Aiming Voodoo Video

It's easier to see the point of the diagram when you look at the linked one which is the bigger version.

The bridge location is different for all three shots because the actual body placement is different for all three shots. All three shots however begin with the same initial sighting, which is center to edge.

As you can see the Center to Edge Line for each shot converges on the center of the cueball but then the important part happens, they all diverge from that point and each produces a DIFFERENT sighting line and subsequently a different bridge hand placement (not shown) which in turn produces a DIFFERENT aiming line for each shot.

After the pivot the cue lands on the ghost ball line for each shot.

What's important to see here though beyond the fact that three shots get three aiming lines despite using the same three steps to aim is that the points where the lines exit the cue ball towards the shooter are separated by very little distance. Thus the actual pivot distance from the closest shot to the farthest shot is very nearly the same but is actually unique to each shot.

So, from the shooter's perspective (at least from mine) the three shots can all be made with zero adjustment in technique.

And this is how it is for shots all over the table, for the shooter using CTE it's the same method no matter what the shot is.
Okay, the system you're describing is different than the system cleary described in his video (though I'm sure it's not all too different). Since I watched cleary's video, let's analyze that particular system.

In the below diagram, I have a fixed CB position, and I want to cut balls 1 through 8 into the top left corner pocket. I used the 9 ball to draw a line through the edge of the CB and the centers all 8 object balls. So all of the shots have the EXACT SAME "edge to center" lines.

Now, from the system that cleary described in his video, how exactly do you get 8 unique aim lines from the very same "edge to center" line?

Alright, I know some people would object that the 8 and 7 ball should use the "edge-to-opposite edge" line. Well, okay...but exactly at what point down the yellow line do you abruptly switch from "edge to center" to "edge to opposite edge"? Is it the 6 ball? The 7 ball? Somewhere in between the 6 and 7? Where?

CueTable Help

 
according to clearys info 2-7 would be edge to center and 8 would be edge to opposite edge is how i understand it. The 2 being around a diamond away makes it a etc.

my way, i would shoot center to left edge on the 1-6 pivoting from left. On the 7-8 i would shoot center to left edge but pivoting from the right. An angle of 45+, i will switch my pivot to other side and from around 40 - 50 degree shots are the most difficult for me to make.

u have to make minor adjustments to make some of these shots that are easily made when experienced with pivoting systems, is my opinion and experience.
 
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Okay, the system you're describing is different than the system cleary described in his video (though I'm sure it's not all too different). Since I watched cleary's video, let's analyze that particular system.

In the below diagram, I have a fixed CB position, and I want to cut balls 1 through 8 into the top left corner pocket. I used the 9 ball to draw a line through the edge of the CB and the centers all 8 object balls. So all of the shots have the EXACT SAME "edge to center" lines.

Now, from the system that cleary described in his video, how exactly do you get 8 unique aim lines from the very same "edge to center" line?

Alright, I know some people would object that the 8 and 7 ball should use the "edge-to-opposite edge" line. Well, okay...but exactly at what point down the yellow line do you abruptly switch from "edge to center" to "edge to opposite edge"? Is it the 6 ball? The 7 ball? Somewhere in between the 6 and 7? Where?

CueTable Help


You're assuming the pivot point is identical for these shots. You have two variables for each shot in pool:
1) The alignment: ETE, ETC, ETRE
2) Pivot point.

You arc differently for each shot and for some of those shots your alignment shifts from ETC to ETRE (edge to reverse edge)

As the distance increase, the arc flattens. If the pivot remains a constant, you must adjust the alignment.
 
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jsp,

You get different aiming lines through the visual perspective created by the increasing distance of each successive ball. In a real world demonstration, while standing behind the cueball, your aiming point is right edge of the cueball to the center of the object ball. As the balls become increasingly smaller, you will shift your body to the right to aim to the center of the object ball, pre-pivot. This is not taken into consideration with a WEI pool table.

The alignment changes after the spot shot to 90/reverse 90 (edge to opposite edge).

Best,
Mike
 
See comments in blue above. I remain eager to learn from Stan's upcoming video.

My point, which I should have elaborated on, is that it doesn't matter if Hal's comments were off the wall or not as long as his actual methods hold up.

Frankly if so-called naysayers are digging up Hal's comments to disagree with years later then the problem is deeper than it should be.

Deal with the people who are actively participating in the discussions, the top shelf instructors who are talking about the systems.

When I met Hal he told me that Earl Strickland uses this method and Efren uses that method and so and so uses this method...... I wasn't listening and frankly didn't care. When I settled down to follow his instructions I found that amazingly and confusingly what he told me to do produced positive results. That's where the proof is in my opinion.

As for Hal's exuberant comments if I spent so many years working on these systems and I truly felt that they were head and shoulders above everything else then I'd probably make such claims as well.

But the fact remains that when all the advertising fluff is removed the systems actually work. And not only do they work they are being taught by some of the best instructors around.
 
Okay, the system you're describing is different than the system cleary described in his video (though I'm sure it's not all too different). Since I watched cleary's video, let's analyze that particular system.

In the below diagram, I have a fixed CB position, and I want to cut balls 1 through 8 into the top left corner pocket. I used the 9 ball to draw a line through the edge of the CB and the centers all 8 object balls. So all of the shots have the EXACT SAME "edge to center" lines.

Now, from the system that cleary described in his video, how exactly do you get 8 unique aim lines from the very same "edge to center" line?

Alright, I know some people would object that the 8 and 7 ball should use the "edge-to-opposite edge" line. Well, okay...but exactly at what point down the yellow line do you abruptly switch from "edge to center" to "edge to opposite edge"? Is it the 6 ball? The 7 ball? Somewhere in between the 6 and 7? Where?

CueTable Help


I do not know the 90/90 system and therefore am unqualified to comment on where you should do what.

I will say that when you are on the table these things are easy to demonstrate and the nature of the system (CTE for me) becomes clear with a little practice.

For each of these shots that you show I would use the center of the cueball to the edge of the object ball. If cutting to the left then I use the right edge and if cutting to the right I use the left edge. For a straight in shot I use either edge. This is why I personally prefer Center to Edge over 90/90 although I admittedly have not worked with 90/90 enough to know the proper procedure for all shots.
 
You're assuming the pivot point is identical for these shots. You have two variables for each shot in pool:
1) The alignment: ETE, ETC, ETRE
2) Pivot point.
The video does a somewhat decent job determining #1. Doesn't mention at all about determining #2.

You arc differently for each shot and for some of those shots your alignment shifts from ETC to ETRE (edge to reverse edge)
What does "arc" mean? And at what point do you shift from ETC to ETRE? How do you know?
 
You get different aiming lines through the visual perspective created by the increasing distance of each successive ball. In a real world demonstration, while standing behind the cueball, your aiming point is right edge of the cueball to the center of the object ball. As the balls become increasingly smaller, you will shift your body to the right to aim to the center of the object ball, pre-pivot.
I still don't understand how it makes a difference if the OB moves further away. It's still THE SAME edge to center line. Are you saying that you have to "shift your body to the right" in proportion to the distance between the OB and CB? By how much exactly?

The alignment changes after the spot shot to 90/reverse 90 (edge to opposite edge).
Why the spot exactly?

Remember, I'm critiquing the claim that this is an EXACT system. I need EXACT answers and explanations.
 
u have to make minor adjustments to make some of these shots that are easily made when experienced with pivoting systems, is my opinion and experience.
If you have to make "minor adjustments", then it's not an "exact" system...unless these adjustments can be exactly determined by the system itself.
 
right edge of the cb to opposite edge of the ob will make the 1234 in the top side pocket and 567 should be a crossbank in the corner,im pretty sure.

i think ete from left will be bank corner 345678.

do the opposite for the other side i believe, but cue ball is off to the side a bit.

this is what it looks like to me using 90/90, i am using my cte experience to notice this.

this is all my opinion here, taken from clearys pictures and jsp table :thumbup: this is easily seen with cte experience. i also dont know the 90/90 system but i think im right? There seems to be a lot of options using just center and edges of balls for aiming eh lol
 
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If you have to make "minor adjustments", then it's not an "exact" system...unless these adjustments can be exactly determined by the system itself.

i never said cte was anything other than a great aiming system or a system of pocketing balls :thumbup:
 
:wink::thumbup:
I still don't understand how it makes a difference if the OB moves further away. It's still THE SAME edge to center line. Are you saying that you have to "shift your body to the right" in proportion to the distance between the OB and CB? By how much exactly?


Why the spot exactly?

Remember, I'm critiquing the claim that this is an EXACT system. I need EXACT answers and explanations.

Hi,
EXACT?
Would center of the CB aimed at the center of the OB be EXACT for a straight in shot assuming one's stroke and alignment is EXACT....yes.

Would aiming the center of the CB at the edge about the equator of the OB at 3:00 or 9:00 opposite the line from the pocket/target through the OB be EXACT for a 30 degree cut angle (geometrically correct)....almost, for there may be CIT unless one uses top or draw english.

If one could line up the edge of the OB (say 9:00) to the opposite edge of the CB (3:00) while stroking parallel to that line at the center of the CB be EXACT for a 90 degree cut...should be except for parallax view that may induce a slight angular error that will cause the CB to miss the OB (thin) or perhaps achieving an 85 degree cut and not the 90 degree desired...not EXACT.

These are 3 cut angles that can be as close to EXACT as possible for GB, 90/90 and double distance aiming.

The straight in shot and the 30 degree CTE shot will work "EXACT" regardless of the distance between the CB and the OB.

The 90 degree cut tough has to adjust for the smaller appearing OB as the distance between the CB and OB increases - the OB appears to become smaller and so does the GB have to be respected as appearing smaller in order to hit the OB correctly.

To me, the rest of the cut angles need to be adjusted for the shooters perceptions of the pre-pivot shift from CTE to 1/2 OB, 1/4 OB and 1/8 OB from the CTE edge. WIth practice, one might be able to use 3/8 OB or 1/16 OB to get close to the other cut angles from 31 degrees to 90 degrees.

For cut angles from 1 degree to 29 degrees, I would aim at the double distance points on the OB.

Some here understand this.:wink::thumbup:
 
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If you have to make "minor adjustments", then it's not an "exact" system...unless these adjustments can be exactly determined by the system itself.

Jsp, have you shot any shots with the system as described in the video?
 
Being as this thread is about 90/90 I am bowing out of it now.
Please don't leave. How exactly does 90/90 differ from the CTE with which you're more familiar?

I would like for you to describe how you'd use CTE to pocket balls 1-8 in my diagram. Thanks.
 
I still don't understand how it makes a difference if the OB moves further away. It's still THE SAME edge to center line. Are you saying that you have to "shift your body to the right" in proportion to the distance between the OB and CB? By how much exactly?

Why the spot exactly?

Remember, I'm critiquing the claim that this is an EXACT system. I need EXACT answers and explanations.

First, this system is not dependent on the center to edge reference for an initial aiming point. It uses ETE for straight-ins or thicker cuts. For diagramming purposes we can use this setup, but only for a baseline.

To truly appreciate the subtle changes in the cueball/object ball relationship, this setup should be viewed on the table. Small changes are necessary to align the shooter from the right edge of the cueball to the center of the object ball as the distance increases. It is not possible to understand this unless you physically view it from a live setup.

Start with the closest ball. Sight right edge of the cueball to the center of the object ball. Note this alignment, remove the object ball, and repeat this setup for the next ball. Continue until you notice how you are adjusting for each shot by moving your aim to the right to hit the object ball center. Without trying this we can't discuss anything further.

Second, for my pivot, at around 30+ degrees I move my aiming point. Each individual will have a unique pivot arc and this will dictate their aiming change for this system, but it will be pretty close in all cases. Exceptions will be a non-standard pivot such as Cleary has demonstrated, where he can adjust to a wider range of shots by pivoting/adjusting his bridge and employ a hip or arm pivot. To each his own.

Best,
Mike
 
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The video does a somewhat decent job determining #1. Doesn't mention at all about determining #2.

"Pivot" could mean anything, right? If you drive a nail through your shaft 7" from the tip and turned the cue around that axis, you'd see that you'd start to miss the OB completely after the 3rd ball or so in your diagram. So, common sense says you're supposed to HIT the ball; therefore, you must always pivot in such a way where the arc of your pivot hits the "correct" center of the CB. This drives the pivot point farther back, depending on distance.

For instance, if a 90/90 shot was within a diamond in distance, most people retain their flat hip pivot and move their alignment to a ETC orientation. This doesn't have to be done--- you can recognize that the "shot circle" is smaller, thus having a curvier arc around its circumference. You can maintain the 90/90 alignment and pivot along this smaller circle and make a harder "turn" to center.

What does "arc" mean? And at what point do you shift from ETC to ETRE? How do you know?

See above. If you're still confused, pinch your cue at 5" from the tip and rotate around that point. Do the same for 7", 12" and 24" as well as from the buttcap. Pay close attention to the arc your tip makes as it makes its 1/2 ball turn. For all intensive purposes, when you pivot from your buttcap, you'll see that the tip takes a shorter (more direct path) from the beginning of your pivot to the end of your pivot (center ball).

arcen.jpg


If your tip follows the path of line 1 and line 2--- which path is longer? Therefore, the arc of your pivot has a profound affect in which "center" of the CB you land on. That's why when you say you missed 9/10 shots from a medium distance, you probably took no care in the world in your arc based on the distance (and/or alignment). Given, you probably followed the directions you had at the time-- but there's obviously more to it than that.

Perception errors, in my opinion, account for a huge percentage of misses as well. People THINK they're aligned ETE, but they're really not. Their tip is pointing out to left or right field when they think their alignment is good.

A great way to overcome perception errors for ETE alignments is to pretend you're shooting a stop shot. A stop shot is typically an alignment an intermediate and above player can SEE and repeat as often as necessary. Once you're standing up behind the shot (let's say this is a 90-90 to the left) and you're pretty much in position to step into the shot as if it were a stop shot, move your feet 1" to the left of where you normally would step in. Instead of aligning your cue to the center, align it parallel to the left at the left edge and then hip-pivot to center ball. If you do this correctly, you should feel "uncomfy" pre-pivot and then pivot into comfort. Otherwise, if you step into shot with your body in a post-pivot position and pivot to center ball, you're pivoting from solid comfort into an unstable body position. It's just the opposite when going to the right.

ETC alignments can present perception errors for players with a strong dominant eye (such as myself). You'll probably find that one cut direction is far better than the other. I recommend you always start from a center-to-center position while standing up (since we all know how to SEE a stop shot) and rotate around the OB from one ETE to the other edge and find the midpoint. Over a few months, you'll find that you can do this with an amazing tolerance. Developing this ability to "see" lines and alignments usually isn't an overnight thing; however, it'll take players WAY less time to train themselves how to see these positions versus the base of a ghost ball.

Anyways, hope this is helpful. I'm jacked up on Dunkin' Donuts coffee at work and was energized to make a good reply.

Dave
 
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To truly appreciate the subtle changes in the cueball/object ball relationship, this setup should be viewed on the table. Small changes are necessary to align the shooter from the right edge of the cueball to the center of the object ball as the distance increases. It is not possible to understand this unless you physically view it from a live setup.
But it's the same right edge of the CB to the center of the OB line for every single ball.

Start with the closest ball. Sight right edge of the cueball to the center of the object ball. Note this alignment, remove the object ball, and repeat this setup for the next ball. Continue until you notice how you are adjusting for each shot by moving your body to the right to hit the object ball center.
Again, it's the EXACT SAME edge to center line for each ball. That is the whole point of the example I gave. As you line up one OB to the next, your initial body position shouldn't move at all, because it's the exact same ETC line.

Without trying this we can't discuss anything further.
Without you realizing it's the same ETC line for every ball, we can't discuss anything further.
 
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If your tip follows the path of line 1 and line 2--- which path is longer? Therefore, the arc of your pivot has a profound affect in which "center" of the CB you land on. That's why when you say you missed 9/10 shots from a medium distance, you probably took no care in the world in your arc based on the distance (and/or alignment). Given, you probably followed the directions you had at the time-- but there's obviously more to it than that.
Dave, I appreciate the thorough explanation. I understand completely.

And you're absolutely right, when I missed 9 out of 10 shots, I didn't pay attention at all at modifying my pivot point based on the CB/OB distance, because that wasn't mentioned at all in the video. I simply fixed my pivot point, pivoted the same way on all shots, and proceeded to miss 90% of them.

If you drive a nail through your shaft 7" from the tip and turned the cue around that axis, you'd see that you'd start to miss the OB completely after the 3rd ball or so in your diagram. So, common sense says you're supposed to HIT the ball; therefore, you must always pivot in such a way where the arc of your pivot hits the "correct" center of the CB. This drives the pivot point farther back, depending on distance.
Exactly right again. This is common sense. But unless the system tells me EXACTLY where to pivot the cue, or EXACTLY what arc to take, based on the CB/OB distance, then this isn't an EXACT system.

What you described is the "feel" component that many of the so-called naysayers have been trying argue regarding these systems.
 
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