Are you kidding me, Are you guys that do this, that disrespect or just that desperate for work???????
Try and justify this, take your best shot.
Try and justify this, take your best shot.
Inlaying another makers cue upon customers request.
- Thread starter Michael Webb
- Start date
Hi Bill
Because it was once thought of as Taboo, but today it seems very popular. Also as a Cue maker who would never contemplate doing it but I know of at least 3 who have no hesitation in doing it. I want to know what other makers think not customers. This is ask the cue maker.
No, just figured it was a good subject for this section.
To the moderators, if this thread is inappropriate in your opinion, I completely understand and as always respect your decision.
In my opinion; once a cuemaker sells a cue it is no longer his cue. It belongs to the person who paid for it. This new owner has the right to do anything with that cue that pleases him. That includes refinishing the cue, rewrapping the cue, having a new shaft made for that cue, changing the ferrule, changing the tip, changing the weight of that cue or for that matter having new inlays installed into that cue. I have done all of the above and never considered that it could be offensive to the original maker.
I still think the owner of anything has the right to do anything with that item that he pleases, whether it be a custom cue, custom car or anything else.
If it bothers you that another cuemaker would add an inlay to a cue which was made by another maker then maybe you should no longer do any of the work mentioned in paragraph 1 above.
Mike
i don't think this is something to get puffed up about.their is a lot of cue repair going on out there now.the modern customer might get modifications done using different sources.to have intention to buy a cue just to go have a mod done is highly unlikely.it does not happen at my shop.
bill
i don't think this is something to get puffed up about.their is a lot of cue repair going on out there now.the modern customer might get modifications done using different sources.to have intention to buy a cue just to go have a mod done is highly unlikely.it does not happen at my shop.
bill
i'm rather new at this, but I agree with Arnot.. Its the owners right to do what he chooses to do with his cue, But at the same token I also believe that any changes to the original cue would void any warrantee or guarantees..Just my opinion..
Thank you, so your saying you personally have no reservations about altering the butt of another makers cue by adding inlays.
Thanks Bill
I'm not talking about repairs such as re-wraps and refinish, I'm talking about adding inlays and changing the original appearance of the cue.
Get the request all the time to add inlays or logo to one of Bill's old cues. Won't do it, and it is obvious as to why.
Inlays add value to a cue, if original, and detract from the value if added after the fact by another cue maker. There is also the issue of disclosure, who knows if after you sell the cue you had inlays added to if the next owner will make the next buyer aware of that fact?
It is also pretty cost prohibitive, and will usually alter the cue's original dimensions. You end up with a cue that is not original in several aspects, and that can only detract from the value.
Inlays add value to a cue, if original, and detract from the value if added after the fact by another cue maker. There is also the issue of disclosure, who knows if after you sell the cue you had inlays added to if the next owner will make the next buyer aware of that fact?
It is also pretty cost prohibitive, and will usually alter the cue's original dimensions. You end up with a cue that is not original in several aspects, and that can only detract from the value.
Hi Mario
People have tried for as long as I can remember when I did tourney's to get me to judge other makers work. I don't do it. To me there are more ethics involved. There's another part that goes with this sentence but that would really rattle some cages so I will refrain from using it. I am also one of the very few that is friends with the best this industry has to offer so I know my morals are correct.
Your a good man.
I am just a case maker but once I sell a case the customer can do anything he wants to it EXCEPT return it to me for any reason if he chooses to modify beyond the purely cosmetic.
I don't see the harm in modifying another person's work with the following criteria. The work should no longer carry the original maker's logo OR it should be accompanied by another logo/signature to inidcate someone else worked on it.
I see from a purely reputational standpoint that modifying someone else's cue can lead to that cue being represented as if it's the original maker's work. Bad if the quality sucks, bad if the original maker doesn't even do any similar work, bad because the original maker has to contend with people asking about it if it's not made perfectly clear.
But at the end of the day it's the customer's property and if another cue maker has the means then why shouldn't they take the business? I personally would not do it just out of liability reasons. One year I took a laser engraver to the big Vegas events and did a LOT of cues some of them very high end. I ruined a pair of cues that were north of $2000 for the set and wiped out a week's worth of profits. That cured me right there of putting anyone else's cues in the laser. I finished out the week and never worked on another person's cue again. The only lasering we do now is on our own cues.
Although I don't really see anything morally wrong here I can see that it's akin to modifying a painting or some other modification of a piece of art. I know that I would be somewhat hurt to see any major mods to my cases although I wouldn't be upset at the leather worker who did the work. Nor would I be upset at the customer. I'd just hate to see my baby disfigured in my eyes. Unless of course they did a really good job then I would steal the idea and use it myself.
Hope this didn't happen to you Mike.
I don't see the harm in modifying another person's work with the following criteria. The work should no longer carry the original maker's logo OR it should be accompanied by another logo/signature to inidcate someone else worked on it.
I see from a purely reputational standpoint that modifying someone else's cue can lead to that cue being represented as if it's the original maker's work. Bad if the quality sucks, bad if the original maker doesn't even do any similar work, bad because the original maker has to contend with people asking about it if it's not made perfectly clear.
But at the end of the day it's the customer's property and if another cue maker has the means then why shouldn't they take the business? I personally would not do it just out of liability reasons. One year I took a laser engraver to the big Vegas events and did a LOT of cues some of them very high end. I ruined a pair of cues that were north of $2000 for the set and wiped out a week's worth of profits. That cured me right there of putting anyone else's cues in the laser. I finished out the week and never worked on another person's cue again. The only lasering we do now is on our own cues.
Although I don't really see anything morally wrong here I can see that it's akin to modifying a painting or some other modification of a piece of art. I know that I would be somewhat hurt to see any major mods to my cases although I wouldn't be upset at the leather worker who did the work. Nor would I be upset at the customer. I'd just hate to see my baby disfigured in my eyes. Unless of course they did a really good job then I would steal the idea and use it myself.
Hope this didn't happen to you Mike.
I am just a case maker but once I sell a case the customer can do anything he wants to it EXCEPT return it to me for any reason if he chooses to modify beyond the purely cosmetic.
I don't see the harm in modifying another person's work with the following criteria. The work should no longer carry the original maker's logo OR it should be accompanied by another logo/signature to inidcate someone else worked on it.
I see from a purely reputational standpoint that modifying someone else's cue can lead to that cue being represented as if it's the original maker's work. Bad if the quality sucks, bad if the original maker doesn't even do any similar work, bad because the original maker has to contend with people asking about it if it's not made perfectly clear.
But at the end of the day it's the customer's property and if another cue maker has the means then why shouldn't they take the business? I personally would not do it just out of liability reasons. One year I took a laser engraver to the big Vegas events and did a LOT of cues some of them very high end. I ruined a pair of cues that were north of $2000 for the set and wiped out a week's worth of profits. That cured me right there of putting anyone else's cues in the laser. I finished out the week and never worked on another person's cue again. The only lasering we do now is on our own cues.
Although I don't really see anything morally wrong here I can see that it's akin to modifying a painting or some other modification of a piece of art. I know that I would be somewhat hurt to see any major mods to my cases although I wouldn't be upset at the leather worker who did the work. Nor would I be upset at the customer. I'd just hate to see my baby disfigured in my eyes. Unless of course they did a really good job then I would steal the idea and use it myself.
Hope this didn't happen to you Mike.
Hi John
Nothing happened to one of my cues, if it did, I would have no problem calling what I consider a money grubbing ho on the phone and voicing my opinion. I'm a pretty respectable person and I don't care how much experience the cue maker had who built the cue, I wouldn't alter the appearance of it by adding inlays to a non inlay ed cue. Today is the age of the Internet and for those who are not known today but know how to work the forums right, they could be world famous tomorrow. I feel good knowing that I respected them before anyone knew who they were.
Everyone on here with any common sense knows the correct answer to the OPs question. There is only 1 option.
Good points and something I should perhaps put some more thought into. There used to be a guy in Germany named Peter Hackbarth who became well known for "upgrading" cues. He would take a plain cue and turn it into one that looked like a $10,000 cue. And he'd take a couple thousand for his work.
This went on for a few years and he had plenty of work until one day a customer needed to have his Hackbarth cue refinished. Ooops all the "inlays" came right off with the old finish. All decals.
Twice I have had cues refinished by other makers than the original maker and both times those cues have come back discolored.
I will think about your perspective a little deeper.
I am not a money grubbing ho for selling Justis interior replacements am I? Jessie needs new clothes every month.....
Damn Mike, you come up with some of the strongest threads and this one is no exception.
When does the cue start to become not the builders?
I don't think we're talking about ownership here.
Tips, ferrule, rewrap, etc. are routine maintenance services and I wouldn't expect that everyone of my clients send their cue back to me for those services.
But to significantly alter or modify the cue that I built would not sit well with me at all. If I found-out about it, that buyer would never be able to purchase another cue from me, PERIOD.
It was stated that once a client purchases a cue, he's free to do as he pleases with it. On the one hand, that's technically correct.
On the other hand, depending on the request, it borders on disrespect for the orig. builder. Cutting into the cue crosses that line.
Look, it's my name on that cue. If I didn't do the inlay work, then what the hell is that inlay doing on there. It's no longer a true KJ cue and there's no room next to my signature for: "modified by whoever".
That probably doesn't mean much to most who frequent this site but it means something to me.
I'm going to go the extent of saying that those who dabble in this practice have no respect for the original builder and that the prospect of money means more to them than respecting your fellow tradesmen.
If the CMs who indulge in this practice haven't realized it yet, it's being disrespectful. If they do realize it and pursue the request anyway, you have my pity.
When does the cue start to become not the builders?
I don't think we're talking about ownership here.
Tips, ferrule, rewrap, etc. are routine maintenance services and I wouldn't expect that everyone of my clients send their cue back to me for those services.
But to significantly alter or modify the cue that I built would not sit well with me at all. If I found-out about it, that buyer would never be able to purchase another cue from me, PERIOD.
It was stated that once a client purchases a cue, he's free to do as he pleases with it. On the one hand, that's technically correct.
On the other hand, depending on the request, it borders on disrespect for the orig. builder. Cutting into the cue crosses that line.
Look, it's my name on that cue. If I didn't do the inlay work, then what the hell is that inlay doing on there. It's no longer a true KJ cue and there's no room next to my signature for: "modified by whoever".
That probably doesn't mean much to most who frequent this site but it means something to me.
I'm going to go the extent of saying that those who dabble in this practice have no respect for the original builder and that the prospect of money means more to them than respecting your fellow tradesmen.
If the CMs who indulge in this practice haven't realized it yet, it's being disrespectful. If they do realize it and pursue the request anyway, you have my pity.