Jeff Black

[Dartman]

... Seriously not to put anyone down but one of the highest viewed sections of this site is pictures of hackwork? This does nothing for us. We know bad work when we see it ...

In actuality the hackwork pictures are important in educating forum members that are not part of the trade. Pictures that are shown are prime examples of work performed by incompetent people. In addition to the hackwork thread you will also find threads started that show pics of excellent work. When shown the bad (i.e. stapling cushions :angry and the good it's a way to encourage forum members to demand quality work - and a good concept to build into your website as most consumers haven't a clue of what quality work entails. No charge for that tip.

Finally I am not familiar with the use of this forum and this may have been a conversation to start in the ABIA section so if anyone would be so kind as to somehow route this into the ABIA section you have created that would probably give a lot more people the answers to the questions they are looking for.

There's no ABIA section. The threads about ABIA were started in this area of the forum (Talk to a Mechanic) since this is the appropriate place to discuss pool table work as well as your organization which deals with table mechanics.

 

[Jeff Black]

OK thanks, Well put.

 

[realkingcobra]

OK thanks, Well put.

I started posting pictures of my work a long time ago, and encouraged other table mechanic's to do the same thing as a way of showing to all others the difference between what's right...and what's wrong. But not as a way of running down someone else's work...only the differences. If the public can't see what's better when it comes to this kind of work...then they'll never have any idea as to if they're getting what they paid for, but because of all these threads...I can tell you for sure....a lot of the public has insisted on hiring someone that knows what they're doing. I don't agree though with just posting pictures of hack work....without posting pictures of what the poster did to CORRECT that work posted, if not...then that is just downing someone else's work, and shows nothing of the skills of the person making the posts. The before and after has to go together....or there's nothing accomplished....because as we all know...yes, there's bad work being done....but where's all the good work?

Glen

 

[QuickEdward]

1. Question regarding due diligence and the fact that not a sigle mechanic on this forum knew about the ABIA when it was created. What would you suggest be required in order for someone to start a trade organization? I was not aware of this forum before the ABIA started and I am still unfamiliar with the people involved here, I'm getting to know some of them but this question is worded in such a manner than there needed to be permission from this group to create this organization so I do not know what you are looking for with this statement.

The fact that you say you did not know about this forum is proof that you did absolutely no due diligence. One quick google search of "Pool Table Mechanics" brings up the AZ forum as the first result. I'm having a hard time imagining starting an organization for tradesman in a specific industry without seeking out some of the best and brightest in that industry from day one.

2 On deceptive commmunication and the fact that I am involved in the billiard industry. Yes it is true that I am involved in the billiard industry and this involves giving work to installers / mechanics across the country and promoting their businesses. I have been involved with obtaining customers for mechanics for almost a decade and many of them rely on my services for their businesses, this part is true. I will not comment on other businesses other than they are designed to offer work and profits to mechanics, this has been my daily objective for around 10 years and believe it or not I assume there are even small billiard businesses who appreciate my efforts for their businesses, they may not want to make themselves known publicly because of the controversy but they are here watching and waiting.

Jeff - are you really under the impression that my concern is that you work within the industry? Why would I want someone to head this organization that wasn't in the business? My concern is about how your business(es) relate and work with the ABIA. It's called conflict of interest.

IC Billiard Cloth....not at all. Many are confused about this. IC Billiard Cloth was a name created for the cloth, it's a line of cloth not a company and it is in no way affilated with the ABIA or me personally or professionally besides giving discounts to members. It may appear this way as the program continues to evolve and the distributor has requested that for the time being the ABIA place orders on behalf of it's members so they can distinguish between members and non members easily as they have their own customers as well. I can understand the speculation but I have to get that out there. The billiard cloth program as been misunderstood since it started. All positive efforts for members have been trashed by mechanics and distributors alike.

If the "program" has been "misunderstood", who's responsibility is that? This "cloth program" is a good example of why you're getting the negativity you've been getting. How many mechanics did you consult when creating this "program"? If you'd have asked many, we'd have told you we want Championship, Mali, Simonis, etc. We don't want nameless cloth from nameless suppliers.

Yes there are now manufacturers who are requesting that the installations of their products be installed by certified companies of the ABIA. This does not hurt members or you and yes I deal with larger distributors and manufacturers because of my reputation of excellent work and dedication to my clients and mechanics and my ability to get things done that others see as impossible. I do not need to throw names around or boast, there is plenty of that here already.

Yes Jeff, you DO NEED TO THROW NAMES AROUND. If you want mechanics to trust you and the organization, you can't operate in a vacuum and expect us to just trust you and take your word for everything.

3. Lack of momentum of certification.
I have to admit you are right. One person trying to accomplish this goal nationwide for an entire industry is extremely difficult and I am surprised at the progress that the ABIA has made so far.

If ONE PERSON IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH THIS GOAL, THEN WHAT YOU HAVE ISN'T A TRADE ORGANIZATION.

In addition the ABIA was sidetracked for over 6 months by associating with someone with the BCA. This along with other contacts with distributors ultimately lead to the lack of transparency that has been an effort to protect the momentum of memberships to ensure survival of the organization. The majority of ABIA members were insistent on remaining an independent group not affiliated with the BCA. Certification will continue regardless, the panel who has volunteered can re-classify, re-structure or whatever else needs to be done to make it successful. Flexibility, trial and error is key.

So why not disseminate the information? Tell us what the BCA did. Tell us what their problem with the ABIA was. Quit blaming your secrecy on the BCA and distributors. TELL US what's happened. The mechanics on this forum have literally hundreds of years worth of relationships with these very organizations and I would bet that many of them could have assisted you.

4. On lack of integrity. Nothing that as been put out has been false. Just because you are not familair with the situation does not mean it's not happening or has not happened. There are those out there that definitely do not want to see mechanics organize for whatever reason and I know first hand there are distributors who absolutely do not want us to rally for discounts, these people IMO create the most objection to the ABIA and it's mission and pose the most problematic obstacles for the ABIA. I have outrageous emails from representatives of distributors but will not post them in public forums as I do not believe a man with integrity and respect publicly critiques the values of individuals.

I see you talk about distributors and discounts more than anything else. Wanna know something? I don't care about discounts. Most legitimate mechanics have established relationships with wholesalers.

And this whole "I've got information that backs up what I tell you, but I'm not going to let you see it" tactic is getting old.

It has also been stated that in over 200 years there has never been a successful organization of mechanics. An outsider could look at this forum and give you an answer to this in a second, take a look around these posts, they are riddled with negativity and fighting amongst each other. For this organization to succeed it needs people who are not afraid to protect their interests, people who are willing to open their minds and people who have vision of the future and truly have the mechanic and installer in mind, not just themselves. Seriously not to put anyone down but one of the highest viewed sections of this site is pictures of hackwork? This does nothing for us. We know bad work when we see it but this is where we focus our efforts and time? This forum is extremely important if used correctly and positively I think.

Are you serious? If I were in charge of the ABIA I'd start a special webpage to show EVERYONE those pics. Those pics are why we NEED an organization.

You reference profiteering. That's fine. I have put over a year and a half into creating and managing this organization for mechanics and have had several obstacles to deal with and successes that have been achieved as well and this has been at my expense not my gain. I do not know you but if you are a mechanic I am sure you don't get in your vehicle every morning knowing you aren't going to collect your fee. In fact I have spent over 45 minutes personally addressing your concerns and for this I will certainly not be compensated, chances are it will only end up in more blows to the organization and personal integrity but let me say that people are are getting tired of that. On the other hand the continuous flow of positive thanks, appreciation and support that I recieve from members of the ABIA outweigh the few negative things posted here recently about me.

You've hit the nail on the head here Jeff, you're all about the Benjamins. Start giving some straight answers and I'll pay you for the time spent typing.

When the ABIA was started I knew it was going to be a long difficult road but all things take time and must be carefully cultivated in order to achieve the goals that mechanics want in the industry.

Would have been easier if you actually asked mechanics what they wanted out of an organization. But instead, from day one it's been YOU creating YOUR vision. While I don't speak for all mechanics, I would venture to say that OUR vision doesn't include alienating the BCA, and creating adversarial relationships with distributors and manufacturers.

 

[Dartman]

Don't think we need to move any closer to a pissing contest.
What's taken place to date is what it is. It's history. Several of our respected forum members are involved in trying to
help fix what's broken going forward so let's support their efforts and give this thing a chance to be successful.

 

[Jeff Black]

With tremendous respect to the participants in the AZ Billiards Forums and mechanics who have been reading our conversations here I do appreciate everyone's time and in closing I am a little confused as to the number of posts before I was invited to talk and answer questions addressed to me regarding the ABIA in comparison to the number of people participating now after I have taken the time to do this. I remember someone saying that the organization and the people behind it were "hiding" but where are you now?

With respect I ask: Due diligence, search billiard installers and research the AZ billiards forum? Please, this is not a homework assignment, this is not a game. This is a serious undertaking that does not need to be discussed with every mechanic in the country or even any group that is going to tear the foundation apart with their I want, me me me, you do things my way or I am going to slander your name publicly and discredit the organization because it wasn't done the way I want it done.

Dartman I think that maybe you have come closest to being open minded about what has been created for us. The ABIA has grown to strong membership numbers and recognition from manufacturers and enjoys much more support from outside this forum in comparison to the number of people here who participate. That being said the reason we are all here talking about something is because it is well worth being spoken of, the reasons why it has succeeded to the point of success that no other group, person or entity has has ever accomplished is due to the building momentum and the ability to keep things from certain people with intentions to do harm to the organization until it's strength was great enough to withstand the few who do not want to see it survive.

Some of you guys may be doing great in your businesses but let me tell you that there are mechanics out there who are suffering. Many of them are my customers and I wish to see them succeed. Some are suffering due to lack of business in certain areas of the country and some are suffering because their expenses are so high they need to keep working 7 days a week and don't get to see their families, either way I am going to do whatever is possible to assist in easing some of the suffering because these people and this industry has supported me for many years and I can and I choose to give back.

Now that being said I know this group here has struggled to build the same sort of organization for more than a year and I ask you to look at your progress, look at what you have achieved. I am willing to forgive those who slander me, dig up dirt and attempt to downplay the importance of what has been presented to you as a strong trade organization in it's infancy. I am used to this nature of behavior in the industry but I ask you out of respect that if you disagree with this organization then it is up to you to go put YOUR plan together, execute it and build your organization in the manner that you think it will be successful and leave this one alone. We already have proof of how well that has gone for the group so far right? In other words I ask everyone to lead, follow or get out of the way because talk is cheap, actions and achievements will always speak louder than words and these forums are entirely made up of words.

Retail stores, installers and mechanics alike are encouraged to continue the growth of the ABIA by applying at the ABIA website.

Thank you again for your time and input, it will be taken into consideration. The industry is changing and it starts with the ABIA.

 

[realkingcobra]

I'd be willing to support the ABIA if....

(A) It was a for profit organization.

(B) There was different categories for members vs mechanics.

(C) There was a review panel of certified top table mechanics that "can do everything" to review pictures of work submitted to determine placement categories of members asking for the minimum of "Installer status"

(D)

I'll have to continue on with this in a little while as I have to finish rebuilding some GC3 rails...but I think you get my drift as to where I'm going with this

 

[The Turk]

Jeff, I have a few questions, but first I want to let you know upfront that I've been one of the biggest doubters and critics of the ABIA on this forum. Just so you don't have to search and read through multiple threads and posts, I'll list the problems I've had with your organization.

1. Lack of any indication that there was a process of due diligence put into the formation and mission of the ABIA. Last September emails started flying from the ABIA to mechanics. Despite the fact that at that point in time not a single mechanic from this forum knew about the ABIA, every effort was made in those emails to portray the ABIA as a new, but established organization with an active membership.

2. Deceptive communication. From the beginning, the ABIA website and ABIA emails have been deceptive. A "news" item on your website describes how the "volunteer staff" have "received notification" from the "only national billiard installation company" regarding using ABIA certified companies. Isn't it true that the "volunteer staff" is you? Isn't it also true that the "national billiard installation company" is Install Gurus, another business entity owned by you? Isn't it also true that you are behind IC Billiard Cloth? How are we to believe that the ABIA's mission is to assist mechanics when it seems that every move seems to serve Jeff Black's wallet?

3. Lack of any forward momentum in actually conceiving a certification process, let alone implementing one. Fourteen months isn't long enough to implement some semblance of a certification process? The current "company certification" isn't even as stringent as Angie's List and is completely useless. As others have pointed out, any crackhead can get a business license and anyone with a mediocre credit score and a couple hundred bucks can get insurance.

4. Lack of integrity and misleading statements. The email sent to Mr. Bond was riddled with insults and contempt. I find it hard to believe that anyone in a service based industry would actually write that. I find it even harder to believe that the person who wrote that is actually asking for support in a leadership role within a service based industry. Mr. Bond deserves a sincere apology.

And the complete absurdity of your statements that "powerful industry heads" and distributors want to "gain control" of the ABIA cannot be overlooked. Do you really expect us to believe that? Industry and trade organizations are built on goodwill, and yet you seem to have no shortage of bad things to say about groups like MBS and even the BCA? What organization has done more to promote the sport that allows us to feed our families than the BCA? And really.... MBS wanted to gain control of the ABIA?

Since the ABIA started I've seen secrecy, deception, profiteering, contempt for other organizations within the industry, insulting emails to people who just want answers, and undelivered promises. What does the ABIA have to offer me if I'm forced to question the motivation of every move that's made?

I think you need to slow up a bit. Members of this forum were involved from the beginning. Me and Pat O' have talked to Jeff prior to Alsip about organizing mechanics. Rome was not built in a day. I have the same everyday concerns as any of the mechanics on this forum.
I love the part you wrote about "contempt for other organizations". Have you read your own post? " If there is one thing I can't stand it's people who are intolerant of other peoples cultures and the Dutch" HA hA!!! Did you see Auston Powers? Any way I understand the concern. I have The same concerns. I've talked with Jeff many times. I've asked questions of my own. Jeff has always been open minded and will discuss anything of importance. My business has improved as well as my advertisement and communication with my customer base. You have nothing to gain by your negative questions. and nothing can be lost by listening to Jeff. What's the harm in that. You wrote about building on good will. Where is your good will. Mr. Bond displayed his own contempt in his contact with the ABIA. Pat O' , Jay and myself had a group conversation with Jeff last year in Dec. We left the conversation in disagreement. No one was unprofessional. No one jumped on this forum and bashed anyone else! We continued the conversation to date and are now getting somewhere. You think the BCA has done so much for us? Show us the literature that supports mechanics. Send a link to the mechanics page on the BCA website. What exactly have they done for us? Don't come back at me with there long years in the billiard industry and infer some type of peripheral help that has magically put food on my plate. I want to see an exact path taken by the BCA, it's sole purpose to help mechanics I Am not inferring the BCA is against or for us, only indifferent. I have been a player most of my life and a mechanic 12 years and have yet to see major impact made by the BCA in support of mechanics. Having said that Why all the support from you? What exactly is your point. You don't trust Jeff Black. Got it.

 

[The Turk]

What are we going to do to separate the hacks from the mechanics. What are we going to do to promote ourselves. What can the ABIA do for mechanics? WHAT CAN JEFF BLACK DO FOR MECHANICS? I am hoping Jeff will take some time to respond.

 

[Dartman]

...
Now that being said I know this group here has struggled to build the same sort of organization for more than a year and I ask you to look at your progress ...

Jeff I'm not quite following and not aware of any organizing effort of mechanics thru this forum. I recall there was some very brief discussion way in the past (and before Alsip) that amounted to a few thinking it would be a good idea but nothing came of it. May be wrong but I'm thinking it was OTLB that suggested BMA or something like that. The only organizing effort we're all aware of is ABIA, IMO.

To that end many of the forum tribe (experienced mechanics) are on the warpath due to the loose use of the term "certified". This is the key point that I think many of us feel needs to be fixed and hopefully the guys involved with addressing this issue will get it done.

 

[Mr. Bond]

There are so many things I could say...but I think I will just offer my two cents and then humbly leave the remainder of this discussion up to the fine gentlemen here that are actively engaged in the business.

To whom it may concern;

IMO The overall success and reputation of an organization that is based upon establishing industry-wide quality standards, will depend primarily on its integrity, and the fruits of it's labor.

In other words:
Can you be trusted?
How high are your standards?
What do you accomplish in the long run?

Why are these 3 questions so important? Because of who asks them: The consumer.
Contrary to what you may have read elsewhere, the player (or consumer) is the "life-blood" of this industry, not the mechanic, not the store and not the factory. It is the player's satisfaction that comes first. And ultimately, that is who the entire industry has to answer to. To think that you work "independently" without relying on anyone else for your success is a complete myth, which is exactly why one's integrity means so much.

Integrity is not something one can fake, or fabricate, or buy in a store. People have it or they don't, which in some cases, will make a difference as to whom you will want to associate with or allow to be members, leaders, and even spokespersons. "One bad apple can spoil the bunch" as far as the public is concerned. So, when chosing, or 'allowing' various people to come on board with you, and subsequently REPRESENT your entire industry and/or organization to the public, I recommend utilizing the utmost care and discretion.

Most importantly, "the standards" you establish for yourself and for an entire nation of mechanics can and will have a far reaching impact on many levels - from the rates being charged for work, to potentially even changing the way tables or equipment are made - and should be researched carefully with the current and future market in mind. For these same reasons it is also important to consult with as many industry representatives as possible ( ie other mechanics and table makers etc ) to accurately ascertain the overall effects of your standards on people other than yourself.

Best of luck Gentlemen.

And remember:
Never accept bullsh!t answers.
The player comes first.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Mr. Bond displayed his own contempt in his contact with the ABIA

I have no contempt and you have no right to falsely presume my state of mind. My snarky response was based on the fact that I was being insulted and lied to for simply asking the man's name. Twice.

 

[Jeff Black]

In response to Turk: Thanks for asking a very obvious and productive question.

Since the initiation of the ABIA my objective has been to remain persistent in achieving the two goals that are most important for the small billiard business which are to save members money on products and materials or services and to create standards for mechanics and billiard table installations while increasing the credibility and profits of the certified member.

During this last year when there have been important questions and decisions that need to be addressed the entire ABIA membership was asked their opinions, those who chose not to participate in these requests for information were not considered in the outcomes.

The next steps with the organization will be completely described in an announcement at the beginning of the week and the start of these steps for the ABIA will address the problems of certification. I agree there needs to be a proper way to identify non certified members from certified members and this wil be addressed by a panel that has been selected to address the concerns of the organization, this will not be difficult to implement and adapt to the current process.

This panel will be the ones responsible for answering the tough questions regarding the direction of the organization and how and when the not for profit organization will be formed. Now that the conversation is becoming constructive the ideas that are flowing are very useful and important and are going to be considered "very deeply".

A special group of respected mechanics has been formed and will be announced next week what their objectives are. The members of this group have been selected to create and plan for the very important certifications and at their descretion will determine levels of certification as well. Upon gaining their permission over the next couple of days to name them they will be announced to members.


This group will be the part of the ABIA that begins the much anticipated "technical certification standards" and also will be asked to develop a more advanced level of mechanics cerfification standards and program. I do not want to get ahead too quickly here, it's the busy season and many of us are very occupied with keeping our customers happy so we will take a step by step method of first developing the basic technical standards to accompany the insurance and licensing which is becoming very important for other businesses in the industry and then implementing this technical certification nation wide. There will be competent people administering the technical aspects of the certification for ALL members becoming certified.

This is as much as we can go into here and members will be informed of these large changes, who is involved and what is on the agenda at the beginning of next week. Bob thanks for giving me an opportunity to let everyone know my intentions as I have indicated it is time for the association to take the next step.

 

[realkingcobra]

In response to Turk: Thanks for asking a very obvious and productive question.

Since the initiation of the ABIA my objective has been to remain persistent in achieving the two goals that are most important for the small billiard business which are to save members money on products and materials or services and to create standards for mechanics and billiard table installations while increasing the credibility and profits of the certified member.

During this last year when there have been important questions and decisions that need to be addressed the entire ABIA membership was asked their opinions, those who chose not to participate in these requests for information were not considered in the outcomes.

The next steps with the organization will be completely described in an announcement at the beginning of the week and the start of these steps for the ABIA will address the problems of certification. I agree there needs to be a proper way to identify non certified members from certified members and this wil be addressed by a panel that has been selected to address the concerns of the organization, this will not be difficult to implement and adapt to the current process.

This panel will be the ones responsible for answering the tough questions regarding the direction of the organization and how and when the not for profit organization will be formed. Now that the conversation is becoming constructive the ideas that are flowing are very useful and important and are going to be considered "very deeply".

A special group of respected mechanics has been formed and will be announced next week what their objectives are. The members of this group have been selected to create and plan for the very important certifications and at their descretion will determine levels of certification as well. Upon gaining their permission over the next couple of days to name them they will be announced to members.


This group will be the part of the ABIA that begins the much anticipated "technical certification standards" and also will be asked to develop a more advanced level of mechanics cerfification standards and program. I do not want to get ahead too quickly here, it's the busy season and many of us are very occupied with keeping our customers happy so we will take a step by step method of first developing the basic technical standards to accompany the insurance and licensing which is becoming very important for other businesses in the industry and then implementing this technical certification nation wide. There will be competent people administering the technical aspects of the certification for ALL members becoming certified.

This is as much as we can go into here and members will be informed of these large changes, who is involved and what is on the agenda at the beginning of next week. Bob thanks for giving me an opportunity to let everyone know my intentions as I have indicated it is time for the association to take the next step.

Jeff...count the amount of times you used the word "certified" in one way or another please My problem is that you're using that word to describe a member...as well as a skill level. Now, I've asked you to please change the "certified member" to "registered member" and reserve the "certified" to represent a certain skill level....do you think it's possible to separate the this word from meaning two different things? Because when you keep talking about a "certified member"...I have no idea as to what you're refering to....are you saying this person is "Certified" to do the job....or "certified" to be a member....because BOTH come with requirements...so, WHICH one are you talking about?????

Glen

 

[Jeff Black]

Thanks. I'm sure it has become confusing and please note this statement.

I agree there needs to be a proper way to identify non certified members from certified members and this wil be addressed by a panel

In other words it will be decided how to distinguish a "MEMBER" from a member who is "CERTIFIED" by credentials and technical ability.

Once it is decided how to label the current "COMPANY CERTIFICATION" to one that is not so confusing in the eyes of the consumer and that does not mislead the consumer into thinking that:

Just because one particular company or mechanic has met the following criteria:

A company has several years experience
Residential quality of work references checked
Proper business liability insurance verified
Business quality of work references checked
Professional trade references verified and checked
And
Business licensing verified
And
Is a member of the ABIA

That they are not really qualified to properly service or move a billiard table. This is the general opinion that we are getting from mechanics so far. The panel will just classify this current "company certification" something more fitting and drop the word certified all together so that we are not giving the consumer the wrong impression.

I hope this helps, in other words the only mechanics that will be called certified will have met technical and business requirements set by the members involved in determining these standards.

 

[QuickEdward]

The ABIA will have my full support when:

1. It's restructured as a non-profit.

2. When power over the organization and it's efforts rests in the hands of a group of qualified and respected mechanics.

3. When it ceases to be a tool for one or two individuals to reap profits by steering jobs or material sales to other commercial entities.

As for forgiveness, I need none. I make no apologies for being diligent in who I trust and who I let represent me and my profession.

Mr. Turk - Please tell me why I'm wrong to not trust Jeff Black? Do you trust everyone who contacts you? Do you send weekly wire transfers to the Nigerian government officials peddling you pipe dreams? When I first received contact from the ABIA I wanted it to be something worthwhile run by people I could trust. But there wasn't even a "contact us" link on the website! No mention of who was behind it. But the links for me to send money were certainly present! Tell me why I should trust that???????

 

[The Turk]

The ABIA will have my full support when:

1. It's restructured as a non-profit.

2. When power over the organization and it's efforts rests in the hands of a group of qualified and respected mechanics.

3. When it ceases to be a tool for one or two individuals to reap profits by steering jobs or material sales to other commercial entities.

As for forgiveness, I need none. I make no apologies for being diligent in who I trust and who I let represent me and my profession.

Mr. Turk - Please tell me why I'm wrong to not trust Jeff Black? Do you trust everyone who contacts you? Do you send weekly wire transfers to the Nigerian government officials peddling you pipe dreams? When I first received contact from the ABIA I wanted it to be something worthwhile run by people I could trust. But there wasn't even a "contact us" link on the website! No mention of who was behind it. But the links for me to send money were certainly present! Tell me why I should trust that???????

Your right! It isn't always possible to see someone else's point of view or for that matter know their state of mind [Mr. Bond]. My intentions were to challenge everyone to post more positive ideas on how to organize the mechanics. It is in my nature to become aggressive. I do not want to perpetuate anymore arguments. There is an abundance of talent on this forum. You and Mr. Bond are obviously very talented in finding information and I can appreciate your motivations.

Jeff Black has contacted me and some other quality people to change the organization. I believe in this group and I also believe that Jeff's intentions are good. I have not always seen eye to eye with the ABIA. I hope that everyone on the forum can take a breath and try to find a way to make this work. We can only proceed if we can find some common ground. You don't trust Jeff and I get It. I don't want to be part of any organization who simply requires trust from it's membership. Trust is a weapon if you give it to a liar. I am not calling anyone a liar or saying I don't trust anyone. I feel a good organization will have oversight and integrity, with the ability to to know whos hand is in the cookie jar at all times.

 

[OTLB]

Your right! It isn't always possible to see someone else's point of view or for that matter know their state of mind [Mr. Bond]. My intentions were to challenge everyone to post more positive ideas on how to organize the mechanics. It is in my nature to become aggressive. I do not want to perpetuate anymore arguments. There is an abundance of talent on this forum. You and Mr. Bond are obviously very talented in finding information and I can appreciate your motivations.

Jeff Black has contacted me and some other quality people to change the organization. I believe in this group and I also believe that Jeff's intentions are good. I have not always seen eye to eye with the ABIA. I hope that everyone on the forum can take a breath and try to find a way to make this work. We can only proceed if we can find some common ground. You don't trust Jeff and I get It. I don't want to be part of any organization who simply requires trust from it's membership. Trust is a weapon if you give it to a liar. I am not calling anyone a liar or saying I don't trust anyone. I feel a good organization will have oversight and integrity, with the ability to to know whos hand is in the cookie jar at all times.

think you and Pat are prime examples of mechanics. Out there day in and out shelping tables and doing a great job. You two were very professional when I saw you install the GC that day. I'm impressed when people show up on time and do what they say. If thats the kind of organization your building I would be more than happy to help.
And as a side note: think that in order for it to succeed it must consist of Team Players and a Captain. Not me for sure, but do know a guy that has the disposition for it.

suppose if I wanted to join everyone else would quit

 

[QuickEdward]

Your right! It isn't always possible to see someone else's point of view or for that matter know their state of mind [Mr. Bond]. My intentions were to challenge everyone to post more positive ideas on how to organize the mechanics. It is in my nature to become aggressive. I do not want to perpetuate anymore arguments. There is an abundance of talent on this forum. You and Mr. Bond are obviously very talented in finding information and I can appreciate your motivations.

Jeff Black has contacted me and some other quality people to change the organization. I believe in this group and I also believe that Jeff's intentions are good. I have not always seen eye to eye with the ABIA. I hope that everyone on the forum can take a breath and try to find a way to make this work. We can only proceed if we can find some common ground. You don't trust Jeff and I get It. I don't want to be part of any organization who simply requires trust from it's membership. Trust is a weapon if you give it to a liar. I am not calling anyone a liar or saying I don't trust anyone. I feel a good organization will have oversight and integrity, with the ability to to know whos hand is in the cookie jar at all times.

With that said, will you join me in asking that the organization be formally dissolved as an LLC and reformed as a 501(c)(6) non-profit?

Although I haven't been keen on the actions of Jeff and the ABIA to date, I do think that Jeff would make a great administrator. And I would love to see you and Pat and a few others on the certification board. While I'm not qualified to sit on any board in that capacity, I would certainly donate whatever time and talents I possess. I'm pretty handy with computers and websites. And of course I'm willing to shell out some cash for operating expenses until dues start coming in.

 

[Dartman]

... We can only proceed if we can find some common ground. ...

It appears the problems have been clearly defined. What's already gone down is history. The plan going forward is all that matters. There are plenty here that can help as a sounding board.