Aiming Voodoo Video

jsp said:
Dave, I appreciate the thorough explanation. I understand completely.

And you're absolutely right, when I missed 9 out of 10 shots, I didn't pay attention at all at modifying my pivot point based on the CB/OB distance, because that wasn't mentioned at all in the video. I simply fixed my pivot point, pivoted the same way on all shots, and proceeded to miss 90% of them.


Exactly right again. This is common sense. But unless the system tells me EXACTLY where to pivot the cue, or EXACTLY what arc to take, based on the CB/OB distance, then this isn't an EXACT system.

What you described is the "feel" component that many of the so-called naysayers have been trying argue regarding these systems.
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What Dave is describing is the PRACTICE part of the system. There is a difference between knowing that the PP is adjustable with distance and knowing how much and simply guessing.

Don't get hung up on the word exact here. The "naysayers" are not hung up on it either. Certain people just have ego wrapped into the discussion and for them the discussion passed the point of rational conversation years ago.

Dave is giving up some damn good information here and this is how the discussion is supposed to go. Hopefully it will continue on a good path.
 
jsp said:
Dave, I appreciate the thorough explanation. I understand completely.

And you're absolutely right, when I missed 9 out of 10 shots, I didn't pay attention at all at modifying my pivot point based on the CB/OB distance, because that wasn't mentioned at all in the video. I simply fixed my pivot point, pivoted the same way on all shots, and proceeded to miss 90% of them.


Exactly right again. This is common sense. But unless the system tells me EXACTLY where to pivot the cue, or EXACTLY what arc to take, based on the CB/OB distance, then this isn't an EXACT system.

What you described is the "feel" component that many of the so-called naysayers have been trying argue regarding these systems.
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If you think of the OB as a sticker on a sheet of glass that comes up from the slate of the table, think of the glass as the edge of a shot circle. You must pretend your cue extends to this plane -- pivot along this plane as if it were the circumference of a shot circle. If you force along this arc from your bridge, the center of the circle works itself out automatically. To me, this isn't feel. I supposed it could be feel the first time someone does this - but only because of perception, not because of mechanics.

Dave
 
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jsp said:
Please don't leave. How exactly does 90/90 differ from the CTE with which you're more familiar?

I would like for you to describe how you'd use CTE to pocket balls 1-8 in my diagram. Thanks.
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I did describe how I would make them using CTE. See my previous post responding to yours.
 
sdfsf

jsp said:
But it's the same right edge of the CB to the center of the OB line for every single ball.


Again, it's the EXACT SAME edge to center line for each ball. That is the whole point of the example I gave. As you line up one OB to the next, your initial body position shouldn't move at all, because it's the exact same ETC line.


Without you realizing it's the same ETC line for every ball, we can't discuss anything further.
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If you go back to the very first post you will see the basic rules. ETE for thick cuts, ETC for thin cuts, ETOE for thinner cuts.

So, using those three rules each of the shots presented falls into one of those categories.

When I look at the Cuetable in 3d I see each shot easily in terms of how I would line up and which of the three alignments presented that I would use for each shot.

Just looking at it I would go Right Edge to Right Edge for 1-6, Right Edge to Center for 7 and Right Edge to Left Edge for 8. Using 90/90 as presented in the first post by Cleary. Given that the cue ball is in a fixed position the two variables are body position and pivot point.

For me the pivot point works itself out seemingly automatically, not subconsciously, just automatically given the initial alignment and how I am facing the balls. There is not any feeling of right or wrong, it just is and I take the line given by the system.

I haven't however yet tried these shots with 90/90 and I probably will when I get to the table.

Also I wanted to add that yes the shots all have the same ETC line but that line is not what you use to align to the shot using 90/90.

If you use CTE then you will see that every shot has a different CTE line and if you extend that line through the back of the cue ball and see how it fans out then you will see that for every shot the body position is different - I believe that this realization is a key ingredient in understanding these systems. Until now I have seen that most opponents of the systems start and stop with the cue ball without regard to where the shooter is. Once the lines are extended it is clear to me at least that the shooter's position is adjusted BY THE SYSTEM - i.e. if you use the Center to Edge line then moving the object ball five inches farther away moves the shooter the corresponding distance to the left or right of the cue ball. Thus if you are looking for exactitude then this has to have a definite calculation where every different position of the balls results in a different but MEASURABLE difference in the position of the cue.

In other words JUST using the balls and the CTE line it's possible to get in the SAME alignment to the balls every time. The same thing applies to using the centers of the balls as well. And for the purpose of the discussion that alignment would be near enough to qualify as exact. So no matter where you put the cue ball and the object ball I can get on a line where my body is a point on a line which passes though the center of the cueball and to the edge of the object ball. So far I think that we are clear.

So now we come to how to go from there to the actual shot line which the cueball will travel on to contact the object ball and send the object ball to the pocket.

It is my contention that given the distance between the balls the distance between the CTE line and the edge of the cue ball.............continued later.
 
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JB Cases said:
I do not know the 90/90 system and therefore am unqualified to comment on where you should do what.

I will say that when you are on the table these things are easy to demonstrate and the nature of the system (CTE for me) becomes clear with a little practice.

For each of these shots that you show I would use the center of the cueball to the edge of the object ball. If cutting to the left then I use the right edge and if cutting to the right I use the left edge. For a straight in shot I use either edge. This is why I personally prefer Center to Edge over 90/90 although I admittedly have not worked with 90/90 enough to know the proper procedure for all shots.
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Dave it's the eight ball, There all 90/90 except the 7 and the 8..The 7 is 90 to center and the 8 is 90/90 reverse which is what you call 90 to opposite 90..

regards Ron V
 
JB Cases said:
If you go back to the very first post you will see the basic rules. ETE for thick cuts, ETC for thin cuts, ETOE for thinner cuts.

So, using those three rules each of the shots presented falls into one of those categories.

When I look at the Cuetable in 3d I see each shot easily in terms of how I would line up and which of the three alignments presented that I would use for each shot.

Just looking at it I would go Right Edge to Right Edge for 1-6, Right Edge to Center for 7 and Right Edge to Left Edge for 8. Using 90/90 as presented in the first post by Cleary. Given that the cue ball is in a fixed position the two variables are body position and pivot point.

For me the pivot point works itself out seemingly automatically, not subconsciously, just automatically given the initial alignment and how I am facing the balls. There is not any feeling of right or wrong, it just is and I take the line given by the system.

I haven't however yet tried these shots with 90/90 and I probably will when I get to the table.

Also I wanted to add that yes the shots all have the same ETC line but that line is not what you use to align to the shot using 90/90.

If you use CTE then you will see that every shot has a different CTE line and if you extend that line through the back of the cue ball and see how it fans out then you will see that for every shot the body position is different - I believe that this realization is a key ingredient in understanding these systems. Until now I have seen that most opponents of the systems start and stop with the cue ball without regard to where the shooter is. Once the lines are extended it is clear to me at least that the shooter's position is adjusted BY THE SYSTEM - i.e. if you use the Center to Edge line then moving the object ball five inches farther away moves the shooter the corresponding distance to the left or right of the cue ball. Thus if you are looking for exactitude then this has to have a definite calculation where every different position of the balls results in a different but MEASURABLE difference in the position of the cue.

In other words JUST using the balls and the CTE line it's possible to get in the SAME alignment to the balls every time. The same thing applies to using the centers of the balls as well. And for the purpose of the discussion that alignment would be near enough to qualify as exact. So no matter where you put the cue ball and the object ball I can get on a line where my body is a point on a line which passes though the center of the cueball and to the edge of the object ball. So far I think that we are clear.

So now we come to how to go from there to the actual shot line which the cueball will travel on to contact the object ball and send the object ball to the pocket.

It is my contention that given the distance between the balls the distance between the CTE line and the edge of the cue ball.............continued later.
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John,your right on..You can shoot the whole table 90/90 as long as the OP and the CB are more than 2 diamonds apart. The reason is that when the CB and the OB are far apart you will get 2x the cut when your only swiveling a 1/2 ball on the CB so you can say it's 2 to 1..
Now no one has ever written about this,I discovered this in 1993 when I was teaching myself the system.The great players that i asked to help me could not teach.
If you have any ?'s about the 90/90 feel free to ask me.i don;t have problem telling you all what it's all about..

Ron V.
 
RonV said:
John,your right on..You can shoot the whole table 90/90 as long as the OP and the CB are more than 2 diamonds apart. The reason is that when the CB and the OB are far apart you will get 2x the cut when your only swiveling a 1/2 ball on the CB so you can say it's 2 to 1..
Now no one has ever written about this,I discovered this in 1993 when I was teaching myself the system.The great players that i asked to help me could not teach.
If you have any ?'s about the 90/90 feel free to ask me.i don;t have problem telling you all what it's all about..

Ron V.
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Ron, I've heard some good things about your light reflection systems. Would you have any interest in starting a thread to discuss those systems?
 
jsp said:
But it's the same right edge of the CB to the center of the OB line for every single ball.

No it's not. You didn't set up the balls on a table like I asked.

Again, it's the EXACT SAME edge to center line for each ball. That is the whole point of the example I gave. As you line up one OB to the next, your initial body position shouldn't move at all, because it's the exact same ETC line.

Again, you didn't set up on a table and notice the perspective change.

Without you realizing it's the same ETC line for every ball, we can't discuss anything further.
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I know how to use the 90/90 system, and Cte, and Pro One. What else did you want to explain to me? I've even invented a couple more pivot systems and figured out how to pivot from one direction only using 90/90. Let me know if you're different than any of the others that never really put out the effort to understand an answer to their questions. Thinking about it is not the same as doing it. You asked...I responded. If you'd have checked it out on a table you would have seen my points.

Best,
Mike
 
eezbank said:
Ron, I've heard some good things about your light reflection systems. Would you have any interest in starting a thread to discuss those systems?
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There are only 2 shots that you can use the light system.And they are semi straight shots, on the left and right angle..One you would aim at the top of the light and the other you would aim at the bottom of the light..

Then there are the shadow shots The balls would have to be very close together, like 1" apart and the could be 8" from the hole. That would produce a shadow between the CB and the OB ball..Then just look over the top of the ball and find the very edge of the shadow, then bring your stick down and aim at the edge of the shadow from the center of the CB and it will go in like it had eyes..

That will be enough lessons for the day
Ron V.
 
RonV said:
There are only 2 shots that you can use the light system.And they are semi straight shots, on the left and right angle..One you would aim at the top of the light and the other you would aim at the bottom of the light..

Then there are the shadow shots The balls would have to be very close together, like 1" apart and the could be 8" from the hole. That would produce a shadow between the CB and the OB ball..Then just look over the top of the ball and find the very edge of the shadow, then bring your stick down and aim at the edge of the shadow from the center of the CB and it will go in like it had eyes..

That will be enough lessons for the day
Ron V.
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Thanks Ron!
 
JB Cases said:
For me the pivot point works itself out seemingly automatically, not subconsciously, just automatically given the initial alignment and how I am facing the balls. There is not any feeling of right or wrong, it just is and I take the line given by the system.
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Please describe this process in detail. Given my diagram, the initial alignment should be the same for most of the shots (given the same ETC line). How exactly do you pivot differently depending on each ball?

JB Cases said:
If you use CTE then you will see that every shot has a different CTE line and if you extend that line through the back of the cue ball and see how it fans out then you will see that for every shot the body position is different - I believe that this realization is a key ingredient in understanding these systems.
Click to expand...
If CTE means lining up the center of the CB to the edge of the OB, then of course my example will have different CTE lines for each ball. I made the example such that all shots had the same ETC line, not CTE line. It's just as easy to make another diagram with the OB lined up such that they all have the same CTE line. For this modified example (same CTE line), how do you pivot differently for each of these shots using CTE?

JB Cases said:
So now we come to how to go from there to the actual shot line which the cueball will travel on to contact the object ball and send the object ball to the pocket.

It is my contention that given the distance between the balls the distance between the CTE line and the edge of the cue ball.............continued later.
Click to expand...
Lol, was this a joke? Are you stringing me along? Awaiting the rest of your post...
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
If you think of the OB as a sticker on a sheet of glass that comes up from the slate of the table, think of the glass as the edge of a shot circle. You must pretend your cue extends to this plane -- pivot along this plane as if it were the circumference of a shot circle. If you force along this arc from your bridge, the center of the circle works itself out automatically. To me, this isn't feel. I supposed it could be feel the first time someone does this - but only because of perception, not because of mechanics.
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This still doesn't explain exactly where the pivot point should be. It certainly seems like pivoting is done purely by feel and experience.
 
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As to OB is positioned down table, it should appear to be a smaller diameter. At a focal plane at the CB where one is setting up the aim, the OB will be a smaller and smaller diameter as the OB is farther and farther away from the the larger appearing CB.

One can use the proportions of the smaller diameter OB to adjust the aim line i.e. the distance from the OB edge to it's center is also smaller and smaller as the OB is farther away from the CB.

By using the smaller proportional distances, one can decrease the included angle from the CTE to the aim line to the GB. This will prevent the CB missing the GB to the outside.

This speaks to the prepivot shift changing/decreasing (decreasing attendant included angle as well) as the OB is farther away from the CB.

Next?:):thumbup:
 
jsp said:
Please describe this process in detail. Given my diagram, the initial alignment should be the same for most of the shots (given the same ETC line). How exactly do you pivot differently depending on each ball?

Any time the balls are different positions relative to each other the alignment will be different. I have just hooked up an overhead camera and with this hope to be able to clarify this some more.

I do not know exactly how I pivot differently for each ball. For me it "feels" as if the pivot is the same or so close as to not be noticeably different.


If CTE means lining up the center of the CB to the edge of the OB, then of course my example will have different CTE lines for each ball. I made the example such that all shots had the same ETC line, not CTE line. It's just as easy to make another diagram with the OB lined up such that they all have the same CTE line. For this modified example (same CTE line), how do you pivot differently for each of these shots using CTE?
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The 90/90 system is edge to egde/edge to center/edge to opposite edge. Of the shots you present 6 of them are an initial alignment of Edge to Edge and not Edge to Center I think. As such each line is actually different from the next due to distance.

As I said though I am really not qualified to discuss the steps to performing 90/90. I will get with Ron Vitello when he has time and learn it from him directly and when I feel confident using it then I will hopefully be confident discussing it.

I do not think it is possible to create a diagram where more than one set of balls has the same CTE line.

Lol, was this a joke? Are you stringing me along? Awaiting the rest of your post...
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No, it was 2am and I was getting very tired and losing my train of thought.

I don't have a lot of time to devote to this but obviously it's interesting to me. I also don't have a physics or math background. So it's very easy for me to get out of my depth when trying to describe the actual steps in detail.

All I can say is that it works and that there are others who have studied how it works in greater detail. They can obviously explain it to the point where they can teach it. I can't yet so asking me is likely to produce answers that are confusing, not necessarily right, flat out wrong or right but poorly explained. This is because I don't know how to teach CTE or 90/90 yet.

I just hooked up an overhead camera. Looking at the video from the first tests I can tell you that you are unlikely to learn anything new about the technique by watching me perform them on video.

However I will be happy to set up any shots that you like and shoot them so that you can see the motion and analyze it for yourself.
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