltimore area and ship it to him. While I didn't completely understand what his motivation was, I felt as a member of this community that I would consider helping out. I responded to the thread and indicated that I was close to Baltimore but didn't offer anything else as I was waiting on him to respond back with details of how this would all work. He never replied to my comment that I did indeed live close to Baltimore and never asked for anything.

Interestingly enough, the next day, I got a private message from none other than Cookie Man asking:
Do you live near Baltimore and do you use Center To Edge?

It may be just a coincidence
but to me it felt just like the hustle from when I was 12years old at the race track with my grandfather!!!

Jerry, thanks for sharing your experience with your grandfather. I used to fish with mine in the warm summers of Minnesota. It was a real treat since I grew up in Chicago and the occasional open fire hydrant was the only water I ever saw.

I highlighted a part of your post I'm having trouble trying to understand. This exchange seems simple enough, but possibly the timing wasn't? I get the feeling the poster you singled out, who made an offering of dialogue/friendship, is scratching his head right now wondering what is going on?

I understand your radar blinking, but is pushing the "fire" button on a public forum the best diplomacy? I know I'm in the middle of somebody else's issue, but don't you agree this could be a tough pill to swallow if you were him? Nuff' said. JMO

Best,
Mike
 
Stan,

I am interested in your dvd simply because I am a voracious reader and love learning new things especially when it comes to pool. When will the paypal be available?
While I do admit I have some concerns purchasing a $45 dollar dvd (more than the price of a Capelle book) with what seems to be so much inaccurate information out there about "what" it is. Can I use English with this? Primarily vertical axis but I do use extreme depending on the hit. Can I get one simple example (be glad to give you my phone number or call you) that I can see and go "OH! that makes sense!"

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Rick Shellhouse
 
Stan,

I am interested in your dvd simply because I am a voracious reader and love learning new things especially when it comes to pool. When will the paypal be available?
While I do admit I have some concerns purchasing a $45 dollar dvd (more than the price of a Capelle book) with what seems to be so much inaccurate information out there about "what" it is. Can I use English with this? Primarily vertical axis but I do use extreme depending on the hit. Can I get one simple example (be glad to give you my phone number or call you) that I can see and go "OH! that makes sense!"

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Rick Shellhouse

Not trying to speak for Stan but you might want to contact him from one of his contact no. on his web site. After all the things that keep getting posted I would not be surprised if he just didn't respond from just not reading this thread. And as far as the amount..if I could pay 45.00 to improve my game by one ball...it would be worth it.
 
Not trying to speak for Stan but you might want to contact him from one of his contact no. on his web site. After all the things that keep getting posted I would not be surprised if he just didn't respond from just not reading this thread. And as far as the amount..if I could pay 45.00 to improve my game by one ball...it would be worth it.

So would I as I have and continue to take lessons all the time. I saw his post here and thought I would simply respond here. Positive PR is never bad...

R
 
Stan,

I am interested in your dvd simply because I am a voracious reader and love learning new things especially when it comes to pool. When will the paypal be available?
While I do admit I have some concerns purchasing a $45 dollar dvd (more than the price of a Capelle book) with what seems to be so much inaccurate information out there about "what" it is. Can I use English with this? Primarily vertical axis but I do use extreme depending on the hit. Can I get one simple example (be glad to give you my phone number or call you) that I can see and go "OH! that makes sense!"

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Rick Shellhouse

The inaccurate material did not come from Stan
Stan trains world class players. I would have paid 100$ for
information coming directly from Stan. He is one of, if not the top US instructor.

















Petey
 
Last edited:
The inaccurate material did not come from Stan
Stan trains world class players. I would have paid 100$ for
information coming directly from Stan. He is one of, if not the top US instructor.
Petey






Please do not assume that I was implying Stan was giving out inaccurate information.

That was not my intent. My intent was to simply to get in as my mama use to say "from the horses mouth"

R
 
Stan,

I am interested in your dvd simply because I am a voracious reader and love learning new things especially when it comes to pool. When will the paypal be available?
While I do admit I have some concerns purchasing a $45 dollar dvd (more than the price of a Capelle book) with what seems to be so much inaccurate information out there about "what" it is. Can I use English with this? Primarily vertical axis but I do use extreme depending on the hit. Can I get one simple example (be glad to give you my phone number or call you) that I can see and go "OH! that makes sense!"

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Rick Shellhouse

Hi Rick,

I am coordinating Paypal with bank and web master now. I am moving as quickly as possible. I apologize for the delay.

Rick, you may call tomorrow with any questions. My contact info is on www.justcueit.com.

Stan Shuffett
 
Man this nice thread sure got out of hand. I guess I will give a few opinions regarding this topic.

First, while I generally really disagree with get me there, I did not take his original post about his intentions regarding the DVD to mean that he was going to give away the actual secrets, but to instead say what was on the DVD as far as valueable lessons or not, and what one can expect to get out of it. To say that he will say exactly what is on the DVD can easily be taken as describing the content in an outline type format that tells you what will be convered.

Second, I don't see how anyone can cover this material in written word in a way that the DVD would describe with visual aids. If I read about this system in detail and found it to be intuiging, I certainly would not find $45 to be too much to order it and learn it first hand. As a matter of fact, I think that would make me consider doing it more to learn it thoroughly instead of just the info I read on here. So that type of discussion will likely increase sales, especially if people continue to report positive results.

In the end, if we have info that someone else has worked hard on, and we can fully divulge it in a way that will allow others to fully understand it, I don't think that would be a good idea, and I would have moral issue with that. I have never explained the mother drills to people, even though Scott Lee says he does not have an issue with that. Partly because I don't think it would be right, and because people would not understand it in a basic explanation. The same will hold true here. Most will realize that a professionally done video with 90 minutes of explanation can't be replaced by a few written words, and will purchase the video if they see value in it. Those that will not buy the video, and wil instead try to learn it by what they read, likely would not have bought it anyways. I am sure this will turn out well for Stan if the video ends uo being what we are hopeing.

One other thing to think about. There are thousands of drilsl and systems available on-line, yet people still buy books and videos on mechanics, fundamentals, CB control etc. People like a concise, well planned body of info from someone they feel they can trust to put out good info. Anyone that is really serious about trying CTE will throw out $45 to learn it from Stan.
 
Johns' account of that is not true.

You see this is exactly what I am talking about when I say it's a matter of PERSPECTIVE.

Instead of saying, "I don't see it that way" or "that's not how I thought it went" you go straight to 'John is a liar.'

I spent some thought on the way to see you as to how I would present CTE to you knowing that you were going to be hard to deal with on the subject.

I tried to show you what I do in hopes that you would at least try it. When you kept grilling me with questions I had no good millimeter precise answer for and I could see that you were not going to at least try to duplicate my steps that's when it was suggested we just play and stop trying to discuss it.

I freely admit that I came around to your point of view because as a CTE user I was inadequate to teach YOU how to do CTE because I could not answer your questions and that created a wall that you would not go over.

In contrast the 22 year old Chinese girl had no prejudice. She just tried to do what I did and immediately "got it". She could not explain to you why it works either to the point where you would at least try it.

My thoughts on our encounter are that you can play, you can make shots but you have little quirks in your set up that are not "textbook" either. I came away with the feeling that you are very set in your mind on the subject of CTE and feel that it could never help you to be any better than you are now.

So it's an agree to disagree moment. You think it's all subconscious adjustment and I don't.

The difference between us?

I can demonstrate how to aim by feel, by contact point, back-of-the-ball, ghost ball AND using CTE. You can't show anyone how to use CTE but yet you want to tell us all that you understand exactly how it works?

I can use a sewing machine, I can't repair one. I know the basics of how a sewing machine works I don't need to know more than that to create fabulous things with the machine.

If someone came to me with a sewing machine that they said would work with mind control then I would try it. If it worked then great if not then I'd not waste another second on it. I wouldn't need to grill the person who was demonstrating it on HOW it could work.

You wouldn't even try it. But you WOULD waste countless hours telling other people why you think it couldn't work just because the person demonstrating it would not tell you HOW it works. That's how I see your involvement in these threads.

I know you remember our conversation on the way back to the motel. You are calling me a liar because I have a different perspective on our meeting. Think about that conversation and what you said.
 
FYI, I just read this post in the CTE thread that was banished to the NPR forum. I wanted to post it in this (and any) thread dealing with CTE, because I honestly think it is the best single post I have ever seen in any CTE thread over the many years of "debate." It is very well stated, summarizes most of the important questions about CTE, and doesn't insult or attack anyone personally. I just added it to the top of the quotes section of my CTE resource page, where it belongs.

from Patrick Johnson:
First, what I think it is: I think CTE is a "reference" aiming system (very similar in concept to, and in fact an outgrowth of, Hal Houle's old "3-angle" system), that divides all the possible shots into two categories (thinner or fuller than half ball), leaving the final aim adjustment up to you to learn "by feel". I think it adds some suggested "systematic" adjustments, but nobody can seem to describe those, which makes me think they're probably mostly learned by feel too.

How it works/what it offers: I think CTE offers its users the following things:

1. A specific and easy-to-see starting place (the half-ball alignment) that's in the middle of all the possible alignments. Each shot can be "measured" in relation to the half-ball alignment, giving some structure to an otherwise wide-open (and maybe daunting) narrowing-down process. (This is also the way the old 3-angle system worked, but with three reference angles rather than just one.)

2. A specific and easy-to-see starting alignment of the stick, CB and OB (again, the half-ball alignment) that brings your focused attention to how those three things are aligned, something very helpful in learning to aim (and in executing aim once you've learned it) but often overlooked.

3. Because of its structured approach to aiming, a confidence boost that helps your mind make focused "recordings" of successful shot alignments which can be more readily recalled for future similar shots ("learning by feel").

These might not be all the benefits (see Dr. Dave's website for a list that may go beyond these). I don't believe any of these benefits are only available from CTE, but CTE may be the best way to get them for some players.

The controversy surrounding CTE is about whether or not it's an "exact" system that doesn't rely on the player's ability to finish the aiming process "by feel". Since nobody can seem to describe the whole process (actually, nobody can seem to clearly describe any of it past the initial half-ball alignment), it seems obvious to some (including me) that it therefore can't really be an "exact" system and must include some (maybe a lot of) feel. For some reason, CTE users can't stand this idea and argue vehemently against it (this may be part of the confidence thing), but their arguments always boil down to the same thing: it works for them.

I take CTE users' word for the fact that "it works for them" and only take issue with the claim that it doesn't involve any "feel", but the arguments usually become unfocused very quickly and devolve to "it works" vs. "it can't work", giving us all lots of opportunities for playing the dozens (trading clever insults), but shedding no light whatsoever.​

And every time you post this I hope someone points out what a jerk you are being.

Question 1:

Do you, Dr. Dave Alciatore, PHD, have a complete version of CTE that was given to you personally by any teacher of CTE and related aiming systems? You personally, not something you read somewhere.

Question 2: If you have one then will you publish the exact instructions of that version?

I'd like to see these two questions and their answers at the top of any page, thread, or any other form of communication where YOU and CTE are connected.

-

But if you want a DESCRIPTION of CTE then here it is.


CTE - Center to Edge Aiming is a method by which the shooter can align themselves to the aiming line using the center of the cueball and the edge of the object ball. By use of this technique the shooter is able to approach almost any shot the same way with the same initial alignment. For exact instructions on how to use this method it is best to go to qualified instructor who is well versed in it.

Many students of the system over the years have testified that learning and using the CTE method has greatly improved their shotmaking. Many recognized and certified instructors now teach the CTE method and slight variants.

-----------------------------------------

Bet that doesn't make it on your page.
 
Me:
Johns' account of that is not true.
John:
Instead of saying, "I don't see it that way" or "that's not how I thought it went" you go straight to 'John is a liar.'
"John's account is not true" does not necessarily = "John is a liar" - but I can understand why you jump to that interpretation. I think you know you put an exaggerated negative spin on your account of our conversation because I've been critical of your recent posts. One of the main reasons I've been critical is that your posting credibility seems to vary with your emotions - and this topic summons them.

pj
chgo
 
I haven't been offered lessons by several people who teach it.

Yes you have by Hal and Dave Segal.
I don't refuse to learn it.

Not accepting offers to be taught equates to a refusal to learn.

I don't tell anybody it can't work.

You say it can't work as those who use it say it does. You boil it all down to "feel" despite claims to the contrary. If you had learned it then you could point out just where all the "feel" is. But you haven't learned CTE and as such you are not qualified to tell anyone what it is or is not.
 
"John's account is not true" does not necessarily = "John is a liar" - but I can understand why you jump to that interpretation. I think you know you put an exaggerated negative spin on your account of our conversation because I've been critical of your recent posts. One of the main reasons I've been critical is that your posting credibility seems to vary with your emotions - and this topic summons them.

pj
chgo

John said X and X is not true - first impression John is lying.

Much different than saying you don't see a situation form the same perspective as John.

I have not put an exaggerated negative spin on anything. I went there with the intention of showing you what I do and hoping you would try it at least. You did have the same position offline as online which is that you acknowledge that it works for me but that no one to date has given you any instructions that can be used to make it work for someone else. At one point I asked you to try it and you refused.

I enjoyed our time together and was diplomatic in my account with no intention of talking about it much further. You brought it up in terms of my actual play when I was just needling Lou.

I agree however with your basic issue with CTE.

To date no one has printed any written instructions where a person can go to the table and "get" CTE in minutes. However there has been been plenty of written instruction that people can use to play around with it and some people are able to get it using those starting points.

And others have been able to get it when being shown in person.

None of those people needed to know WHY it works or HOW it works. They just were happy that it works.

You on the other hand are super anal about HOW it works. So you have some sort of a mental block against even trying it. Personally I love it if you were taught CTE and you were able to use it and THEN you came back and told us what you think about HOW it works.

Because given your OCD about how things work I am sure that some insight would be gained from that.

Do you truly deny that Dave Segal and Hal Houle both offered to teach you CTE (or variants)?

I will send you a copy of Stan's DVD for Christmas. Instead of sending it to YOU though I will send it to Chris's billiards and let them try it out first. Then you can get it and watch it. At that point you can say that you received some exact instruction on how to use CTE.
 
In a past life, I had the opportunity to travel around the country and teach CEO-level peoples about crisis media relations. I know we're not in any crisis, but I think at least one central point from that experience applies here. In those classes I taught that Rule #1 -- no matter how bad the news -- was that you absolutely had to get out and tell your side of the story, or someone else would do it for you. And that's what's happen here. No one on the CTE side, for whatever reason, has stepped up to the plate. And now what you have is one of your most severe critics portraying your position for you :-)

So don't whine about it, you've had (and still have) plenty of chances.

Lou Figueroa
I know
I know
the DVD is coming
(whoopee)

Stop begging for the info.
 
Me:
I haven't been offered lessons by several people who teach it.
John:
Yes you have by Hal and Dave Segal.
Hal hasn't offered to teach me CTE. Spidey lives in Pennsylvania.

John:
Not accepting offers to be taught equates to a refusal to learn.
I'll accept any offer that's free, convenient to me and made by a teacher I think is worth my time. Frankly, I don't need CTE or your stamp of approval on my CTE "credentials", so I'm not going far out of my way for it. But I'm not refusing it.

Me:
I don't tell anybody it can't work.
John:
You say it can't work as those who use it say it does.
Those aren't the same thing. You're spinning like a top.

John:
...you haven't learned CTE and as such you are not qualified to tell anyone what it is or is not.
Apparently only the "unqualified" are ever willing to try. Strange, isn't it?

pj
chgo
 
John:
I asked you to try it and you refused.
That's untrue. You couldn't explain what you do clearly, even in person at a pool table. There was nothing that could be "tried" by anybody but you. I know you won't agree with this - that's because you simply don't understand it.

In fact, the apparent inability of any CTE user to explain himself, confirmed by your inability to do so in person, is the most revealing thing about how CTE really works. (Here comes the Code of Silence excuse.)

pj
chgo
 
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