Miscue...on purpose?!

[victorl]

I played in a tourney yesterday and was watching a semifinal match and this one local pro is playing his buddy and has a nine ball hanger for the win and he lines up straight in and suddenly turns so he is aiming about a foot away from the ball and we're all watching like "What the heck is he doing?". Then he miscues right into the nine and the whole place bursts out laughing.:grin-square: He calls that shot "the deflection".

 

[JDB]

I played in a tourney yesterday and was watching a semifinal match and this one local pro is playing his buddy and has a nine ball hanger for the win and he lines up straight in and suddenly turns so he is aiming about a foot away from the ball and we're all watching like "What the heck is he doing?". Then he miscues right into the nine and the whole place bursts out laughing.:grin-square: He calls that shot "the deflection".

I really think he was probably experimenting with CTE for the first time.

 

[RunoutJJ]

I really think he was probably experimenting with CTE for the first time.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :lol:

 

[Wags]

Foul

I played in a tourney yesterday and was watching a semifinal match and this one local pro is playing his buddy and has a nine ball hanger for the win and he lines up straight in and suddenly turns so he is aiming about a foot away from the ball and we're all watching like "What the heck is he doing?". Then he miscues right into the nine and the whole place bursts out laughing.:grin-square: He calls that shot "the deflection".

So when is a miscue a foul and when is it not a foul? I thought if the CB hit the ferrule or shaft it was a foul.

Rule sarcasm is fun!:grin-square:

 

[victorl]

Haha cte...thats a good one
I never thought about what kind of miscue constitutes a foul and what doesn't. I always thought a miscue was punishment enough but are there any definitive rules on this?

 

[shinobi]

I played in a tourney yesterday and was watching a semifinal match and this one local pro is playing his buddy and has a nine ball hanger for the win and he lines up straight in and suddenly turns so he is aiming about a foot away from the ball and we're all watching like "What the heck is he doing?". Then he miscues right into the nine and the whole place bursts out laughing.:grin-square: He calls that shot "the deflection".

Pretty funny. I have to assume the two balls weren't very far away and/or the 9 was a bit of a hanger for him to do that, because it'd be hard to do that with accuracy.

That type of miscue is not a double hit, so shouldn't be a foul under any rules I know of.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

I always thought they were a foul, but no one calls them. I wonder if Dr. Dave has a slow-mo of one.

 

[Wags]

Rules 3.21 - 3.29 - 3.24

Haha cte...thats a good one
I never thought about what kind of miscue constitutes a foul and what doesn't. I always thought a miscue was punishment enough but are there any definitive rules on this?

3.21 FOULS BY TOUCHING BALLS
It is a foul to strike, touch or in any way make contact with the cue ball in play or any object balls in play with anything (the body, clothing, chalk, me- mechanical bridge, cue shaft, etc.) except the cue tip (while attached to the cue shaft), which may contact the cue ball in the execution of a legal shot.

3.29 SPECIAL INTENTIONAL FOUL PENALTY
The cue ball in play shall not be intentionally struck with anything other than a cue’s attached tip (such as the ferrule, shaft, etc.). While such contact is automatically a foul under the provisions of Rule 3.19, if the referee deems the contact to be intentional, he shall warn the player once during a match that a second violation during that match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. If a second violation does occur, the match must be forfeited.

3.24 PUSH SHOT FOULS
It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.)

I can make some push shots by intentionally playing a miscue. Yet, how can anyone know that I was playing it intentionally. My penalty is just a warning if it is deemed intentional and that's okay because I've already won the match. I'm willing to take the prescribed penalty to win the match. Am I playing within the rules or is it cheap?

 

[cleary]

playing 8ball by most "bar rules" where you do not have to hit a ball or rail, miscueing on purpose is sometimes the best move. Most bars that play by these kind of rules, playing a safe on purpose will get you in a fight.

Like you come to the table or leave yourself this 8ball, rather than kicking at it and selling out, a miscue on purpose can save the game.

CueTable Help

 

[shinobi]

3.29 SPECIAL INTENTIONAL FOUL PENALTY
The cue ball in play shall not be intentionally struck with anything other than a cue’s attached tip (such as the ferrule, shaft, etc.). While such contact is automatically a foul under the provisions of Rule 3.19, if the referee deems the contact to be intentional, he shall warn the player once during a match that a second violation during that match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. If a second violation does occur, the match must be forfeited.

As described, it is possible that the intentional miscue was shot without fouling (ie: without striking the ball with the ferrule, shaft, etc). Of course, it might also not have been. I wasn't there. Just as an example, if I wipe the chalk off my cue tip and strike the exteme outer edge of a cue ball (barely cut across it at an angle) the cueball will deflect away sideways and make the familiar "clink" sound of a tip miscuing on the cueball, but at no point was the ball hit twice or with anything other than the tip.

There is a useful safety shot involving an intentional legal miscue. Bert Kinister covers this at length in one of his videos called "The $100 Tape".

 

[Bob Jewett]

... There is a useful safety shot involving an intentional legal miscue. Bert Kinister covers this at length in one of his videos called "The $100 Tape".

I think Bert needs to reread the rules. Playing a shot by intentionally miscuing is now considered unsportsmanlike conduct and could result in expulsion from the tournament and forfeiture of all prize money (or maybe something else short of that). See http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.16

The situation in the OP may have been governed by bar rules rather than any written set of rules.

 

[Luxury]

playing 8ball by most "bar rules" where you do not have to hit a ball or rail, miscueing on purpose is sometimes the best move. Most bars that play by these kind of rules, playing a safe on purpose will get you in a fight.

Like you come to the table or leave yourself this 8ball, rather than kicking at it and selling out, a miscue on purpose can save the game.

CueTable Help

Ya learn something new every day.

 

[midstroke]

I got to agree with cleary on this one. Some bars you will need to do this on purpose. Easiest way for me is to use a ton of high and miscue while rolling the ball forward. But then you have to stand straight up and act dissapointed. Then be like dang i got lucky on that leave!!

 

[mjantti]

Intentional miscue is treated as unsportsmanlike conduct:

"6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately."

Notice that there are different penalties for this.

 

[Wags]

miscue?????

As I was saying... how can anyone know if it was intentional or not, just like in the bar. You may only need to do it once and usually there is no ref watching. Even if there was...how can a call like that be made unless you've done it numerous times and it's been reported.

Rules that are near impossible to enforce are not good rules.

 

[victorl]

It was just a weekly house tourney at a local hall so I dont know exactly what rules they use. And he only did it because he was playing his buddy and thought we'd all get a kick out of it. Nothing wrong with that imo. By the way the ob was about 2 feet away but with a little practice the miscue is pretty predictable...the guys at the next table must have thought i was the worst player ever lol

 

[shinobi]

I think Bert needs to reread the rules. Playing a shot by intentionally miscuing is now considered unsportsmanlike conduct and could result in expulsion from the tournament and forfeiture of all prize money (or maybe something else short of that). See http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.16

The situation in the OP may have been governed by bar rules rather than any written set of rules.

Dang, now I wish I had a way to show you Bert's video so I could get your comment on it. I have a feeling it _might_ still be okay (his shot) as it's even debatable as to whether or not you'd call it a "miscue" per se. Oh well, without being able to show you the video or show you the shot in question, it's impossible to get accurate comment on it. Unless you have the DVD.

 

[victorl]

I think that rule is in place to prevent the miscue jump shot that bar players love to do. In my mind thats the only shot where it would be clear that the shooter is intentionally trying to miscue. Enforcing that rule in any other situation would just lead to a big argument.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think that rule is in place to prevent the miscue jump shot that bar players love to do. In my mind thats the only shot where it would be clear that the shooter is intentionally trying to miscue. Enforcing that rule in any other situation would just lead to a big argument.

If there is a referee, there is no argument (or at least it's short). If there is no referee, there is a procedure for dealing with sticky situations, but it is not perfect. There are at least four shots I know of not including the miscue jump shot where a miscue is useful -- I wonder which one of them Bert was talking about. Maybe someone could describe his shot.

A fifth (sort of) situation calling for a miscue is a shot I saw a local minor hustler practicing that was a little like the OP's shot: on the nine ball miscue with draw but still make the nine straight in to make the shot look like luck. At least once this guy had to leave the pool room by the back door and leave his stick on the table.

 

[Lance Link]

I think that rule is in place to prevent the miscue jump shot that bar players love to do. In my mind thats the only shot where it would be clear that the shooter is intentionally trying to miscue. Enforcing that rule in any other situation would just lead to a big argument.

Once my cousin and I were at a bar playing a couple guys and neither of them could play position for s*** (but they looked like they we're feelin' pretty good). Then one of them staggers over and asks, "Can I jump over your ball with the white ball ?"

Sure, why not ?

He proceeds to 'scoop' the cue under the ball, makes the ball jump over my ball and actually MAKES the ball he was shooting at !!

"Oh, that's not a jump shot ?"

My cousin says, "No, but it's cool. Go ahead, we're not playin' for anything."

Then he asks (slurred speech), "You guysh wanna play ush for a few bucksh ? I'm feelin' kinda lucky. I jush won't do any of the jumper shot thingsh."

We're in a bar... in the middle of nowhere... and it's getting late...

We purposely 'lost' the game, and watched him play a few other guys while we had a couple more drinks. He did the 'scoop' trick two more times (and miscued a couple more), and somebody bit after that when he offered to play for $100.

Amazing how quickly a $100 game can sober someone up...