Are pool schools worth the money?

[Scott Lee]

Brian...You're right, and that's what GetMeThere apparently doesn't get. To become 'the best' requires many things (natural talent among them). Most important is giving up having a normal life to completely dedicate yourself to nothing but pool. Sadly, the majority of the people who have gone that route, that have ended up great players, in most cases, have nothing to show for it, other than great skill. Unfortunately, right or wrong, that alone doesn't guarantee you a living in this sport.

As several others have said, lessons are only worth it if you're willing to do the work afterwards. If you are willing, there is much to ge gained. Even champions have come through pool school, and learned new things.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

See, that is the issue. No one has said that doing lessons will make you an excellent player. But they can make you a BETTER player! I think most people just want to become better, not the BEST. You can't teach the qualities that make someone into the BEST, but you can help average people get better with practice and teaching.

Brian

 

[bfdlad]

You're in OK, it would be well worth it to take a long weekend in Dallas and go through Randy's school. I did it several years ago, but was in my 40's at the time, and it was the best thing I ever did for my pool game. I learned more in 3 days than I did in 30 years...and continue to learn to this day.

Steve

Randy is very good.

 

[GetMeThere]

Brian...You're right, and that's what GetMeThere apparently doesn't get. To become 'the best' requires many things (natural talent among them). Most important is giving up having a normal life to completely dedicate yourself to nothing but pool.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right.

Still, the fact remains (I assert) that the best players DIDN'T go to pool schools--and only players who are NOT the best did. If that's a fact, it's not one I'd be happy about if I were an instructor.

Another thing I'd be unhappy about as an instructor is being asked to answer what OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE I could offer to show that my instruction is actually worth the money. I would have to answer that there IS NONE--other than "testimonial evidence," which is generally good for some laughs, but not much else.

The bottom line rational conclusion is that we really have only the claims of instructors themselves to support the idea that they are worth hiring. That has been true in all performance sports. And the only times really useful objective information has been apparent has been when a single instructor has taken NUMEROUS neophytes and placed them into high professional standing. In fact that's rare--and it would be therefore reasonable to conclude that instruction that's really worth the price is also rare.

 

[JoeW]

It depends on how you prefer to learn. Most everything taught at a pool school I attended is in a book or on a CD. However, some things are learned better with hands on advice that boosts your knowledge and self confidence.

Throughout most of my life I have preferred to read (and study) the book first. This gets the basics out of the way. Then I find a good teacher and learn the subtle things I have missed.

However, many people do not have the independent drive to get educated first and then seek to refine their knowledge. That is why we have all sorts of schools.

Regardless of the way in which you prefer to learn you need to have questions when you go to a school. Unfortunately, many people go to a school (of any type) and say “teach me,” though they do not know what or why they want to learn. This results in canned programs for people who are ignorant of the topic. If you seek a school for dummies that is one approach, if you seek a school for those who seek to improve, that is another. They are both worth while for different reasons.

I had played pool for about ten years before attending a pool school and found the three day school was very much worth while. I learned a great deal that, with ten years experience, I had not thought about with the serious consideration that was needed.

 

[dr9ball]

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right.

Still, the fact remains (I assert) that the best players DIDN'T go to pool schools--and only players who are NOT the best did. If that's a fact, it's not one I'd be happy about if I were an instructor.

Another thing I'd be unhappy about as an instructor is being asked to answer what OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE I could offer to show that my instruction is actually worth the money. I would have to answer that there IS NONE--other than "testimonial evidence," which is generally good for some laughs, but not much else.

The bottom line rational conclusion is that we really have only the claims of instructors themselves to support the idea that they are worth hiring. That has been true in all performance sports. And the only times really useful objective information has been apparent has been when a single instructor has taken NUMEROUS neophytes and placed them into high professional standing. In fact that's rare--and it would be therefore reasonable to conclude that instruction that's really worth the price is also rare.

The same could be said of school teachers and college professors in most areas. There are very few students who have to pass a mastery test based on what they learn in school.

Sure you have achievement and certification tests, but not many take mastery tests. Now maybe your criticism of instruction only applies to pool.

Obviously, the pro players in the PGA, NFL, MLB and NBA didn't need any coaches during their development they just taught themselves right? So does your stance on instruction apply only to pool or does it apply to all forms of education/instruction?



I'm sure glad that I didn't try to learn everything on my own in life.

 

[GetMeThere]

The same could be said of school teachers and college professors in most areas. There are very few students who have to pass a mastery test based on what they learn in school.

Sure you have achievement and certification tests, but not many take mastery tests. Now maybe your criticism of instruction only applies to pool.

Obviously, the pro players in the PGA, NFL, MLB and NBA didn't need any coaches during their development they just taught themselves right? So does your stance on instruction apply only to pool or does it apply to all forms of education/instruction?

I exclude team sports from this discussion: there's no way they can be approached from an "on your own" perspective (well...aren't there baseball pitchers, and football kickers who HAVE pretty much learned their art on their own? I don't really know those sports well).

Regarding school teachers, music teachers, etc., etc. Yup, the same logic prevails: there's no objective way to determine whether their services are worth ANYTHING. It's just the way we do things, culturally--with NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that it's actually effective.

...and it's also true in academics and music that those who have excelled have mostly NOT come from the "teaching mills," but either from private "expert mentor" instructions and/or a lot of work on their own.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I'm 37 years old, been playing pool seriously since about 91. Don't really gamble much anymore but play a lot of tournaments. I've been wanting to improve my game a little and was just wondering if these schools I hear about are worth the money. Or is it to late? Can't teach an old signee tricks ?

IMHO if I was going to take LESSONS it would not be for some guy, or gal who travel around the country, was in my town for 3 or 4 days, and than was gone to their next venue.

I would want to find a local person, who I could have an on going program with over a couple of weeks or months. Plus maybe after the first lesson or 30-60 minute I would have the option of staying with the instructor, or deciding the chemistry was wrong without spending a lot of money on to find out the teacher had nothing new to teach.

I would avoid any instructor who insisted on a "series" or block of lessons without the option of pay as you go, a lesson at a time.

Another reason is simple, I know that students can only absorb so much information at a time, after about 20-60 minute you brain is flooded, and you can handle no more information or ideas. That is the reasoning for me feeling the way I do.

Plus let me interject another point, the GREAT WILLIE MOSCONI in his book, Willie Game stated he learn to play better by spending a great deal of time watching better Pool players, and doing what they did.

 

[Papa Red]

If the pro's thing it's worth the time to go see Randy G. in Dallas, then it should be worth it to you. Robbie went to Randy and it improved his skills, and you know how Robbie plays.

Good luck Chris.

 

[dr9ball]

I exclude team sports from this discussion: there's no way they can be approached from an "on your own" perspective (well...aren't there baseball pitchers, and football kickers who HAVE pretty much learned their art on their own? I don't really know those sports well).

Regarding school teachers, music teachers, etc., etc. Yup, the same logic prevails: there's no objective way to determine whether their services are worth ANYTHING. It's just the way we do things, culturally--with NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that it's actually effective.

...and it's also true in academics and music that those who have excelled have mostly NOT come from the "teaching mills," but either from private "expert mentor" instructions and/or a lot of work on their own.

I believe everyone is in agreement that an individual must do "a lot of work on their own" of course they need to know what to work on.

 

[peteypooldude]

I have never been to a pool school but I do know the importance
of stroke mechanics. Randy G and the other SPF instructors are
very knowledgeable and have the equipment and experience to
greatly help ones game. Stan Shuffett and his course is definitely
worth the money. I also think a player needs instructional information
such as that provided by Bob Byrnes. There are so many tidbits of
information a player needs that may never come up in conversation.
There are also so-called instructors who talk about things they know
nothing about such as R.... ..... I would love to fill in the blanks of that
name but there might be consequences for doing so. I will say the R
does not stand for Randy but he probably knows who I am speaking of.
Choose your instructor wisely , The ones I have mentioned above are
REAL instructors and IMO worth the money .

 

[GetMeThere]

Plus let me interject another point, the GREAT WILLIE MOSCONI in his book, Willie Game stated he learn to play better by spending a great deal of time watching better Pool players, and doing what they did.

I also think that's a key element to good playing--watching excellent players. I can remember a time when I would spend MANY HOURS in a pool hall waiting to get a chance to watch a good player play. Nowadays, people don't realize how lucky they are to be able to watch GREAT players play GREAT anytime they want to, on video....but it's even more effective to watch live, in person.

 

[GetMeThere]

I believe everyone is in agreement that an individual must do "a lot of work on their own" of course they need to know what to work on.

I can't think of a better way to discover "what to work on" than by doing "a lot of work on one's own."

 

[Neil]

................

 

[GetMeThere]

I just curious.... since you constantly want to use the lame argument that others testimonials, or opinions, should mean nothing, why do you keep giving yours????

Sorry you only see "opinion" when what I offer is REASONING.

 

[justadub]

Another thing I'd be unhappy about as an instructor is being asked to answer what OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE I could offer to show that my instruction is actually worth the money. I would have to answer that there IS NONE--other than "testimonial evidence," which is generally good for some laughs, but not much else.

The bottom line rational conclusion is that we really have only the claims of instructors themselves to support the idea that they are worth hiring. That has been true in all performance sports. And the only times really useful objective information has been apparent has been when a single instructor has taken NUMEROUS neophytes and placed them into high professional standing. In fact that's rare--and it would be therefore reasonable to conclude that instruction that's really worth the price is also rare.

Actual testimonials from people who have been through these schools lend enough credence to the argument as to whether or not such schools are "effective". People who have gone through a school, and have put the schools teachings to use are the best evidence; they are indeed real-world evidence. If they play better, read tables better, have better mechanics, etc, and those traits have become better developed from having gone to a pool school, what more could one ask for?

As for becoming "the best", I somehow doubt these schools have set that expectation amoungst their students. "The best" is a very small group, indeed. But there are countless millions of us playing pool (or golf, a similar argument) and those of us who aren't ever going to be considered "the best" still can become better players through proper instruction. That would constitute value, I contend. The extent of that value is up to the individual deciding on the school, and whether their level of interest and their ability to pay for said school can come to a meeting point.

 

[GetMeThere]

Actual testimonials from people who have been through these schools lend enough credence to the argument as to whether or not such schools are "effective". People who have gone through a school, and have put the schools teachings to use are the best eveidence; they are indeed real-world evidence. If they play better, read tables better, have better mechanics, etc, and those traits have become better developed from having gone to a pool school, what more could one ask for?

Testimonials are notorious for being unreliable. You will invariably find both "best ever" and "worse than being hit in the head" testimonials for ALL INSTRUCTORS.

First: To use testimonials objectively you would have to COLLECT THEM in a reliable and useful manner--simply not the case here. For NO pool school do we have a complete record of the opinions of all students. It's easy to end up with a biased sample: people who are unhappy with their instruction often prefer to say nothing. Many others will say "Oh, it was good" only because they already spent the money and don't want to consider too closely whether it was actually well spent.

Second: Even if you DID have a full, explicit, and well-designed reporting system from students, the problem of self-reporting of "improvement" is, and always has been, a very difficult data problem to resolve. People often have a very poor perception of how their performance changes, and the CAUSES of changes in their performance.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

I've seen young players run 100 balls only 2 years after they've picked up a cue for the first time. THEN they get a respectable instructor in order to squeeze out that little bit more skill or to get rid of some weaknesses. And most instructors that I've seen can't play that well themselves. I tend to only trust the ones that do play well.
If you want to improve your game:

- watch pros
- play with better players and learn from them
- practice in front of a mirror and/or record yourself on camera!
- question everything

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[mikepage]

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right.

Still, the fact remains (I assert) that the best players DIDN'T go to pool schools--and only players who are NOT the best did. If that's a fact, it's not one I'd be happy about if I were an instructor.

I think the claim is true, but I just shrug my shoulders at it as an instructor; it's kind of a loaded comparison..

Another thing I'd be unhappy about as an instructor is being asked to answer what OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE I could offer to show that my instruction is actually worth the money. I would have to answer that there IS NONE--other than "testimonial evidence," which is generally good for some laughs, but not much else.

This is fair. Outcome assessment in kinda hard to do. And it really should be done at various intervals after the training --one month, six months, a year...

And if you did see measureable improvenment, how do you know it's not
the same passion/drive that drove the students to the school in the first place that's responsible.

Hard questions to answer.

The bottom line rational conclusion is that we really have only the claims of instructors themselves to support the idea that they are worth hiring. That has been true in all performance sports. And the only times really useful objective information has been apparent has been when a single instructor has taken NUMEROUS neophytes and placed them into high professional standing. In fact that's rare--and it would be therefore reasonable to conclude that instruction that's really worth the price is also rare.

It takes a lot more than the sound fundamentals and moderate knowledge that can come from good instruction to create a champion. I don't think whether an instructor has coached/developed really top players is relevant to anything--unless you're a shortstop looking for a coach that is...

I agree the testimonial evidence from students is of limited value. But on the other hand, this is a game. It's what some people do for fun. And there's value in the journey itself. So when a student goes back to the fundamentals with an instructor and works at losing bad habits and developing new ones and feels a sense of accomplishment after time and feels good about his journey, those facts in and of themselves have value.

On top of this, I think students that have experienced the schools I know about and put in the time have improved more and often notably more than they would have with the same investment of time and energy without the school.

But you're right; I can't back up that belief

 

[softshot]

I can't think of a better way to discover "what to work on" than by doing "a lot of work on one's own."

I beat guys like you all the time..

I will say this I put in close to 8 hours a day for 2 years on my own.. and it was a frustrating demoralizing time but I really wanted to get good.

none of the better players offered any advice.. they were beating me at will and wanted to keep it that way.. thats the sad fact of the gambling culture in pool everything is a secret. and the people who beat you want to continue to beat you..everyone knows how everyone plays and no one ever gets any better.. they have been begging the same 7 ball from the same guy for the past 5 years.. and actually think that they will get better because they put a $20 bill on the light...if it hasn't worked in 5 years odds are good that it's not going to..

after a couple days one on one with Randy G.. I learned not only to practice but HOW to practice.. and I'm not talking specific drills.. although he gave me a starter set.. but more importantly how to structure a high intensity daily workout for maximum improvement...

since then my practice time dropped to 1-2 hours a day and I have been getting exponentially better.

you constantly focus on the "aiming method" sideline and that is your loss..

Randy did teach me an aiming system.. but I don't use it in its pure form.. I adapted it for my own purposes..and for what its worth I think ALL aiming systems should be used as training systems ..practice how YOU aim several times a week it's not what the steps are as much as practicing the same steps every time.. the almighty pre shot routine


anyone who practices setting up for a shot the exact same way following a prescribed set of steps will improve... and what those steps are is irrelevant.. its the fact that you are following set steps and training a routine to give your Brain a frame of reference so it can begin to build an orderly library of reference shots... picture a warehouse with a single mountain of books at its center. imagine trying to retrieve information on demand from that pile...any type of organization will improve your ability to get what you need when you need it..there are tons of ways to organize it alphabet.. color, subject, dewy decimal..its the fact that it IS organized..is whats important..


there are only 2 types of pool players... those of us who are getting better... and the rest of you..

have a nice day